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pressman
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: | 
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A new engine is needed for the AATV industry. We need a 4 stroke 50HP 6000 rpm water cooled, small, light weigth. Who makes one? Honda? |
ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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HEY PRESSMAN
all japanese car manufacturer makes 3-4 cylinders 1 litter (60 cu.in) engines that reach 6000 rpm...they even make it on diesel version and also with automatic tranny..however on the long run ( 5 year old from new) water cooled system it'sn't reliable unless extensive and periodic parts replacement (water pump seal, hoses, belt, termostat, heat exchange, liquid mixture,...)if you check the post area you will find plenty aatv on duty with more than 20 years old....that's because it's symplicity and chipper replacement component (generic chains, sprocker,...)direct automatic drive instead of the variable speed belt system will be nice...........for this aplication, on the long run i still choose the air cooled engine over the water cooled ones..... |
Eugene Kochnieff
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Hi Pressman,
I tend to agree with you, Isaac in 5 years most cars must do 100000 Km how much servicing would any of the air cooled AATV's now available need to do that sort of distance????
Bye for now Eugene. |
Attex Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Pressman: Many motorcycle engines will fit your criteria. Most are water cooled, put out big time horsepower and are very reliable. I wish I would have spent the money on one for my Argo instead of the piece of Tecumseh that is in it. I try to buy American whenever I can, but the cost of parts on this engine was crazy!!!! $70 for a cast piston!!!! What the hell is with that? I can only dream of having a Honda 750-4 in it now. I get sad just thinking about it, ha ha ha ha ha. |
ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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HEY EUGENE:
the "problem" with water cooled engines on the long run is just related on rubber parts natural degradation (seal, gasket, hoses) even if you don't use it at all..not to mention the chemistry reaction between liquid and metallic-rubber parts..rubber resist better proper oil aditives..and that's the reason for the air cooled engine to keep useful on the long run...ofcourse that a bigger displacement engine will last more than a smaller one doing the same aplication due to less stress due to lower average efford.........and due to the nature aplication of the aatv world ( to run on noman's land) you better get reability and simplicity on the component to minimize surprise breakdown..... |
liflod (Liflod)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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If you use a motorcycle engine, how do you deal with the transmission. Would you find the best gear and leave it there and use a torque converter. Or would you try to use a clutch,gear shift,throttle and keep your hands on both laterals?
I personally would try to keep it simple like using a Briggs or Kohler. They are known for their reliability,dependability and you can find parts anywhere you go. Lawnmower shops are one of my least favorite places, but they are usually alot cheaper than a motorcycle shop. |
Attex Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Liflod: I was going to use an airshifter on the left lateral. A big bike motor has lots of torque so you would not have to shift alot. I also briefly looked for a 350 Honda oddysey motor. That way I would not have to mess with all the shifting stuff. I was even thinking about a jack shaft but there is little you can weld to in my Argo. I finally wimped out and rebuilt the motor that came with it. I have not owned a bike in a long time, but I don't think they would ask $70 for a junk cast piston. And then the spring in my starter got hot. I went to pick one up and they said they would sell only the whole plate, not just one spring. The asking price $60!!!!! I wish I would have went with a sprint 3 cyl. now!!!! |
agnew
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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I picked up a sierra trail blazer and am about to fix or replace the motor, it's a 295 cc kohler
does anyone have any suggestions before I spend the money |
Sam Keys
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Check with Richard Clark he has kits to install a modern
4 cycle engine in a Sierra
Sam Keys |
r.wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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agnew,
a 2 stroke motor is more efficient. it is lighter, less moving parts and every 360 degrees is a power stroke. combine that with modern oils, transitor ignitions and fuels and you have a more effective motor. |
howard
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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rwolf
more effective, you got to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
are you trying to sell a 2 cycle or something?
You forgot to tell agnew to get hear plugs, I am laughing
so loud I think I may need those ear plugs. Ha Ha Ha....
2 cycles forever. |
Attex Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Wolf, I think you and I are the only ones in the world that like 2 strokes!!!! :-)
Long live smokers!!!!!! |
oldnatva
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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A-bob, Wolf;
No, you're not the only ones, but we're most definitely a minority. I guess no one else wants to put up with the noise, smoke, expensive oil & high-test gas, high maintenance and constant tweeking, not to mention you need to put mirrors on your machine to keep an eye on your friends and thier four-strokes.
besides, I think two-strokes sound good. What? what?
Don |
Steve Carrett (Stevo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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R Wolf and Attex Bob,
I will hang with you 2-stroke guys! 2-Strokes rock. The more I look into the 2-stroke, I am finding that if you keep them serviced, they are very reliable! Besides, there is MUCH less that can go wrong with them (less internal parts). The day I go to a 4-stroke is when they can come close to the performance of a 2-stroke.
Long live the screamer, smoker and high performance machine! |
Attex Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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OK, you guys got me on a roll now!!! I really don't get the "unreliable" two stroke deal? I've owned two and four stroke bikes and engines all my life and I can say that I haven't had very many problems with either.
I have had MORE problems with four strokes, and in my case thats a fact. The ONLY time my Attex fails to light is when the battery is dead!!!! Cold, hot or in-between is always starts. And that is with the same set of plugs in it when I bought it 5? years ago!!!!! Who knows how many years were on them before I bought it???!!!! Factory Attex plugs??????
The people I see on this board say that they haven't had very many problems with their two strokes are the same people that run 40 or 50 to 1 mix like I do.
The people that have problems with their two strokes are the people that seem to run the old 20 to 1 mixes.
Does anyone else see the trend here?
This is 2003 not the 60'ies. Do you still have an 8 track in your truck? Can you still fill up for $5.00??
The Beatles and Jim Morrison are gone and so should be the 20 to 1 mixes!!!!!
Now I feel much better!!!!! Thanks!!! He he he.... my ears are still ringing from my 2 stroke ride......I had two weeks ago!!!!! |
Damen T.Hill (Argoss)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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So do I, man 2 strokes rock (i just love that sound they make) it just say's I mean Business! I am currently pulling the engine from an old John Deere LiquiFire 440 For mine The 4 stokes suck All tourqe no speed, do a 2 stoke right and its got speed and tourqe
well i gotta 6by off |
oldnatva
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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The synthetic lubes are much better than the petro based stuff of the 60s, but the gas is awful! I go to the airport and buy the good stuff.
I didn't mean two-strokes were basically unreliable, but in my case, they've always taken more attention than their four-stroke cousins- Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Morrison's gone?
Don |
r.wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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hey howard,
like robert devaul said, there isn't nuthin like the smell of a 2 stroke in the morining. so if you are such man why don't you go and tell him differenet to his face :) |
Steve Carrett (Stevo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Hey you guys...
I have been looking into 2-strokes even more now and am beginning to believe that with electronic ignition the 2 stroke would be better than a 4 stroke (that is my opinion anyway). I am thinking now that the main thing that lets the 2 strokes down a little is the old points and condenser system of ignition. My dad has a chainsaw, motor mower and brush cutter all with 2 strokes that have electronic ignition. I know that the brush cutter and chainsaw are well over 15 years old. They have been absolutely "Flogged" with hard work on a large property. He has never had any problems in all those years. Oh, I take that back... The brush cutter had to be taken in for a service due to difficult starting, but that was the diaphram in the carb being old and damaged. That is all!!
Now, the previous motor mower he had before this one (which I think is about 10 years old) had points and condensor ignition system. With that one, you had to have it serviced regularly because of the points.
Does anyone agree with me here? I really feel that doing away with points, you would have an awesome machine!
The smoke soon disapears once the engine has warmed up a little anyway, so I don't understand the complaint there.
I know that I would much rather have something that can get along at a fast pace in case I got into trouble. Could you imagine being way out in the woods and having to get back in a hurry with a new Max or Argo? |
Dave Johnston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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As with WW II fighters...the debate of water cooled vs air cooled goes on. Water cooled engines have a greater operating range, they can take HOT and COLD better, but if you lose the water, you are hosed. (pun intended). Air cooled are more temperature sensitive, but when they run, they run and you do not have to worry about over heating. The Question I Ask, which never seems to get covered, is how long can a water cooled engine run WITHOUT the water if the radiator system fails?. I think some of the small water cooled engines are water cooled only because it makes them run quieter. |
r.wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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stevo, you make alot of sense. i had neighbour that was a tree hugger. she would show her disapproval of the 2 stroke engine by putting her scarf over her nose as she'd walk by. but moments later she would race her car down the road indangering playing children.
i use to critize diesel buses, but lQQk at the passegers verses pollution.
goverment emmission tests against not smoke but the dioxsides and stuff ya can't smell and see.
but those same blasted dang tree huggers will barbaque and burn campfires all weekend long! |
Damen T.Hill (Argoss)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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I work on small engines, old two strokes are much better than the new ones. My personal chainsaw is a McCoulgh MAC 5-10 ( can you 1970's anyone?) and the new mccoulghs last about a year then they shite out, same with 2 stroke snowmobile engines my ccw was made in 73 and still runs great to this day, can't yet comment on my liquifire's engine as my truck got totaled two weeks ago the day I was supposed to go pick it up.
As for engines I would get a 2 stroke out of a newer snowmobile and weld up a hedder and mini expansion chamber. if you do it right they have low end tourqe and way high end power mine does.
our just build your self up a 4 stroke racing snowmobile engine can you say hmmm....200hp in a argo (can you say next winters project) hell yes |
Damen T.Hill (Argoss)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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woah guy's better yet a twin turbo subaru engine, I have one out in my garge just sitting their. this has possibiltys ooooo..... better yet an all aluminum 396
with a 1471 blower, damn you can tell i have been working on the drag truck all day. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Damen, I told this to someone else on this board, use Nike's slogan- JUST DO IT!!!
Build it, then let me drive it! |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Damen, one other thing. What do you think would happen if one of your chains snapped while hypothetically doing your death defying run?? Just imagine for a second what it would be like with the wind blasting through your hair, and suddenly, BBBAAAANNNNGGGG!!!!!! YOu look back in time to see the back floor board flying 50 feet into the air and whats left of your chain and sprocket being launched like a missile through the air-- My god its a beautiful sight!!
(Damen, just for s#*%s and Giggles!!!) But seriously, what would you do? |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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stop faster than he wanted to.!!!!!!!!! |
barryhh3f
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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What we really need in this industry is a nice little steam turbine motor. They put out max torque at low RPM and will feed on anything that is liquid and combustible.
This is the short version of what I just wrote.
You don't want to read the full version. |
Howard Hoover
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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I think what we really need is a horizontally opposed engine like a volkswagen that is low profile that would fit in between the sides of the body that way you would have more storage space unlike the current max 4 or 2 design that sticks up so high. Imagine an engine that would stick up no higher than the underside of your seat wich would mean a lower center of gravity and more stable on hills! |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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What is the absolute max size engine you could put in an ARGO without having to change the setup of everything else (tranny, brakes, chains, etc.) What is the max horse power you could have in one of these and not damage the tranny, clutches, chains? and anything else that would be affected. Also, how fast can one of the double rc50 run before it becomes a problem? |
barryhh3f
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Les see, flat motor that will fit in a Argo/Max size AATV frame. That pretty much describes the engine in my 1971 BMW R/75/5 motorcycle. The engine is a 750 CC that produced 55+ HP with leaded high test gas. It will give you all the reliability you could ever want in an AATV. Not cheap but I can still buy parts from the factory for it. Parts are right in line with marine and airplane parts costs. And no ”NO” this is not an offer to cannibalize by bike for an experiment. Realistically you mite think about the motor from a Russian Ural. It is a close copy of the BMW /2 series engines and many parts are inter-changeable with real BMW parts. |
barryhh3f
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Just for giggles, I checked the Ural America web site, and found that they sell a complete 750 CC engine for $2785 |
Attex Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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I agree with you Howard. I think you are right on with a low CG pancake engine. The problem is no big manufacture makes cheap small pancake engines. Bummer........I think that would be killer!!!!
David: There is one guy out there with a Sprint motor in his Argo. Heard rumors that it ran killer, but had belt problems. In my mind these things can handle 150+ HP with no problems if you can get a belt to handle it.
As far as the chain goes. I did 138MPH on my 1100 once. All drag bikes that I have seen have single #50's on them. How fast do they go? Too fast for my 8X8!!!!!!!!!1 |
Howard Hoover
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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I have done a lot of research on this subject and I have looked at a lot of different engines even Motorcycle engines and Aircraft engines I haven't got much in the way of dimensions like valve cover to valve cover dimensions for the motorcycles but looking at the crank stroke most that I have seen are bigger than a stock Volkswagen crank which is 69 mm and that usually means that the valve cover to valve cover dimensions would be greater than a stock VW.I have found that the volkswagen engine is the most versatile of the ones that I have looked at I even looked at the Corvair engine which would be ok but I think that it would have almost too much power and it weighs more! You also have to look at fuel cunsumption, the Corvair even uses Volkswagen jugs since Corvair doesn't make them anymore. I even looked at the possibility of only using 3 of the corvairs 6 cylinders leaving one whole side off this would narrow the engine more than enough but might not have enough power to suit me. I was told this was something that snowmobile racers used to do but I haven't found any information about the subject on the internet. A stock VW engine is about 30 inches wide from valve cover clip to valve cover clip and can be narrowed. If you use a type 3 engine, from the bottom of the oil pan to the highest point on the engine is about 17 inches high. The
only drawback to the type 3 is they say that they don't cool as well as a bug engine type 1 but the bug engine is about 10 inches taller than the type 3 which were found in VW station wagons and fastbacks and I don't know what all else but a type 3 is now available in turn key form from GEX for about 2250.00 keep in mind that the engine mounts and cooling tins and carbs on this engine would have to be modified (because they stick out past the valve covers) along with who knows what all else. My idea is to move the carbs inward, trim the cooling tins and make my own engine mounts. This would be a must to get down to the approximate 30 inch valve cover to valve cover width I'm not exactly sure on the width it's kind of hard to measure by yourself. You can narrow the engine even more by enlarging the displacement of the VW This would be done by ordering 90.5 mm pistons called STROKER PISTONS they are an off the shelf item and would narrow your engine by about another half inch this would require machining of the block and you would have to have the jugs machined also. You could narrow the engine even farther by using shorter than stock connecting rods but this is very expensive since custom rods are about 800.00 for a set. Another option would be to use a smaller crank from a 1200 or 1300 cc engine I don't know the exact size of the crank about 64 or 65 mm this would help to narrow the engine a few mm but would decrease your displacement. I think one of the most challenging things about this will be to get the hot air out of the body it might not be as bad as I am thinking though. I was planning on using A VW transmission, but if you turned the engine side ways you could use a T-20 and then you might not have to do any mods to narrow the engine. but from what I have heard the belt slips with too much power at least I read the article about the guy who had the 3 or 4 cyl motor in his ATV It might have been the one with the Sprint motor. |
Howard Hoover
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Has anybody ever heard of anyone using bottled gas
(PROPANE)in their ATV? |
Attex Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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I haven't; and in my opinion it would not be the best thing to do. |
Howard Hoover
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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I don't think it would be a good idea either but you never know what people have tried until you ask. Different people try all kinds of different things I guess thats part of what makes people different. I know some drag racers use it and it only costs penny's per pass compared to dollars for gas. I don't think you could get a big enough tank in an atv though Our forklift tanks will last about 8 to 10 hours depending on how you drive. |
Attex Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Thats very true Howard. The tank would have to be very big. And that tank is going to be very heavy. Not good for an AATV. If I remember right propane has about 1/3 less BTU's than gas. About a 1/3 bigger with the same range.
There was two guys around here with propane setups on their drag cars. They would always get smoked because the propane had low BTU's and just did not make the power.
Around where I live, the propane is just as expensive or more at some times of the year than gas, even though is has a 1/3 less BTU's. All those tanks you saw in the back of pickups in the 70's, they are all gone now!!!!
O, and thanks for the reminder, I have to go fill up my 25 gallon tank for $45 bucks..........gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!! |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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an aatv on bottled gas, hhmmm
wouldent that be like an extreem portable grill? |
Mike
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Dave
That is the part that EM2000 forgot, we got them...Ha Ha!
Mike |
Howard Hoover
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Has anyone tried the 30HP Air cooled Generac Engine I saw yet? I was just wondering about it's performance and how much they cost?
thanks Howard Hoover |
Doc Pedresen (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 67.40.104.20
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:50 pm: |
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Jumping into the fray: Just a note on motorcycle engines guys; Water cooled is an option for an enclosed engine, air cooled is not. Air cooled motorcycles depend on the movement of the motorcycle to cool the motor. You would have to add a major fan set up to chill an aircooled. Just went through this. I'm building a beefy tracked log hauler roughly copying a Jonsered Iron Horse, but without the $10K price tag. Started with a Chinese copy of a Honda GPX-300 13hp electric start I got off E-bay for $335. (Current pricing right now about $290) I then added an old Massey Ferguson MF-7 garden tractor 3 speed transaxle I E-bayed for $100 delivered. Carefull shopping of separate torque converter parts neted me an equivalent of a Comet model 40 for about $45. Add Jackshaft stuff and a passle of pneumatic wheels off Harbor tool sales and I'm up to frame steel and track. Track material will be commercial conveyor belt material from McMaster Carr in LA. Rather than ramble further I'll bow out now till I have at least enough actually assembled to brag about.
Doc |
Howard Hoover
Junior Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.160.90.144
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:23 pm: |
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VW air cooled engines have fans on them already. I'm using a type 3 in my project lower profile!
As long as it sucks cool air in from the outside there shouldn't be a problem, if there is I can always add an extra electric fan or two. I'd like to see some pics of your machine when you get it done or as it progresses. Thanks Howard |
Dennis F. Saskowski
Member
Username: Sasko
Post Number: 47
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 24.48.103.90
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 03:31 pm: |
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Howard one of my club members ran propane in his max 4 equiped with a horiz. motor from a floor sweeper.His tank was the size of a tow motor tank. He carried coleman propane bottles as a back-up and had to use them at a Humphery run approx. 25 mi. long or 4hrs.You might see his mach. in photo's on this site,red max 4 with tank straight up.To date he changed out motor and runs gas.His buddy helped him,you know the guy with a 4cyl. japenese car motor in his max 4,so there is your liquid cool with a big charging system and it's quite too. Oh yeah, still floats!!!! |
Howard Hoover
Junior Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.160.81.44
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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I'm not going to use propane there is too much involved in converting plus the tank takes up too much space. Thanks Howard |
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