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fred sain
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: | 
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I do not post very often, but it seem,s to me that almost every discussion always turns out to be Max v Argo. I agree with Richard 100% quit bashing! The 6X6 market has a bad reputation from all the machines that were built in the 70,s. I have been an Argo dealer for TEN YEARS! and go to lots of shows, at least half the people I talk to refer to the older machines, and how unreliable they were. Believe me that is hard to overcome. My store has done a ton of advertising in our territory, it is not very effective. Our sales depend on our customers, and what they say about us and our machines. You guy,s are the advertising for this market, you know what you have so tell those other guys what they are missing. 6X6 & 8X8,s RULE! |
Chris
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Fred, I agree with you on your points, but there is more to it as well. The Max and Argo machines have their place and they do the job, but they are really low tech devices and they cost a lot for what you get. If you look at the utility 4x4 quads, they have great engines, great cooling systems, great transmissions, etc etc etc. The Max machines (I really can't speak for Argos) are a big tub with a ladder frame, bolted on axles, a lawn mower engine and an antigue transmission powering a chain drive system. I'm not bashing Max at all, I just bought my Buffalo afterall, and bought it for more money than a Utility Quad. The perception is however that these machines are too low tech and too expensive for what you get. Everybody loves my Buffalo, EXCEPT when they look at the mechanics, then they look surprised that it works. Simple is a good thing, I'm not bashing it but I think these machines could be brought up to higher level of technology and refinement. It was hard for me to buy my Buffalo knowing what's in it, it seems (to me) that it was EXTREMELY expensive for what I got. For the same price (actually much less) I could get a strong utility quad that has much more guts to it. The Max does what I need better, and that was the short of it, I love the machine, but I think it was drastically overpriced for what it is. (NOT a Max Bash!!!) |
matt435
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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look at the new argos, They are very well built. You get what you pay for with a argo. Matt |
fred sain
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Chris I agree in part with you. There is always room for improvement. I have not taken a good look at the Max constuction for the last few years. So I am not aware of what changes they have made. Argos have changed a couple of key items, but still a very simple design. I would like to see some things changed, but not to the level that any of the Maxs or Argos become to complicated for the normal person to work on. |
Chris
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Fred, I like simple too and keeping it simple allows normal people to service the machines, this is all good. I look at the new Utility Quads, and they are extremely refined machines, but they are also extremely complex. My big grief with the Maxs (and maybe Argos, don't know) is that they're great machines, but seem really expensive for what you get. For that much money, I'd expect them to be much more refined than they are. For what they are, I'd expect them to cost much less then they do. I expect that Recreatives doesn't sell that many of them, and that's why they're so expensive, low volumes = high prices. If they could increase their sales volume, they might be able to allow more reasonable prices. Volumes must increase first. |
Chris
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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What about helping out the guys at Recreatives? Word of mouth is one thing, but what about helping them out with a little marketing as well? (Same applies for Argo, but I think ODG is a little bigger and more established). I happen to know a Whiz bang photographer in the area who owns a Buffalo too... Oliver? Oliver? Are you listening? Would you help with a photoshoot to help promote the Max? You live close enough to visit RI if you wanted. (Like how I volunteer someone else to do something?) |
Harry Dusseau (Dirtyharry)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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You must take into consideration the volume of machines sold vs. demand. The only way R.I. or Argo/ODG will get everyone into one of their vehicles is to mass produce them by the thousands and sell them dirt cheap. I can't speak for ODG, as I haven't seen where the Argos are made. I have been to R.I.'s plant however, and I can tell you that it is a little, family-like operation, with a handful of employees working out of a relatively modern-yet-small facility. These guys are not Ford or GM!
There's no way they could currently produce the number of machines needed to have a "high volume = low price machine" business. They would need to build or lease a huge, new facility and hire a ton of skilled workers. Simultaneously, they would have to organize a nationwide dealership network, that would consist of more than just a few guys with a couple of Maxes in their garages, writing up bills of sale at their kitchen tables. They would also need to launch an extensive TV/Radio/Print/'Net advertising campaign to thoroughly saturate the proper markets for these machines; driving home the idea that you simply cannot live without an amphibious all-terrain Max 6x6.
All this would cost millions upon millions. A little company like R.I. simply can't do it. I'm sure they'd love to sell 10,000 machines a year, but unless Bill Gates drops a few sacks 'o cash in their laps, it's just not gonna happen. In effect, R.I. and the entire amphib industry are stuck in a Catch-22.
Last but not least... the few people out there who do know about amphibs probably mainly remember the machines from the 70's. Likely too, they remember how crappy many of those machines were. There's a substantial amount of negativity to overcome with regards to the junk buggies of yesteryear vs. today's modern AATVs.
The average consumer isn't likely to plunk down a wad of cash when the only thing he's heard about these machines is how crappy they were (and maybe still are?), unless you practically gave them away. But then if you do "give them away," who's going want to pay full retail for one once the market's been flooded with the low-cost "Say Hello to the Max" introductory models? History would end up repeating itself.
What can be done??? Speaking for myself, back last year when the multi-state Powerball Lottery was up around 250million, I bought a ticket. If I won, I planned to either ask R.I. if I could become a partner with my cash going to do just what I mentioned above, or I would've tracked down the tooling for the old Attex AATV and resurrected that company (my personal choice!). Anyone got a bankroll with lotsa zeroes in it that would care to make R.I. an offer?
My $.02
Harry |
Oliver (Digipix)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Chris, I could help out and I'd be glad to help with a photoshoot... but Harry here makes lots of good points. Gotta hate a catch 22. |
P.J.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Harry is right. Rest assured that if there was a perceived significant demand for AATV's then Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda, Bombardier or Polaris would buy R.I. or Argo out and mass produce them. For now this is a niche market. Perhaps some day when more people realize that these are truly 12 month a year work/play vehicles, demand will increase. As for now, WE are having all the fun!
P.J. |
BILL
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Dirty Harry:
I agree with your post. You had me laughing though most of your opinions above.
Of course, there is always truth in humor.
POINT -
When you said that buy flooding the market with an introductory model, the AATV market would run the risk of history repeating itself. Kind of like adding too much air to a fire and putting it out. I'm not sure if I agree with that point. There are hundred of thousands of Quad owners out there who would purchase an AATV if they knew more about it. You have to remember that they are ignorant of these vehicles. It's like steroid use of the 1970's in the opposite effect. All the professional athletes and anyone who was anyone big and bad had to have it. Once the medical profession let the general population know the real nasty side effects (death), then football players and weight lifters STOP using them.
AATVs are the opposite. We want people to START using them! Everyone thinks that an amphib is bad and a waste of time and money. Maybe a real cheap introductory model is just what the market needs to get more of the stingy quad owners to "come on over." RI and ODG won't like this much, but here goes: EVOLVE WITH THE CHANGE IN TECHNOLOGY!!! Just like the 3 wheelers of the 70s up into the monster quads of today. The problem with building better vehicles, is the increase of price. This is where Triton Preditor is having a tough time of it. Modern technology, tough vehicle, exteme maneuverability, everything on the mark for the new wave of AATVs. One little problem though; the base model costs $15,000. Isn't there a way to put that package into a small unit like a Max II or a BigFoot for about the same money as the current Max and BigFoot?
The death of the AATV Market was a combination of "the junk buggies of yesteryear" and the dirt on the coffin was the Japanese oil companies birthing the ATC. The American people were completely in awe the first time we laid eyes on those big bubble wheeled dirt toys. Japan has only made them better too. Quads now are like hummer bikes. They are mean and nasty compared to the 1980s, and everyone knows it. Now is the time to RE-birth the AATV. The quad market is damn near saturated. People might be looking for something different, or even something BETTER!
There are many mechanical engineers out of college with modern training looking for a job. I'm sure that there isn't much in the budget to take the one or two steps back, but otherwise there can't be 10 steps forward.
BILL |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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bill i hope them pencil pushers start with the little things like better moderen brakes, prehaps a floater with a suspention at a reasonable cost, somthing with a few cupholders prehaps! |
Wishful
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Some additional Features:
1. Modern Brakes that work well
2. Suspension would be nice
3. Non-Skid Steer mechanism, I like the turning ability, but it's pretty harsh on the ground, a non-skid steer machine would have a place too.
4. 12V power plug on the dash
5. Better use of the hollow cavity under the seats and stuff (especially on a Buffalo Truck, Max II/IV aren't as bad)
6. Better Drain Plugs, like my boat has
7. Lower center of gravity
8. Easier to shift (forward/Reverse) Transmission
9. Affordable Track System |
E L McKenney
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I finally got a look at my first ARGO at the Iowa State Fair and while I was trying to be objective in my comparison to my 25+ year old max, I liked the double roller drive chain from the transmission, the larger chains on the wheel drive sprokets and the hydraulic brake controls, all in all it appeared to be a well engineered machine, I was immediately put off by a salesman telling me that my MAX IV was no comparison, that I supposedly couldn't get to my chains without taking the body apart, my floor panels lift right up; that I had no room to get to my rear chains, my engine hatch lifts right off and they have to work around their engine through a small hatch to get to their front chains. I came away without any better Idea of how well their machine worked with a 16hp engine as compared to my 47hp engine other than they said that it would be too fast to be safe and they said it would be too noisy, when I pointed out that the noise was behind me in a MAX and that they were able to handle the speed they quit talking. I stopped by the booth to hopefully learn more but instead I came away disgusted that a man could bad mouth his competition without knowing what he was talking about. The supremacy of the two will never be answered but lets at least be willing to talk. |
Chris
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I've seen an old beat up Argo at a farm, compared to my Max, I'd say it's a little higher tech and maybe a little better engineered. Max leans toward the simple side: Have welder, have chain, have engine, make go. Argo seems to be a little ahead in that category, but both have their strengths and weaknesses. I bought my buffalo to carry lots of stuff through the woods on hilly areas, that bed is great. If I needed to carry more people, I'd consider the Max IV or the Argo something with lots of seats. I'm not sure why so many people seem to want their machine to be better than the other, it's not religion! (ok, maybe it is to some people ;-) I've had similar encounters with uninformed sales people, I've even been told that Argo is out of business by a Max dealer! Now that's uninformed, and no I didn't by my Max from him. |
fred sain
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Guy,s I like a lot of the input for changes. I don,t know about RI,s factory capabilities, I do know that ODG (Argo) is selling everything that they can make. I placed and order for stock units in May and will not get the machines until the middle of Sept. With there sales that strong the calls for changes do not get much response.
Chris as far as the price I think if you really take a good look at all the parts that go into one of these machines, Max or Argo , if you started trying to buy every part you would find that it would cost a bundle. Argo,s 6X6 four passenger starts at around $6000. Max two passenger even less. This is just my opinion, but I have always felt these prices to be very in line with the bigger 4X4s. |
jerrypulda
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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hello!
i live here in wisconsin, where basically the atv laws are so stringent that i wonder if i'll ever see the day where a regular 6X6 will be considered a legal atv. the 6X's are too wide, too heavy, and have a bench seat. believe me, i'm always adding my two cents to other forums, hoping to spread the word about how perfect these machines are for all around fun. by the way, i sell for a living, and if i could legally ride one of these on our trails i would consider becoming a dealer, because with my view of the 'perfectness' of these babies i know i'd sell 'em like popcorn....
when you look at the fact that a family of 4 can have a great camping weekend in one of these, the costs of outfitting everyone with a quad doesn't compare....
any wisconsin aatv'ers out there want to join my crusade in trying to get these things legalized?? |
Taxed Out
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Jerry, since when did 6x6's become illegal in the Badger State? I think you mean recognized by the DNR so that you have to register them like you have to register a atv, snowmobile and boat. Did you know that in order to use an atv in your state even on your own property unless you actually use it for legitimate agricultural use that you have to register it through the DNR? It's the same with a snowmobile. There are some exceptions ie, governmental agencies are exempt.
You have a good thing going in your state by not having to pay out more money for registration. You do know that when you file for initial registration that you then have to pay a sales tax on an atv, boat and snowmobile, don't you? You pay the tax on anything purchased new from a dealer but what about that almost new Max or Argo from the guy down the street that sells it for $3000 less than he paid for it because he needs the money?
If your state would allow any off road machine to be used on state owned or controlled land, I would be all for registration but they don't and never will.
The State atv trails are really nothing more than snowmobile trails that get groomed every now and then. There is an exception though, Bong Rec area has an atv trail set up for atvs.
Really, do you want to pay out more money for the right to put on sticker on your 6x6?
What about the aatv user that drives his 6x6 on private property. Why should he have to pay another tax disguised as registration fees. Don't Wisconsin residents pay high enough taxes in your state as it is?
Besides, most county atv trails don't restrict 6x6 use, unless the local township passes an ordinance against it.
Just my two cents but my out of state 6x6 has WI boat stickers already just so I can use it on some private ponds because the DNR oversees that too. |
jerrypulda
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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taxed out, i'm hearing you all the way on this one....i know i pay my fair share of taxes, and one thing i can't stand is how many different taxes are applied to one item (sales tax, reg tax, license tax, sales tax again when it's sold, etc, etc). licensing fees, surcharges, whatever they call them, they're all taxes.
all i'm thinking is it would just be nice to have the 6x classified as an atv to avoid any trail hassles from big brother. |
Taxed Out
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Jerry, a couple of months back, I was in WI and I happened to talk to a warden who was working in the area. I was curious about the registration issues. I asked him if he knew of any proposed legislation to require aatv's to be registered. He said that he knew of nothing being proposed and he said that he doubted that the lawful definition of an atv would be changed in the near future to allow aatv's to be registered and be allowed on the state trails.
I asked him what would happen to a 6x6 operator if he were caught driving on a state atv trail. The warden told me that the operator would be charged with a state charge of trespass.
Currently aatv's in WI are treated under state law as non-specific machinery similar to construction equipment, farm tractors, logging skidders etc. They can be operated along the roadway (read your state statute definition of what a roadway really is) as long as it displays a reflectorized, triangular SMV sign on the rear. Take them on a state atv trail and you are breaking the law.
Many years ago, atv's were not allowed on the state snowmobile trails either. Because there were so many illegal incidents of atv use on the state trails and the law could not be enforced practically, the state laws were changed to require atv's to be registered and subsequently legitimatize their use on the state trails. That is how WI handled the "atv problem".
I happpen to like using my 6x6 in WI on private land owned by friends and family. I just think it's wrong to have to register a machine used only private land.
I am an avid hunter and fisherman in your state. On state owned land, no motorized equipment is allowed to be operated. On state owned public hunting and fishing areas, a hunter cannot even ride a bicycle to get to his favorite stand. Talk about stringent laws! I suppose a person with a physical disability would be allowed to hand operate a wheelchair but use an electric wheelchair and watch out. If disabled persons could drive an aatv on state land to enjoy the outdoors, then I also would give my support to aatv registration in WI. As I stated in my previous post, motorized vehicle use on state land in WI will never happen. Anybody else out there with thoughts on this subject? How do other states handle it? Again, my two cents! Thanks Route 6x6 and Richard for this board. |
6x6 birth
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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This is to P.Js's comment on the quad companies buying out Max and Argo. I disagree. If the 6x6 market to expand that big, what I think would happen is that the quad companies(being trend followers that they are), would see this as the "next" great idead in atvs, and would began to produce their own 6x6s. This, in turn would cause quads to decline, as companies like Honda and yamaha began to build aatvs. What you would have is the death of quads, and the rebirth of 6x6s. It wouldn't matter if Honda built them, just as long as the 6x6 became king once again. If the more advanced companies like Honda did this, you would see all sorts of different aatvs, not just what you are use to seeing. Its truly sad the the 6x6 industry vanished like it did, but this will happen to the quad industry also. All it takes is a new idead, or someone realizing the greatness the 6x6 once again, and there you have it. |
argo one
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I have a question about the so called "junk buggies" of the 70's. Why do you all keep calling them that? I mean, what made them so much junk? If anybody has the answer, please respond as soon as possible. I have read all the old aatv reviews from the past on this site, and I don't see why you all keep calling them junk. Also, all you guys from way out there need to come down here to Kentucky. I know you all think we are dumb hicks, but we don't have to pay anything to drive any kind of atv in the mountains or trails. All we pay for is the machine itself, and that's it. There is no insurance costs, or anything. The only thing I wish we had here, was more aatvs. |
bigkodiak
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Argo One
The reason everyone has a love/hate relationship with old machines boils down to technology.
Old machines were engineered with what is now outdated technology. As the number of companies manufacturing AATV's were so plentiful, people were reverse engineering what was in place. Many made few variations of the design and simply rolled out a machine.
As more manufactures closed their doors the remaining companies began working on their designs, where to improve their weak spots, listening to what their customers wanted etc.
Attex was on top of this probably better than anyone else. If you look at a modern day MAX and compare side by side to an Attex you will see alot of similarities.
Technology has brought us where we are today and the BIG 2 will hopefully continue to improve designs. One day we will probably be complaining about that junky 2002 model.
Russ |
Argo One
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Thinks for the answer, it helped me out, but why call them junk? What do you mean by reverse engineering? I would like to know hat really casued them all those companies to close down. You talk about technology, but isn't Argo amd max using the same basic tech as the old ones? |
Argo One
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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As you talk of technology, it makes me wonder why that people would hate something so simple to fix and use. If it were that simple then why wouldn't it be simple to improve? I have another question. Do you think ATVs have taken a step back from 6x6 ATVs to quad ATVs? I understand that quads are technologicly advanced, but they can't even do half the thinkgs a 6x6 can do. |
ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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HEY ARGO ONE:
between the first aatv ('60-'70) and newer version the technology keep altmost the same on concept layout but changes are on type of material and thickness of material used on the build up process....for example the chain drive on first aatv runs on ansi 40 system.....this system simple cann't hold the torque imposed on hard drive ( after all those aatv are extreme machines!!)...newer version improved with ansi 50 or ansi 60...about aatv skin they just "beefed up" the body structure to be more tear resistant....( that applied for abs, fiberglass or hdpe)..also on type of steel applied to axle, frame, bearings,)....not to mention the tire improvement.....that ballon tire rim where excellent fos suspension but very poor on abrasive, sharp object....new 4-6 ply rating ones with very agresive pattern make a diferent story...now is time for replace tire suspension system by seat suspension upgrate!!! |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I would like to raise a point. Conventional atv are the quads. However, 6x6 have been around for some time now, and were once popular right?? Look again at the quad industry. I have seen ads for 6 wheeled quads, making them 6x6 vehicles. I know they aren't skid steer, but they are 6x6. Maybe they are taking a thing or two from our market of amphibs. |
Argo One
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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They might be taking a thing or two, you never know. I read a review of the Polarious 6x6, and it said that it plowed through mud and climbed hills that stoped the 4x4's. I like the Polarious 6x6. It doesn't flaot, but it is 6-wheel drive, and it seems to be a very well bulit machine. To behonest, the quads are well built machines, but its their abilities I question, not their build quality. For the same price of an Argo, a quad doesn't carry as many people and gear, and lacks the safty of an Argo. One thing that bothers me. An Argo Vanguard is rated to tow 1200 pounds, but an Arctic Cat is rated to pull 1400 pounds. I wonder how that quad is able to match the 6x6. it makes me fear the 6x6's will be overshadowed by the quads for towing power, and then whats the since in buying a 6x6? Please help me out. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I think there is a difference in defining "pull" or able to "tow". A Max will pull 1000 pounds dead weight. That means, have something that weighs 1000 pounds without wheels and a Max will drag it. Being able to tow means put 1400 pounds in a trailer and the machine can handle it. I'm pretty darn sure that if you hook an artic cat up to 1400 pounds of concrete blocks on a pallet that it will sit there and spin its wheels. |
Argo One
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well that is true, but then again, someone one on one of these posts said that the quad company's ads were nothing but sales fluff, so maybe they want people to belive that quads are better than they really are. Who Knows? I do know that no quad could carry the same kind of weight on its back that an Argo or other 6x6 can. |
newmax
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I have a max 1v. I am looking to buy a 4 wheeler for my son this spring. he rides with his friends often, they all have 4 wheelers. my son doesn't really care for the 6 wheeler it is to slow and he cant keep up with them. I can tell you that if speed is not your main concern and you don't mind the bumps then there is nothinglike the 6 wheelers. Mine has a top on it and when they all get back from riding all his friends are cold and wet. |
MaxRules (Brandon_price)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Fred has a good point on towing but capacity is usually determined by how well the vehicle can stop the load. Most limits are determined by the lawyers and is not really the maximum load possible.
Terrain also makes a big difference. The 4x4 would spin before a 6x6 in loose terrain such as dirt. The same load on pavement would turn out a different result. My Max would run out of power before it could ever turn the tires on pavement. My Scrambler 4x4 would white smoke all four tires and doesn't ever run out of power in any practical situation. A 4x4 will pull more when it has solid traction.
Stopping is the main thing. My truck will pull a huge load with the V8 and five speed tranny. I always have to allow quite a bit more stop time and it does get dangerous when overloaded. |
Argo One
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I would like to see any quad try to pull or tow what the Argo conquest 8x8 can. I really don't belive they can. I don't care what anybody says, so if someone has ever pulled or towed more with a quad than a Conquest 8x8, tell me. I am so sick of this trash. I am going to set this little debate straight. quads aren't safe, they don't have the ability to keep you dry, they don't float, they don't have 6 or 8 wheel drive, they most certainly can't carry more than two people. If anyone who reads this, is thinking of buying an off-road machine, don't buy a quad, you will regret it. If you have to spend a little more, and go the extra mile, do it. 6x6 rules. Who is going to try and use an ATV to pull or tow on the road, that is what a truck is for. It was said that a 6x6 can do better on dirt, so why would you want to buy a quad for that kind of work? Farm work and such. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Argo One,
I totally agree with you, like many others here. The ONLY thing quads have is speed, which I believe is useless when you're out in the jungle anyway. I don't know of anyone who races their machine at 90km/h through the woods and over rocks.
If I wanted to race down dirt roads I can take my truck and beat your quads anyday! If I needed speed to get over that sand dune, I'd bring my dune buggy and beat your quads anyday.
But what are you going to do when I go over deep snow with my Conquest? What are you going to do when I cross that lake with my Conquest? What about that swamp, bog or marsh? Are you going to TRY and FOLLOW my on your quad? If you're smart enough, I think you wouldn't.
What are you going to do when you're out ice fishing and the ice starts breaking? Are you doing to hop on your quad and try to get away?
What's that I hear? You want to take your family/friends and show them the outdoors? What do you mean you have no room for them??? That's too bad, because if you had a 6x6 or 8x8 you would have room.
Going hunting? That sounds good. Let's see how much gear you can pack on your quad. What? Only your rifle??
You just shot a 900lb moose in the middle of nowhere? That's quite impressive, but how are you going to get it back to camp with your quad? What do you mean your quad can't pull that weight??
Well, I think we all get the point here. End of story. |
Argo One
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Chris, that is funny, but so true. So many times I hear quad people on here talk about what ever advantages(excuses) they can muster, yet they never think about what they can't do. They seem to forget that speed and suspension does not get a family into the woods, or haul out that trohpy size buck with all the gear. There is a commercial of a Grizzly 660 trying to be the ultimate hunting machine, and it shows it standing by a lake. The sloagan says where you go is up to you. I find this funny, because I don't think that the owner of that Grizzly could take it across the lake, but an Argo or Max...ah, now there is a machine that can take you where you want to go. I honestly think that quad people are dumb, or at least they have their heads so far in the clouds they don't know how to come down. 6x6 people are laid back. While the quad guys are making excuses and BS about what they can do, the 6x6 guys are out there doing it. I wonder if the quad companies know there are better ATVs, or they don't care as long as they sale a million junk bikes. I mean, Honda says they are the best on earth, but don't they know that an Argo can foat and carry twice the number of people and gear, or can protect a person in a roll over? Best on earth...give me a break. |
Argo One
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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It annoys me that people on here complain of the price for a 6x6, and not a quad. Anyone who reads this, go a check out the price for a new 18hp b&s engine. They are nearly $2,000. Now think about the price of a 6x6. $5,000, maybe $6,000. Next time you all go ranting about how high they are, remember that the motors in these things are nearly as expensive as the machines, and before you go putting Max down for low quality, think about the quality of the engines. Max may have some problems to overcome but they are not junk. Anyway, before you rant about the price of the machine, look at the price of the engine, which is the heart of any 6x6. If you tried to build one of these yourself, you would have put enough money into it, to buy two Max ATVs. |
John Schwab (Johnschwab)
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Let me get this straight, Mr Argo One and Argomaster, anyone who isn't riding the kind of ATV that you happen to drive is "dumb". Anyone who rides a quad is riding "junk". And all ATVs that don't float are "useless". I only wish that you had told me that 25 years ago. Here I have been having fun all these years on all different kinds of off-road toys only to find out now that I am dumb and have been riding useless junk.
Try considering a few things: Most of the public ATV riding areas exist only because the quad market opened them and their registration dollars keep them open.
Not all quads rely on speed to get get around. My Honda Foreman 4x4 does a fine job. It has over 1000 hrs on it, and about 7000 miles. If you do the math you will see that not all quad riders "fly" around the woods.
There are a lot of jerks that own quads, simply because there are such a great number of people that own them.Some AATVs are owned by jerks also. There are also a lot of good people that own them. The famous Humphrey AATV is set up and operated by Quad people,myself amongst them. It is a good thing we did not have the same exclusive and adversarial attitude that you have or these type of events would never happen. When I am in my Max and a encounter quads in the woods, the riders are usually curious and interested. Perhaps you should try to direct some of you apparent anger into something useful like using the utilitarian nature of your machine to help your local quad club maintain trails. I am pretty sure you will end up with more trails to ride on. Then while you are out there with them you can show off all you want.
As far as Brandons riding ability, if you are going to ride with him you had better be pretty darn good yourself. The fact that he also owns a quad doesn't exclude him from being a good 6x6 rider. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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ARGO ONE, Argomaster, if ARGOs and Max had much faster machines, would you still bash the quads, and every other type of "fun" vehicle?? Many people own quads on this board, as well as amphibs. If you took the time to read through, you would see that they have many different uses, and the appropriate conditions. Same with amphibs. Their are some times where I wish I had use of a quad for doing certain things. OTher times, I know that the ARGO would be better. |
Argo One
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Listen here Mr. David, and Mr. John. What makes me mad is that you quad guys bash 6x6's for being slow and simple in technology. Your type seems to think that technology is the answer for everything. I have said it before and I will say it again. When I see a quad take 4 or 6 people down the river for a day of fishing, I will call them ATVs. I call them junk bikes becasue, for one thing, they are twice as complex as a 6x6, which means there is more room for something to go wrong, and two, when someting does go wrong, you will not be able to fix it yourslef unless you have been trained to do it. It will be junk until you can afford to take down to the dealership. A 6x6 is simple enough to fix yourslef when something goes wrong. You said you wished I told you that 25 years ago. That is most quad riders problem now, they can't get over the 6x6's of the 70's. Today's AATVs are much better in quality and durability. I feel sorry for you, because where I live, there are no designated trails. We are free to drive where we want to, and don't have to pay a dime for it. It doesn't matter what you have up here, just take off and ride. Hell ride a pair of skates, it doesn't matter. I bash quads becasue they bash 6x6's. They are not even ATVs, more like LTVs(land terrain vehicles). Water is a type of terrain and if you can't conquer it, your not on an ATV. Sure there are a few places a quad can go better, but how many quads can carry 6 people, or be fitted with a seat belt and roll cage to protect you. sure anyone could build some type of safety cage for a quad, but it isn't someting your going to see on the options list. I never said they weren't fun, you did, so you must not have any fun. I was implying that if it can't go over water, it isn't an ATV(all terrain vehicle). Besides that, why does it matter anyway. Quad guys are always going to think they are better, and 6x6's will always know they are better. I'd like to see those dumb quads try and take on a Cushman Trackster. Oh, and I said you were dumb because you seem to always bring up this speed/technology crap. Let me see? High tech quad, one rider only. Low tech 6x6, 4 riders or more. High tech quad, very unsafe. Low tech 6x6, roll cage and seatbelts. Well I gues you lose out. I would hate to have an accident on a 600 lb. machine with no protection. Oh and one more thing. the federal Government has declaired quads unsafe. In a few years, when someone has a new, safe idea for an ATV(or in the quads case, LTV), quads are out the door, just like the 3-wheelers, which were unsafe, and baned for it. Myself I like the fact that I could carry some of my family and friends in an Argo or max. How many can you take on your quad? |
Argo One
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What I was honeslty trying to say was that you shouldn't bash them over their price without looking at the price of the parts that goe into them. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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John,
Please don't accuse me of calling anyone "dumb" because they own quads. That was NOT my comment. I have relatives and some really good and close friends who own quads and who let me ride them. I know for a fact that quads are fun to ride. If you've read some of my other posts, you would know that we used to own a 3-wheeler sports Yamaha a few years back. Would I be calling them dumb??
I have a really good friend who let my ride his 2000 Honda Foreman and I had a blast (love the semi-auto transmission)!
David,
I wasn't intending on "bashing" quads, just stating my case that amphibs are more truly "all-terrain". I didn't imply that they're useless or worthless or not fun to ride. That wasn't my point. I said what the 6x6's can do and what quads can't do and vice-versa (as the case with speed), and I stand by what I said in my previous post.
Overall, I think I've hit some nerves for quad riders/owners and I didn't mean for it to take so much effect on you. I guess it's the way it was written. In either case, my apologies if I seemed to "attack" or offend some people here, but like I said, my post was intended to hightlight the pros of AATVs over quads, not to offend people. Anyone who owns these recreational vehicles is having fun in their own way and I respect that, but I also have points that I believe are correct when it comes to AATVs, as I'm sure people here would agree with.
I'm sure they'd agree with my points because I've seen it posted all over the board, in so many words or less. My apologies for "wording" it wrong and for any offense.
So please don't reply saying that I called you "dumb" or that you ride "junk" as I've NEVER mentioned anything like that in my post. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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Argo One,
Okay, this is where I would have to disagree with you buddy (at least part of your argument). I don't think that just because something is too complex it can he classified as "junk", you know what I mean? What's going to happen when our beloved 6x6 and 8x8's become "vastly superior" to what they are now? I'm not talking to the level of quads, but at least more advanced than they are now. It WILL happen one day singe Argos and Maxs are constantly being improved. Are you going to be calling them junk because you can't fix them yourself?
Indeed, if people thought like that then we wouldn't have AATVs or ATV or cars or the technology we currently have. So you can't really say that "new is bad".
Come on man... I get what you're trying to say (as do most of the other people reading these forums), but your choice of words are misleading people into thinking that you're very arrogant when it comes to quads. This happend to my previous posts and people got quite upset because they've misinterpreted my message.
Have you ever ridden a quad? I think they're a lot of fun to ride, but wouldn't really trust them to get me through the tough terrain an Argo or Max would.
That's what I've posted about before and people got all defensive. That's fine though, they've misunderstood me, I replied about it and LIFE WENT ON. I respected their defence and I hope they respect my point of view on things.
HAHA! LTV's? I like that acronym!
I still agree with you on the point of safety and taking your family/friends with you. That is one extra little "fun" feature of AATVs, showing off in the deep woods and watching everyone's faces light up! |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Woah!! Back up ARGO ONE. I never said I even owned a quad. I have driven them and used them many times in the past but I don't own one. Read my previous post again, and you will see what I said. NOthing ever about me bashing a quad against argo or max. |
Argo One
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Well Chris, I don't want to make people mad, but what I meant by junk was that untill you can fix it, is somewhat junk. I suppose that could go for anything, but I really like the idea of being able to fix something yourself. I mean, at least you don't have lug it down to the dealership and have to pay outragious prices. I have driven a quad, actualy owned it, and all those times someone had that steal rack breaking thier tailbone, I wished I had a 6x6. I am sorry if I offended anyone, but, man, it makes me mad when people go and trash 6x6's, then when someone puts down a quad, eveyone acts like they talked about God. And to David, I guess I took you wrong, so I do owe you an appology. I am man enough to do that, when I am wrong. My head isn't up in the clouds. Still, people shouldn't put down 6x6's just because they are behind in technology. They are that way for a reason. I have owned a quad, so I know what they are like. The post I had written earlier about the engines, was suppose to imply that people should study something before they go a rant and rave about it. I have a catalog here at the house, and the same engine that is in the Argo bigfoot, and the Max II, costs close to $2,000. An Argo might cost about $5,000. $2,000 of that is in the engine. Like I said guys, if you tryed to build one yourself, it would cost you twice what you could pay for a new machine. Hey, lets not fight over this, but If I am wrong, then fine, I will appologize. There is no harm in admitting you are wrong or correcting what yuo said. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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Argo One,
Yeah, it's technically "junk" until you can fix it, but like you've admitted, that can go for anything, including cars, boats, bikes, quads and AATVs. You can call every piece of machinery "junk", but that term is usually reserved for machinery that needs a major over-haul to get it working. That's why people got pissed off when you started calling it junk.
Also, you have to remember that there are quite a few people who enjoy working on their machines (like quads) and are great machinists. My buddy with the 2000 Honda Foreman that I've mentioned earlier has an AMAZING quad, and he's also the chief mechanic at his work. So if need be, he will tear that quad engine apart down to the nuts and bolts and rebuild the entire thing himself within a matter of a few days. Me personally, I don't know too much about engines.
My point here is this... Everything related to my Argo, I love doing because I like my machine. My buddy on the other hand loves his quad and is very skilled with engines, so he too loves working on it too. If you insist on calling quads "junk", remember this... One man's junk is another man's treasure. You might think quads are "junk" because of the maintenance required, but my buddy doesn't think so. My buddy on the other hand might think that AATVs are junk (which he doesn't because he loves their simple mechanics), but YOU don't think AATVs are junk. Get it? It all depends on your preference and how skilled you are with them, that's all.
Also, about prices... Quads are being mass-produced so they're always going to cost cheaper than Argos/Maxs, despite their higher technology. All the profits from quads goes into technology research. In turn, the higher the technology, the more people will buy them. It's all a never-ending circle. There are 25,000 Argos in use world-wide (don't know about Maxs). But there are probably millions of quads worldwide. At $5,000 (average, Canadian dollars) per quad, that's a LOT of money to be put into research. That's why they produce more high technology for a lesser price. |
Argo One
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well I don't agree with you on the quads being cheaper, because a new Honda, probably the rincon, will cost you more than $8,000. That's roughly the same as a Max or an Argo. As I have said before, technology doesn't make the machine any better, at least from a useful standpoint. All those quads are high tech, but not one can challenge an Argo or Max for best all round usefulness. I do agree with you about each person enjoying their machine, but not evrybody is as skilled as your friend is. I know for a fact I could never tear down a quad and fix it, it but I could fix a Max. I can work on simple, chain driven machines like go carts, and dirt bikes. If people would stop going for something just because it promises all the latest bells and whistles, and went after something that was proven, then the 6x6's would sell better. To an extent, technology is good, but sometimes it can turn around and bite you hard. a neighbor of mine, works down at the Honda dealership, and there is a friend of his who obviously couldn't find the nut in a crazy house, because he is always dropping his quad off at my neighbor's house to be fixed. I'm sure if he new what he was looking at, it would be easier. Its down there now to be honest. Anyway, with a Max or Argo, you pretty much know what you are looking at Its not that way with a quad, so finding the problem to fix is is much more difficult, and impossible for some. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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Argo One,
I see your arguments are becoming more refined and I'm starting to really understand your point now. Yes, I agree with you that quads are more difficult to fix for the average person. I probably couldn't fix one myself if something broke. I would find and isolate the problem much more quickly on my Argo.
Another thing is that I would agree on the Argo/Max's usefulness. Overall like my posts have said: land, water, snow, ice, swamps, bogs, marshes, mud, NO PROBLEM! Cargo, safety, passenger capacity, towing ability, accessories, THUMBS UP! It comes down to what we AATVers see that the quad owners don't see in them. Honestly though, it can be said the other way as well. Quad owners see things in their quads that we don't see (which you may never agree with though). But I respect their opinions (even though they don't agree with mine). |
Argo One
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well we do have to respect their opinions, after all, if don't learn to respect each other, ATV's as a whole are doomed. I really do respect quads, but some just don't respect AATVs. Still, I understand what you mean about what quad owners see in their machines. A good smooth ride can really go along way. One thing we should think about, is that not every place is a bog or marsh, so some areas are fine for quads. I use to own one, and I liked it really good, but every time I was on it, I couldn't help but think of the benifites of an Argo. I never really hated quads, even though some of my earlier posts seemd like it. I just wish that everyone could respect each other's machine, even if they don't respect each other. About my old quad, well not so old. It was a 250 Recon, and man, would it climb some steep hills. It suprised everyone who saw it. It took me and my brother through heck and back, and never let up. Only two wheel drive, but it could go places with most 4x4s, and some places they couldn't. I guess I got caught up in this debate, and forgot that at one time, my money(well grandmother's money) went on a quad, and I was proud of it. Now that you have braught this up I can see why a person would take up for their machine against people's crap. Its not that it is a quad or a 6x6, or that it is high tech, or can float. It is the fact it is something they can call their own, something that does what they ask of it, and something they can go and be proud of, jsut because it is their's. Its a sense of ownership and pride in what you have, and the fact that you may not be able to get another one, so you take care of it. I was wrong, and now I honestly do see what they see in their machines. Still, I wish that 6x6s could grow again, and become a large industry, not to out do quads, but to give more varity to the mass market. We both areeg that quads are great, but some varity would still be good. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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ARGO ONE, just out of pure curiosity, how old are you? Strange question I know, but oh well. |
Argo One
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I am 20, why? Too bad I missed the 70s, isn't it. Honestly though, sometimes I wish I could've seen the 70's. I mean, it would be a wild thing to to live during the 6x6 period. that is what I call it. I ahve noticed that in the 60s, 70s, an early 80s, a lot of people experimented with ATVs. Well what I mean to say is that there lots of ATVs out and lots of choices. In the 60s and 70s, there a ton of different syled 6x6s, cushman tracksters, coots, two wheel drive motor cycles(if a I am correct), and mini-jeeps. In the early 80s, there Oddisy(spelled wrong), and many other choices. Now what is there? Nothing on the mass market except quads(dirt bikes don't count much). Like I have said, I like them, but it would be nice to be able to have a choice in what kind of ATV I wanted. Argos and the remaining 6x6s are no where to be found around my area. I think maybe the closest place might be three hours from here. Thats a long way off. The reason for the quads being so expensive, is that there is no other type of ATV on the mass market to challenge it and give hte companies a reason to lower prices, and I hate to say this but they are running a monopoly on the ATV industry. Even though Argo Max and a few others are still here, they are such a small market, they could never sell enough to challenge a quad for dominance on the market. |
Argo One
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I did a little test earlier, and I found out that six wheel drive can be better than four most of the time. I have two radio controled trucks, powered by those rechargible 9.6 volt battery packs. One is 4-wheel drive and the other is 2-wheel drive. First I hooked up my 4x4 to the stool in the kitchen, and it tried to pull the stool but it couldn't find any traction, then I hooked up the 2x4 and it doen nothing but raise the front end. Next thing I done was hooked up the 4x4 in front the of the 2-wheel drive, and using the controlers, I ran both at the same time. That stool was draged all the way across the floor. Now you may ask yourself what radio controled cars has to do with 6x6 ATVs, but six wheels were pulling that stool. The two wheels of the 2x4, and the 4 wheels of the 4x4. They were inline with each other, that is to say, the trucks were in front of each other pulling with string. The 2x4 was tied to the stool with the string wrapping around the front bumper, and the 4x4 was tied up to the 2x4 with the string wrapping around its bumper, and the strings were connected. so what you have is six wheels pulling and suceeding where 4 failed, and where 2 failed. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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Argo One,
Now I see you've caught my point exactly. People love their machines because they are THEIRS and they are proud of their machines and what they can do.
Where exactly do you live anyway that's so far from other people with Argos/Maxes?
Also, nice experiment. So you've tried a 4x2, 4x4 and a 6x6 on the stool eh? How's about I bring over my Conquest sometime and we'll try with 8x8 and see what happens? I'm sure we can fit it into your kitchen. If not, I can knock down a wall or two and we'll tie the stool to it with some string. So are you up for a little further experimentation? We'll video tape the experiment and post it on the net for all to see. HEHE!
PS - I promise to mop the floor when we're done. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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ARGO ONE, this will sound stupid, but by the way you write, I could tell that you weren't more than 25. Don't ask why. |
Markski
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All I can add to that is...HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND ENTIRELY Argo One!?!?! You're joking, right? You see folks, that is the kind of weird things owning an Argo will do to you.. comparison testing RC toys to the real world. I'm going to be shaking my head in amazement for a long time over the above post! What we really need to know is if the RCs had a differential or were a true 4 and 2 wheel drive respectively. And what's your toilet doing in the middle of the kitchen anyway? And now that you've pulled it off of it's mounting flange aren't you afraid of sewer gas leaking into the house?
I'm just kidding Argo One, and I hope you were too! But save it for April 1st next time, ok? Lol |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Didn't he say the stool in the kitchen?? I sure as hell hope you didn't drag a toilet across the kitchen. Hope your insurance covers toilet being ripped out by 6x6. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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This is becoming a circus.
Honestly though, Markski is right Argo One. You can't compare it to the real world because it doesn't work quite like that. That's why I suggested using the Conquest instead of the RC truck. Besides ArgoOne, it kind of common sense that a 4x4 would have more pulling power than a 4x2, right?
Oh man I had a good laugh with the sewer gas bit. HAH... Stomach still hurting from laughing. Well, at least we've managed to turn the topic right around from the offensive contents people felt was being thrown at them into something quite humorous. :-) Good job ArgoOne, Markski. |
Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot)
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This is the funniest thread I seen on 6x6. keep it coming. I can see it now 6x6 and 8x8 bar stool racing. |
David Sanders
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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( Chris ) I agree whole heartedly with your posting about your Max Buffalo truck. I bought a new Max IV 25 hp from the factory in july of 2002.
Right before I bought it,,I thought the closest dealer was around 300 miles or more,so I had to rely heavily upon the postings I read here,the videos I bought from John Schwab and David Berger,
and many long distance phone calls that I made to people on the this 6x6 forum board.
Even though I liked the look of the Argo Bigfoot better than the Max IV I later baught,,,the Max IV,s "TRUE" six wheel drive is what sold me on the Max. After watching five video,s of both the Argo and Max in action together, it became more and more apparent that the Max IV 25 hp was the better mud machine.
With its "true" six wheel drive,,it just goes through the hard muddy sections easier than the Argo Bigfoot. The 26 inch tires and 25 hp motor helps also.
But,,when I finally got my Max IV uncrated,,and began to look it over good,,it was hard to believe that I payed so much,,and got so little for my money in return.
I agree that simple is good, if you are in "no mans land" and, with no one to help you fix things that went wrong,,but, I also agree with you,,that these machines could come out of the "Stone age", and be designed a lot better than they are,,as far as build quality. |
David Sanders
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I was at the local "Books a Million" store today,,where I like to stop by, at least once a month, to check out all the latest four wheeler and Harley magazines.
I picked up a magazine called "All Terrain Vehicle",,and as I was reading it, from front to back,,I found a very good review about an "Argo Bigfoot".
The test rider was very impressed by it,,and, had many positive things to say about it as well. The words that this test rider wrote, stuck in my mind
"After having the Argo ( Big Foot ) at our disposal, we developed a completely different mindset about bush travel. This is gonna sound weird,,but, we could only think of one vehicle which is more capable than an Argo ----> a Float Plane.
Seriously,,the Argo opens up endless possibilities
when you veiw the terrain as wet or dry. You can can cross it no matter what. |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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David,
What are you talking about when you mean "build quality"? My Argo is built beautifully. I love its looks and its strength and durability are exceptional. The quality of the build for Argos I find is excellent.
I've never seen a Max in real life, so I cannot speak for Maxes, but I do know that Argo owners don't complain about the quality of their machines and I've seen some Max owners comment on the Argo's quality.
If it's "technology" you are referring to and not "build quality" then that's a different issue. Many of us enjoy working on simple machines. Other than the engine, I don't know what else can be improved on AATVs. I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't want a suspension on my Argo!
It all comes down to this... If quads were used in the same terrain as Argos/Maxes, then quad owners would spend most of their time fixing their machines instead of riding them. In the rugged terrain, simple and durable are the keys to survival.
Looking at quads, I find them to look "delicate" and wouldn't want to damage it by taking them somewhere they shouldn't be. Everything looks so exposed. Looking at my 8x8 Conquest, I find myself thinking of places to test its limits. HEHE! But you get what I mean? |
Eric Magyor
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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You are missing what you really are getting for your money folks and looking at the surface. Take your machine out to places you wouldn't think of walking through along with your kids or wife. Have the good times the machine WILL give you.. That's what you buy. I can't believe anybody wants to make things harder on themselves by asking a machine to be built more complicated to make it "look" like you get more for your money!!
They work and work well. What's the problem? You know, I've worked on cars for about 22 years now. I've seen them turn into the expensive computerized junk they are today. People keep spending more amd more money on them and the makers make them more and more complicated. Only two sides make out, the makers and the fixers! poor buying suckers!!! ha ha Anyway, don't worry about how fancy it looks inside just worry that it does all that it is suppposed to do. Remember, it's still a free country. If you don't like it, don't buy it and look before you leap! |
David Sanders
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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(Chris )
I guess what I really meant, was this:
for the price I payed for my Max IV, ( I got it for a great price too! ) I was really "expecting" the machine to be built on the level of a 4-wheeler of comparabe price ( honda Rincon ) meaning ----> a "little" higher tech.
I have now learned though,,that the more weight you add to an Amphib,,the easier it is, to get it stuck.
I have also come to the conclusion now,,that a machine that is built simple,so that it is easy to work on and repair,,does make it imferior to another machine of comparable price.
I just wish these amphibs did not cost as much as they do,,for as simple as they are! I now know that low volume of sales equals higher prices,and this is the price of admission to own an amphib. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Okay, every day, this thread gets more and more comfusing and hilarious to read. LEts just say that argo and max are both good machines, have their goods and bads and compared to a quad, they do some more, less and same things.
END OF STORY!! |
Chris M. (Argomaster9000)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Eric,
Agreed! Cars are more complex now than they've ever been, and people are paying more and more and are able to do less and less on them by themselves. My father used to be a mechanic, and except for the occasional thing or two, he can't do anything at home on his car. This was especially true with the Grand Cherokee we used to have. And do you know how much the dealer charges to just "have a look" at the problem? Enough said! I'm getting too mad. Thank goodness he can usually isolate problems just by listening to the engine and get the parts himself. Anyhow, I really like your statement about taking it where you wouldn't normally think of going with anything else. That's were you can't just look at the "surface" etc.
David Sanders,
I get what you're saying. And it's perfectly normal that you'd expect a bit more technology for your buck. After all, quad owners are getting the high-tech for their buck, and their quads are cheaper than our AATVs. But lets not forget why you bought an AATV. It's because you love it and can take it ANYWHERE and also because it's YOUR machine, not someone else's. So don't put yourself down with the high-tech (or lack thereof) remarks. You got yourself the best "true" all-terrain vehicle money can buy, which is more than I can say for your quad buddies (but don't let them know that). HEHE!
Argomag,
Agreed. What does bar stool racing have to do with "AATV Marketing" ?? HAHA! I wouldn't advise anyone new to this board to read this thread, for their own sanity (or anyone else). |
6x6 guy
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Everyone on here seems to think that building cheaper AATVs or updating the technology is the answer to bringing the 6x6 back to its former glory. All I hear is people coming up with ideas about how Argo bulding entry level models and R.I. using new technology will help them sell more and overtake the quads. These are good ideas but think about this. These are tiny little companies, practicly existing out of garages, with barely enough money and resources to build the machines, let alone advertise nationaly and put up dealerships across the country. How is building a different machine going to open them up to more people?
Manufactures of Quads were already large buisnesses from the the start. Honda, Yamaha, Arctic Cat, and many others were building cars and dirt bikes before the 6x6's were even dead yet, so they had money to put the muscle behind their machines. My idea is if a person could find some big time corporaton, such as an automobile manufacture who might be looking to open up to a new market they could sell the idea of the 6x6 ATV to them, then it is possible for the AATV to find its way back into the mainstream. This would mean money to advertise, a large userbase, and modern technology to go into them. Some of you may be thinking this is a crazy idea, but if you haven't noticed as of late, anything goes, especialy when it comes to automobile manufactures. Before you rant on me mentioning car companies, look at what Honda did back in the late 70s and early 80s with the ATV market. I'm sure people laughed at them. |
Bigkodiak
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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6x6 guy
I understand what you are attepmting to say but I disagree with many of your points.
In comparison to RI and Argo with Honda, yes they would appear to be a garage. ODG is hardly a small company.
I can't picture in my head the vision of a Ford, Chevy, OR THAT OTHER GOD AWFUL COMPANY, CHRYSLER, emblem on my Bigfoot. Think about it!
Although I agree the marketing dollars would be there, I think that the overall trade off would be like selling your soul to the Devil.
The days of the 6 wheeler ruling the world is similar to that of the dinosaurs....they once ruled the earth but now only their remains and distant relatives are here.
We as a group are the few, the proud, the WEIRD.
Russ |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Bigkodiak-- Although I strongly disagree with your comment on Chrysler, They are solidly built, can be driven to hell and back adn still have enough to fight the winter.
I agree that these are in fact small companies, but not small enough to be considered (out of a garage) ODG is a massive company not only just making the vehicles (ARGO LINEUP AND CENTAUR) but they also produce a ton of other things for various types of equipment. They make some parts that go into the transmission of various vehicle, cut their own gears, do custom orders, and lots more.
I can't speak for RI as I know just about them as I do a max atv (squat!) but ODG is huge and constantly upgrading designs, and looks. I have never seen a max that looked updated. Other than the engine maybe. |
6x6guy
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I did not mean literly out of garages, just when campared to the quad companies, which existed before the quads were built. ODG is quite large compared to other 6x6 companies, but small potatoes compared to Honda. My idea was not to literly sell the 6x6, but the basic idea of it, since a large corporation would have the financial strength and the techonology, to make the AATV new again. You wouldn't see ford on your Bigfoot, get real. The idea is to let them build thier own unique designs and put thier own touches on it. In this way, the AATV market could be expanded and would grow. I kind of figured you all would start pouring in with disagreements. You'd rather see the 6x6 stay lost in the shadows, than welcome change. If it meant I would be able to take a short ride downtown to buy a 6x6, than be stuck not knowing where in the world to find one, yea, I'd like to see a 6x6 with Ford or Dodge. |
liflod (Liflod)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I would prefer to keep the 6x6 and 8x8 out of the main stream. I'm sure there would be alot more problems caused for the 6x6 rider instead of solved if the 6x6 was produced and sold like a quad. |
6x6guy
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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How do you suppose there would be problems? Anyone wanting a 6x6 would have an easier time getting one, current owners could take pride in knowing their machines are able to go toe to toe with the quads (sales and popularity), and most of you who gripe about the things that should be fixed (suspension, better drivetrain etc.), would finaly get your wish. I think most of you are just afraid of change. You have gotten so stuck on the way things are that you can't picture the way things should be. I don't want to argue, but maybe some things should change. I'm not meaning getting rid of quads, but maybe the AATV market should adapt to the times just a little. It would be better for everyone if they were easier to own and afoard. Personaly, I don't think that the technology in them are that bad. I mean, if it works, why change it, but still, there is a time to change and a time not to. The point of what I was trying say, was to make them easier to affoard and more avalible to the masses. They are pretty hard to find for most people. The only time I've ever seen one in my life was when I as little. It was one in a dealership downtown. I've yet to see on in my area, and this is something that troubles me because I have had a lifetime obsession with them, and hope to buy one someday.
Oh and by the way, do any of you think there will ever be a day when the quads face a simular fate as the 6x6. |
6x6guy
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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How do you suppose there would be problems? Anyone wanting a 6x6 would have an easier time getting one, current owners could take pride in knowing their machines are able to go toe to toe with the quads (sales and popularity), and most of you who gripe about the things that should be fixed (suspension, better drivetrain etc.), would finaly get your wish. I think most of you are just afraid of change. You have gotten so stuck on the way things are that you can't picture the way things should be. I don't want to argue, but maybe some things should change. I'm not meaning getting rid of quads, but maybe the AATV market should adapt to the times just a little. It would be better for everyone if they were easier to own and afoard. Personaly, I don't think that the technology in them are that bad. I mean, if it works, why change it, but still, there is a time to change and a time not to. The point of what I was trying say, was to make them easier to affoard and more avalible to the masses. They are pretty hard to find for most people. The only time I've ever seen one in my life was when I as little. It was one in a dealership downtown. I've yet to see on in my area, and this is something that troubles me because I have had a lifetime obsession with them, and hope to buy one someday.
Oh and by the way, do any of you think there will ever be a day when the quads face a simular fate as the 6x6. |
6x6guy
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I suppose you are right about problems that could be caused, but it would still be nice if they were more widly avaible, which is the one area that could be improved by massproducing them. You say there would be problems 6x6's hitting the mainstream, but there could be benifts also. Hitting the mainstream could possibly mean acceptance, which could get them classified as ATVs (which they are anyway) leagleized for ATV trails. That would be a benefit to all owners of AATVs. If you don't care, liflod, explain to me what some of the problems could be. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Mass production is a big issue i think wiht these companies. Their just isn't the demand for these vehicles. If you mass produce, you have to have a demand and people who will actually buy them. They are unique vehicles that serve a purpose and they were intended on doing what is required. That is do have the ablility to do medium duty work, some fun and be functional at the same time. If you want suspension etc, design your own or buy a different vehicle. You can get a 6x6 truck with a full cab, sleeping quarters, and all the other stuff a tractor trailor comes with. But for this category of work, the ARGO and/or max serves its purpose and as long as the two companies are happy with what they have, than so be it. Their are a lot of things I would like to see cars with and one is a little less technology built into them. The aatvs don't need to be fancy. They need to be functional and serve the users purpose and if they don't meet your needs, go buy something else. END OF STORY! |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Mass production is a big issue i think wiht these companies. Their just isn't the demand for these vehicles. If you mass produce, you have to have a demand and people who will actually buy them. They are unique vehicles that serve a purpose and they were intended on doing what is required. That is do have the ablility to do medium duty work, some fun and be functional at the same time. If you want suspension etc, design your own or buy a different vehicle. You can get a 6x6 truck with a full cab, sleeping quarters, and all the other stuff a tractor trailor comes with. But for this category of work, the ARGO and/or max serves its purpose and as long as the two companies are happy with what they have, than so be it. Their are a lot of things I would like to see cars with and one is a little less technology built into them. The aatvs don't need to be fancy. They need to be functional and serve the users purpose and if they don't meet your needs, go buy something else. END OF STORY! |
liflod (Liflod)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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The 6x6 / 8x8 has always been and always will be a niche market. The funnest thing I have ever driven has been an ATTEX 6x6. The first time I drove mine, I wondered why the hell did I buy this? It was hard to drive the first time out and it took quite a few hours to get used to the machines personality. I used to own and love my Honda ATC. It was a very fun machine but with only 3 wheels it had it own personality. The ATC was a machine that needed a skilled driver to keep it from being dangerous. The 6x6 falls into the same catagory. If you start putting thousands of people into these machines that don't respect or understand their limits and quirks, the 6x6 will get the same bad reputation the ATC did. |
bigkodiak
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Argomag
I agree...more technology generally means more repairs.
Although I would like to see more people get into aatv's, I don't want to see them as the mainstream either...I like being slightly different.
Also I am sorry if I offended you on the Chrysler issue, but a bad experience left a $20,000.00 dollar junk pile sitting in my driveway 12 years ago, and Chrysler refused to take the proper responsibility for the correct method of repair. Just like any machine, you can have good and bad. It all boils down to how well a company stands behind it's product. That goes for 6 wheelers as well.
Russ |
bigkodiak
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Argomag
I agree...more technology generally means more repairs.
Although I would like to see more people get into aatv's, I don't want to see them as the mainstream either...I like being slightly different.
Also I am sorry if I offended you on the Chrysler issue, but a bad experience left a $20,000.00 dollar junk pile sitting in my driveway 12 years ago, and Chrysler refused to take the proper responsibility for the correct method of repair. Just like any machine, you can have good and bad. It all boils down to how well a company stands behind it's product. That goes for 6 wheelers as well.
Russ |
dakota
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I have to agree with David on this one. These machines fit into a nitch market. I also feel that both odg and ri are doing just fine in marketing , because if you fit into the nitch you are already reading the publications that they advertise in . I'm not a hunter but I do read Popular Mechanics . Every month for the past 20 years I see the ad for one brand of machine and sometimes both. I have seen a couple adds in the quads magazines before too. so 6x6's are being marketed. I like the fact that these machines are so simple !!!I hope they satay that way. It is nice to know if there is a problem it can be diagnossed just by a quik glance , unlike any modern car or truck I have worked on. Personaly I feel briggs and the other small engine man. do a better job of engineering ignitions systems and electric then the cars guys do. If you don't belive me just pull out all the ignition compents of your car , then all the compents on you aatv. funny how my briggs fires up and runs smooth with 2 little black boxes , when my car takes many black boxes sensors etc. to run. and they both are emisions leagel engines. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Big kodiak, I was just joking about the chrysler thing. They are not the most (don't know how to put it) all there when it comes to the broad scheme of things. THe van has put up with every curve ball I have thrown at it. For example, at every light, floor it. Run through the hilly countryside at 160 kph, just stupid things that I'll eventually be pulling out the check book for, but hey, I drive the ARGO the same and the thing has held up 100 % 98% of the time (not including when I flipped it but that was partly due to water in the carb and the power surging through the system. )
Simple is better in this case, intricate is great in cars, and the technology that helps us with our driving. I definatly don't want things such as traction control, abs, or any of the tech stuff ever even considered for a 6x6 or 8x8. Leavem the way they are and if they don't meet your needs, quit your bitchin and get something that does. However, just make sure that you all have a bit of hostility towards your make of machine, or others- it keeps the board interesting! |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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i would just as soon NOT see these machines mass produced.simply because i believe when you mass produce anything,you tend to lose the craftsmanship,or the quality if you will.there are alot of companies that have done the quantity not quality route,and it turned into consumer nightmare. just for an example: GERBER knife 25 years ago produced 1 of the finest edged tools.the blade did not bend or break,and would hold an edge for a considerable length of time.buy one now my friends and i can garantee you that everytime you use it you will have to sharpen it.oh yes out of the box it will be sharp,until you use it.on the off chance that ODG or RI woould go into mass production,then they would have to hire somebody to do quality control.to pay that person or persons,they would have to raise the price.to hire more people to build these machines,same thing.then of course there is advertising which we all know ain't cheep either.here comes another price hike.
frankly i think these bad boys are pricey enough with out adding to the cost. if they need to change anything....it the price of replacement parts.i think that is where they got the market.because you can't go to just any parts house and get what you need. |
6x6guy
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I disagree with you. What you said about demand and massproduction is a little off. There would be massive ad campaigns to go along with massproduction. They would give people the idea that they absolutly need one and must have one in order to be a true offroader. I mean, just the abilty to carry more than one person would be a seller. I'm not offended by the comment on chrystler. You also speak of it getting a bad reputation like the ATC, but Quads have this reputaion also. They are known for tearing up delicate land and being dangerious to drive. Many people have gotten killed because thier quads have flipped back on them and crushed them to death. Actualy this has gotten so widespread that the federal government has delared them unsafe. Why do you get this idea that the AATVs would be built like the cars, because they wouldn't. A differnt techonlogy would be used. You speak of them being harder to fix, but using things like shaft drive, and better brakes, would mean they wouldn't break down as often. I do have one more thing to say. Just becasue you don't want to see 6x6s become popular and flourish, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. ther are a lot of people who would agree with me. For every bad thing you speak of, ther is a benifit, so I am sticking to my ideas, and let you you minds keep gettting narrower. |
Joesph_sanders
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Liflod, how was your attex hard to drive? Can you explian to me what it was like? |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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The way I see it is that if the company isn't making enough money due to lack of interest, than they either have do drop their prices by a lot, or drop them and start the advertising. The prices have not really jumped up like we all think. They have to go up a bit with each new model vehicle, but if it gets too high, the price will have to drop to get more people buying or guess who goes bankrupt. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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The way I see it is that if the company isn't making enough money due to lack of interest, than they either have do drop their prices by a lot, or drop them and start the advertising. The prices have not really jumped up like we all think. They have to go up a bit with each new model vehicle, but if it gets too high, the price will have to drop to get more people buying or guess who goes bankrupt. |
Brandon_atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well, ODG and R.I. are making plenty of money, and the interest is way up. I don't think they are that expensive, except for the 8x8. It is quite a bit. ODG donated $50,000 for the 911 attack, so that must mean they are doing pretty good, and they obviously have a heart to do so. I don't see Honda doing that. I hope they never go out of business. |
Harry Dusseau (Dirtyharry)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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The fact that both ODG and Recreatives have weathered some hellacious economical and political storms in the world (well... North America), and are STILL doing business some 30 years later speaks volumes about them. They push marketing like they push R&D - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Can you really blame them? Hell, they're still here, long after their once-plentiful competition had bitten the dust. Why would they want to rock the boat and risk joining their water-logged bretheren??? Risk is for Mega-Rich. Let the Big-Money Boys stick their dingers out in the breeze. They can afford to get 'em whacked.
Let's face it, whether we 6x6 fanatics like it or not, neither R.I. or ODG really seem to feel the need to mess with success - at least success as these two measure it.
My $.02
-Harry |
Brandon_ATV
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I agree, with you 100%. Why mess with something that is fine the way it is? Still, somtimes I wonder what it would be like if the whole 6x6 industry became plentiful again, but only with better machines than what was around in the past? Harry, you know as well as I, that 6x6 ATVs are in many ways, the best ATVs on the market. But like you said, they are good the way they are, and if ODG and R.I. are happy they are, then the rest of us should be too. |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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coming back to the flock, oh prodigal 6x6 son? eh eh eh ehhhhh. |
max4me
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Hopefull the Hoot will make them take notice. It looks good, is modestly priced, looks much more comfortable and will likely be something a quad owner may be interested in.
Innovation and newer technology. Look out RI and ODG the Hoot could get my interest real quick. |
Brandon_atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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In the memory lane section, there is an old article that says the future of the ATV may rest in the hands of the three-wheeler. The sad part is, they were right. |
Brandon_atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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In the memory lane section, there is an old article that says the future of the ATV may rest in the hands of the three-wheeler. The sad part is, they were right. |
Brandon_atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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The Hoot does look nice and I hope the company does well, but it lacks the multiple seating capacity and cargo carring abilty of the Argo and Max, which may turn off some potential buyers. Still, it is a super fine machine that seems to have bridged the gap between six and four wheeled ATVs, which is someting that has been needed for a long time. It would be nice to see other companies follow this, and bring about a six wheeled revolution. It sure would be nice to see six wheeled ATVs roaming the mountain sides, but not just Argo type machines, I mean all different kinds. |
Mike
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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My two cents:
I like the small business concept of RI. It is great to have someone answer the phone in the office when the parts guy is at lunch and still have someone take your parts order. Small company maybe, but big at helping out the little guy. Try to get that from a big company. Oh I know what some of you will say, the big companies have dealers all over and when it is lunch time, they make sure someone is covering the phone in the parts dept. yada, yada. |
Brandon_atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I just recieved my new Argo brochers today and I couldn't help but smile. It is nice to see that they've updated, because now they've included the 6x6 conquest in thier lineup. I also recieved an updated video, and I must say they are some pretty heavy duty machines. I'd say you wouldn't find many hills an Argo couldn't climb. I even got some fliers from the nearest dealership, in which one sates that the Argo Vangaurd is a state of the art ATV. I think the 6x6 industry is doing great, and I would advise anyone who wants a great ATV to buy an Argo, or realy any other current AATV out right now. Every time I see an ad for an Argo, I can't help but feel good. maybe I am too passionate, but life is too short to be arguing and fighting with each other about building this better or selling that idea just to make more money. Life is great. |
Branson_atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I did forget to mention that ODG has a new deal on the Vangaurd. Now for a limited time, it is only $5,995. Actualy they have lowered the prices on all thier models. Now all those quad jerks who say you 6x6 owners paid too much are tasting thier foot in thier mouths. There was a question I wanted to ask all of you who were living in the 70s. What was the ATV world like back in the ealier to mid 70s? I mean, I'm sure it was a completly different world than it is today. If any of you could just give me an idea, I would apreaciate it greatly. |
newmax
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I bought a 4 wheeler for my kids about 4 weeks ago. I bought 4 brand new very aggressive tires for it. It has 4 wheel independant suspension, 3 range transmission high, low and super low. It has 2 wheel drive 4 wheel drive and diff lock that locks all 4 wheels together. I have done some real good head to head comparisons. I will give the honest truth. the 4 wheeler is obviously faster and more comfortable. but I have a suspension seat in my max 1v and I can easily stay with the 4 wheeler on trails in the woods. I had a pulling contest with the 4 wheeler in super low and diff lock. I was almost idling no problem for the max. We hit the really deep mud and again the max is a far better mudder if it is driven right. I have had to pull the 4 wheeler out 5 times now, and drove right through the same spot. I took the 4 wheeler out today and took it on one of the trails by my house. the trails are flooded out so I had to go around most of them. I was going through on part that I thought wasn't very deep and I had the 4 wheeler under water. It was over the fenders. It finally stalled and I had to walk back to my house to get the max. The 4 wheeler was under water and in gear. I hooked up the max and puled it right out. It did start after a little while and I got it home, it is fine. I also changed the oil on the 4 wheeler today and that was much harder than with the max. The 4 wheeler is allot of fun but overall the max is so much better. Later I took the max and spent a couple of hours on the river behind my house just catching the sun. |
Brandon-atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well either way, you have two great off-road machines to choose from. You said you had a pulling contest, but which one won? You also said the four-wheeler had a diff. lock on it, but doesn't the max have non differntial, full time six-wheel drive? You've got hte best of both worlds my man. |
newmax
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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The max pulled the 4 wheeler without a tire slipping, I barely had to give it any throttle. |
Brandon_atv
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Just one more question. What kind of 4-wheeler was it? Honda, Yamaha, what? |
Joe_Baker
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Somtimes I like to think these things went out with a bang, ya know, one last shot at glory before going out, but I know it was not this way. In truth I know they suffocated a slow death and nobody even cared. Its sad and yet strange how these things were brought into the world to be so well loved, only to become buried in the shadow of time like a little child lost in the woods.
Knowing today, what couldn't have been seen then, one can't help but be sadend when going through the old archives and reading of an industry's hope and dreams that would be cut short, and the hope of a future that would never be. One can't help feel the loneliness when reading of the many plans and predictions that the world would never see, or the many proud familys who couldn't wait to get home from school or who counted the clock so they could go out with each other in thier new Attex or Scrambler, and never know the fate that would befall the one thing that braught them closer. I know this sounds crazy, but it goes deeper than any machine. Its about what should should've been and what was to come. I hope you may get the meaning of what I am trying to say. It it is confsing, just let me know and I will clarify, ok? |
Joe_Baker
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Some of you may think what I have just written is stupid and doesn't make any sense, but think about this. How would many of you Quad owners, who not only love and cherish your machines, but are proud of the industry feel if you had just read through the new issue some Quad magazine today, about all the great things to come and all the predictions and hopes of the manufactures, only to find out the next day, the whole industy was dead, and Honda, Yamaha, Arctic Cat and the others had closed thier doors forever. How would you feel if it all came to an end the nexy day? You would then know how many felt when the 6x6 industry fell. It practicly went out overnight. |
Mudbug -- David Sanders
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I,m guessing a Suzuki "King Quad" |
newmax
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Your right it is a suzuki king quad with new gator tires. My son went out again last night, and about an hour later he came walking home. He was about a mile away and was stuck. We got in the max and went to get him. I pulled him out the drove right through the same spot. He went to turn around and got really stuck. It was soupy mud and he was burried. It took us and hour to get him out. I did have one problem that I keep running into, my belt slips and it's a brand new belt. I dont know why. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Go for the belt dressing mike, new belts with stong pulls often get a little glazed before they get a chance to seat. |
ruffles
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I bet even an old 70s era 6x6 could just about show up a new quad. I would like to see if one could. |
argo high
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Way up on this board, someone talks about the old 6x6s and reverse enginerring. Can someone explain to me what this is, I am a little confused? |
Attex Bob
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Reverse engineering is when someone or a company takes an existing complex product (usually a good one) apart to see how it works. Sometime they will improve on that product after they see how it works. |
max4me
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I was a circuit design engineer at Qualcomm. I designed micro chips for cell phones. In this field reverse engineering is commonly done. We never did it as far as I know since we were cutting edge leaders and everyone wanted to know what we had but I heard of others trying to reverse engineer what we had done.
If they tried to do this to my designs they would find that there was no need for improvement :-) Just kidding.
Anyway, Attex Bob is correct for a quick simple explanation. |
Argo High
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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So basicly what they did was niether improve or make the technology in 6x6s worse, they just copied the technology in other 6x6s and only changed the look of the body, so what you have is the same 6x6 with a slightly new look and a different name? Am I right or wrong? |
Attex Bob
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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That would depend on how technical you want to get. Did they improve on the main parts? I would have to say no. The Max, my Attex and others are still using the same T-20 that they had along time ago. They are still using chain drive (most) same plastic bodies ect....ect. But they have improved the chain drive, going from #40 to #50, using duel row #50 ect. The bearings and seals have gotten WAY better. The engines have gotten WAY better, with new ign. systems and now even fuel inj. Argo went with juice brakes even.
And now my 2 cents worth. Do I think they need changes? No. I am very happy with my Attex. I love the T-20, I love the 45 mph top end and I love the fact that I have about 45hp at my finger tips.
And now a comment that will piss some people off. If I was a millionaire and wanted a 6X6, what would I buy? Money no object. I would call Richard and have him build me a "like brand new" Attex super chief. No, I don't want a new Max, or a new Argo. I would buy a 20 year old design!!!! That 20 year old design will kick the crap out of any new 6X on the market. The only area that I will loose will be noise and gas mileage. I don't get why more people with money just don't give him a call and order a 6X6 from him? Depending on the machine, I think "some" people would be better off with a recon machine from him.
Alot of people want "new" this and new that. New is fine, I guess I just like old "better" best. |
just-say-argo
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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You have my attention. Who is this Richard and what is this you are saying about building 6x6? What all does he do, and how much does he charge? One more quesion. Does he only build Attex or can build any old model? |
oldnatva
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Attexbob:
I thought I was the only one. From what's posted on this board, you would think 2 strokes were phased out because they didn't do the job.
I've driven newer models of Max and Argo and would like to give them the credit they deserve; they'er quiet and smooth. Even though the newer engines are easier on gas and don't require the tweeking that the JLOs, xenoahs, and CCWs did, they lack the one thing most of us ride for- FUN. New four-strokes are great, and I'm not trying to slam them, but they were designed for garden equipment, and that's what they are best suited for.
It irks me to hear some people on this forum and others put down the old engines- I don't remember who it was or even if it was this board, but someone called the them "overheating metal boxes" or something like that. I would be willing to bet this guy's never been airborne in a Superchief.
I guess we'll just have to keep putting our antiques back together until there are no more parts left.
Don |
Attex Bob
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Richard is the owner of this site. Click on home page and then read about his business. His business is reconditioning most AATV's. I've only dealt with him once, but he is very knowledgeable and very nice to deal with. This is a big site, take some time and nose around, look at his used machines. I'm sure you will like. |
six-wheeler
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Hey oldnatva, now that you bring it up, I actualy thought that was one of the reasons why the old 6-wheelers were killed off. I read somewhere that they used snowmobile engines, and weren't relible for 0ff-road use. If its no trouble, could you tell me what the old 6x6s were like, I mean hill climbing and stuff? There is another thing I am curious about. what was it like back in the 70s for the atv world? |
MaxRules (Brandon_price)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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The 6x6s died because they used to be the most unreliable machine on the planet. They always broke no matter how many times you fix them. Sheared axle pins, chains falling off or breaking, and a 2-stroke that wouldn't run worth crap is basically what you got with a 6x6. Max, Argo, Attex, and Hustler made decent machines that might last a few rides.
Today you can buy a Max or Argo that you can't tear up if you try. They are about equal to quads when it comes to reliability, although require a bit more maintenance. |
Attex Bob
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Oldnatva: I totally agree with you. I keep on hearing the the 2 strokes were unreliable. Over and over and over.
People need to consider this. Yes, these things had snowmobile engines in them. I have never heard of too many snowmobiles being towed in from the woods. Out boards and jets ski's were also 2 strokes up to a few years ago. MX bikes were also 2 strokes. How many times did you see a bike quit in the middle of a race? I've put many miles on dirt bikes years ago. They never left me in the woods. All my buddies rode 2 strokes. I never towed one in.
Consider this. A four stroke has all the parts of a two stroke, and about 20 percent more. I don't have to worry about valve springs, sticking valves, bad guides, ect, ect. The more parts you have, the more of a chance you have of one of them failing.
This does not mean that I don't like four strokes. They are quiet, smooth, and have tons of bottem end power.
I totally agree with you oldnatva. I have an Attex super chief and an Argo 8X8. When I start the Argo that means "work". When I start the Attex that means "fun". Which do you think I like to ride more???? He he he he he |
six-wheeler
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well why didn't they just improve them while the 6x6 was still alive? I mean you think the companies would do this to ensure thier survival, but it seems like they didn't care? When it came to off-road ability, how good were they? |
six-wheeler
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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What about all these other 6x6s that are out, like the Triton Predator and the power trac 6000? How good are these machines? |
oldnatva
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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A lot of the 6x6 machines built in the late 60s and early 70s were junk, and gave the whole industry a bad name. I might add a couple more to
Brandon's list of decent machines, but not many.
Air quality restrictions killed the two-strokes, not any problems with performance. Yes, they require more tuning and maintenance, but if they are that unreliable, why are they used almost exlusively in ultra-light aircraft? (Power-to-weight ratio may have a little to do with it, too)
As far as climbing hills, they don't have the low end grunt the fours do, but you can do fine keeping rpms up.
Imagine a few thousand people coming to see a couple hundred machines, both three and six-wheeled, in some 16 or so classes race in two day events. The Fischer race team from Ashtabula, Ohio came in early with equipment to build the track. Engine, equipment and vehicle manufacturers had displays set up to show off new products. Almost always, unscheduled drag races happened in the wee hours of Sunday morning just for bragging rights. That's a little bit of what it was like ATVing in the 70s. |
Attex Bob
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Six-Wheeler: I have no experience or info on the predator so I will keep my thoughts to myself.
The power trac 6000 is a different subject. A book was wrote on how bad these things were back in 2000 on this site. Just click on key word, then do a "author" search for "Dave Blackburn" with a time unlimited search. This guy got burned to a crisp by this company. Lots of claims, but nothing to back it up with. The two biggest problems were weight (they kinda sank a lot!!) and the hydro drive system wasen't worth a damn. Maybe they came out with a new machine called E.M.???????? He he he he he |
six-wheeler
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Even though people put the old 6x6s down, it seems like it must have been a wild time to live in. It must've been a completly different world than in today's quad dominated market, where an ATV is sold on hype and fales claims of ability, rather than what it can actualy do. Don't get me wrong, quads are awsome machines, but everytime you see a comercial, they are making over-bloated calims about how big and bad they are and how they can do this and that. Take hunting for instance. I don't care what those quad companies claim, there is no way they can even compare to an Argo 8x8 for best hunting vehicle. I mean, think about it. Can those quads carry a few hunting buddies and gear? Can they float in swamp? Can they even protect the driver with a roll cage and seat belt? If you see the comercial for the Grizzly 660, you will know what I mean. It could never beat an 8x8 for duck hunting. You get that Grizzly out in some bottomless swamp and its a gonner. Of course Im' sure that back in the day, 6x6s made thier own claims of greatness, and thats probably what stung them the most in the end. If you go and read a lot of thier old brochures and some of those articles, you would think those things were built by God. I even belived they were great machines, until you all made me see the light. Can I ask you something? Do you think the Quads will ever see the same fate as the 6x6s? |
six-wheeler
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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You know how the 3-wheelers snuck up on the 6x6s and eventualy over took them? I think that utility atvs like the kawasaki mule and polaris ranger will eventualy out do the quads. Right now they are considered slow farm machines, but all it will take is for someone to make them sportier and a bit faster, and with the abilty they have now, they will doninate. Of course this is what I think. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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six-wheeler
I don't think that quads will ever really see the end (for at least 20 years or so). They serve a sector of people who require them for what they are built for. For having a vehicle that goes fast, but can take the challenges that may be required of it such as mud, (shallow mud and water) go over logs, brush, and rocks. For us and the 6x6, 8x8 world, we use them for what they are designed for. We use them for going through swamps (although I have never really thought of them being great in swampy conditions as I find that my magnum gets hung up very easily when their is grassy or weedy areas and water. Especially where mud and water are mixed in together. I find that the tires don't give enough momentum to propel the vehicle through mucky water. The slightest bit of muck that the tires hit results in me having to winch the vehicle out, or spend a ton of time rocking the vehicle back and forth, side to side trying to break free)we use them for hunting, ( the ability to carry passengers, cargo, and the prize winning animal in the back or on trailor, the skid steer ability allowing the vehicle to manover much better than a quad would, and for the ability to do work with the machine, but also having fun. THe quads can do the work, but not as much as they are limited to what they carry, and what they go through. The people buying quads are the ones that use them for work, but want more speed and thrill. The quads serve this group adequately and the ARGO, Max etc serves its users well. the fact is, that given the opportunity and ability, one could get the vehicle to perform the way it is claimed to perform. THe ARGO and max as well. given the chance, and time, we will master all terrain. That is one reason why I think my argo gets stuck in swampy areas more than it should. I just don't quite know how to drive it properly under those conditions. |
six-wheeler
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Well if something new could possible come along, then maybe we could see the quads take on some competition. I mean an entrily new idea, that hasn't been done before. Something that offers equal speed and supperior cappabilities, but is not a quad. What do you think? |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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expierience is the best teacher.when i bought my bigfoot i didn't know "beans" about this machine.i have since learned,( through this website,and actual driving)just what the capabilities of these 6's or 8's can and can't do.
the manual for the ARGO says that "some things are impossible,even with an ARGO". but then their moto is "explore the possibilities" and i have.i wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.as far as i'm concerned these are the greatest things since sliced bread.compared to most of you,i'm still an F.N.G.but i don't let that stop me.i have done more with this machine than i have with anything i have owned.and if you think the quads reign supreme, i will have to say.....NOT A CHANCE. they have their place,and we have ours.and since our place is bigger,with fewer.....i guess that makes us BETTER. |
merk_derk
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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What all have you done with your bigfoot? How far have you pushed it to its limits, and what did you dot o push it? |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
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merk, probably not as much as brandon.and it is only limited by ones own imagination,and the depth of their wallet. i can tell you for sure they are not made to fly,and i have the sore knees to prove it.and it's really not the flight,as much as it is the landing.for now i just use it for,hunting,fishing and trail riding.
when you get older,and you discover that you don't heal like you used to,it tends to make you think twice about doing some things.( depending on how many beers you had).trust me,rollovers DO hurt.
i don't think i have reached the bigfoots limits,in some areas.and in others i have exceeded them.and when i did...it usually wasn't pretty.like i said before "experience"is a good teacher. |
Bobby Joe
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a 4-wheeler, let alone a 6x6. I wish someone could come up with a less expensive alternative to 6x6 and 4x4s. LIke maybe hop-up some go-cart for off-roading and sell them for 600 bucks or build something more affordible, but with good off-road cappibility. Quads and 6x6s are just way too much. |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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well bobby joe, many of the folks here have rebuilt old used 6x6 vehicles from the erly days of off roading,
many still do!
some because the love the old iron and some too save a buck,
they still make good intro machines for thoughs on a buget like mine, heh heh heh
sometimes you can find them sinking into the dirt behind someones house and all they cost is free!
"get the darn thing out of here i don't want too see it any more"
you drag them home and formulate your plan based on your buget,
some go threw all the parts and spend over $1000.00
some only the verry nesesary items, and they get too ride 1 hour and fix it again for 3 hours-
ride once more for an hour and then fix it again, but it is worth it for them,
keep looking for something and you will find one, ahh then another and another and soon you will have your entire yard full of tired old machines, like mine, heh heh |
dakota
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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there is always looking into getting a used machine, Or good old monthly payments.Just remeber the difference between men and boys is the price of thier toys |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Dave Berger
Just how many old machines, and new ones do you have in your fleet right now? What does the wife (if any) say about it? |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
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the old woman thinks she owns the place but she's just a friend who helps with cashflow,cheep rent)
she dose have axess to my gun's though!
and i here don't bring any more of them things home all the time, heh heh
i can only justify keepin 3 running at 1 time, theres not enoph mony to restore any more fome my bone yard, heh heh
but i have (1) 440cc 1986 max II ,
(1)1971 440cc attex, and
(1)1971 400cc terrajet (400-e modle)
in running shape,
they need little maintenence of coarse but i can drive em,
the boneyard contains 1 more terrajet same modle,
2 older modle attex i have all the parts for, and an amphicat i hope i live long enoph to restore,
also 2 attex bodies older style that are not compleat, (they fallowed me home honest!)
and theres a rumer that at the bottem of the pile is what might be a giger body and some trany parts
ooh and an old max II body made from abs also found out where i lived and came to stay!
did i forget anny????????????? |
Wayne
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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I was wondering if any of you could give some advice on maybe building up a 6x6. Perhaps building one from scratch. Of course it couldn't be built like an Argo, but sturdy enough to take in the mountains. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Dave, I only wish I could find one of those oldies is semi-okay condition. I would love to find one, and then get help just fixing it up a bit and takin it for a drive. I would love to find an attex but one of the ones that goes insanely fast for a 6x6. |
Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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David, my friend Brian on this board has an Attex Superchief 500 that he will be selling. It needs some fixing but it's all there and ready to go faster than you want to. Email him at jmorff@midamerica.net .
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David Keeso (Argomag)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Thanks Brandon. One problem. I live in Ontario Canada, don't have a trailer that will even hold an hour on the highway, and our van is just about to croak (piece of crap dodge caravan- its only a 99 too. 131325 km on the clock so far!)
I would like to find one somewhere at the cottage which is where I do my argoing. The argo stays up there, and so would the other addition if I ever find one. Thanks anyway though! |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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them oldies can be made to go realy fast but it makes sence that the insanly fast ones should have the best maintenance, a total restoration is advised before tryin to ride at 40 - 50 mph
brake a chain at speeds over 40 mph and you can kiss your ass goodby,
it has bin my observation that it will happen on the worst side, the one with a 100 foot drop or maybe the one with the bigest trees,
i sell alot of A.B.S. repair kits too people who have FOUND TREES! |
roadwolf
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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bobby joe, a good ride costs plenty! true. yes, i know life is cruel.
but the world can't just come up and give ya sumptin cheap, free and easy!!!
6x6's are indeed hard to aquire, maintain, repair and afford. 600 bucks you say? this is the 21st century. in the age of instant drive throughs, drive by's,& what ever else,you are gonna have to pay your dues for this facilty. |
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