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Ben Lane
New member
Username: Bigben_8
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 08:59 pm: | 
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Hi everyone. I am considering the purchase of an AATV. I have been reading through the threads and see quite alot of talk about the only two machines that still seem to be in production. That being the Argo and the Max. I was in what I believe to be an Argo when I was just a kid and got to drive it. It was a real blast. The only downside that I remember was that steering it was kinda harsh. I dont know if I can afford a brand new machine and will probably consider a recently newer machine. I will say I am leaning toward the Argo based solely on the looks. And it will need to be big enough for the family to fit in so room for 6. Does anyone have experience with both brands to compare ride, driveability, maintenance, handling etc. Thanks for your expected responses. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 416
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 09:23 pm: |
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I am a Max dealer and have owned both Argo and Max machines. Don't get caught up in the look of the machine. Be concerned with how you are going to use the machine and why. For easy steering and the ability to seat six people you should consider an Argo Avenger or maybe a hydrotraxx or triton, the last two are harder to find and more expensive. Maybe a used Avenger would meet your needs. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 193
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 10:06 pm: |
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Hi Ben, I think there is only one good choice if you have to seat six people. The Argo 8x8 handles that load very well. The Avenger can't be beat for ease of handling six people but even used Avengers are still priced quite high. The Conquest is a very solid reliable 8x8 but it won't be able to conquer difficult terrain as well as the Avenger. If you can pony up the extra dollars, the Avenger is worth every penny.
I could probably talk forever on the differences between Max and Argo but I'll try to keep this short and unbiased. Both brands of newer vehicles are very easy and smooth to steer. Argo's handle bar steering (all Avengers, 2005+ all other Argos) is much more confortable and easier to drive than any two stick vehicle. The ride comfort of any 8x8 can't be beat. Max's maintenance on newer vehicles is kept to a minimum with their o-ring chains, but they still must be adjusted manually. Argo uses standard non oring chain but their axles are sealed up so much better that it prevents unnessasary wear from water entering the bearings. Argos have a auto chain adjusting system on most chains, so the only two you have to adjust are the short ones coming off the trains. Again, since they stay so clean and dry, this adjustment is rarely needed. I have seen lots of new and lots of old of each brand, and it is very obvious which brand gives you more bang for your big bucks. I'm playing for both teams so I've said to much already! |
Larry Noworyta
New member
Username: Larry
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-1999
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 08:44 am: |
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Just a quick info note, the Science channel has a program called "How its made". On their most recent episode number 26, they had a visit to the OTG plant and had a short clip (about ten minutes) on how the Argo 8 wheel AATV was assembled. It was quite impressive, the machine is a quality product, and this coming from a 1999 MaxII owner!
To find out time listings in your area, go to
http://science.discovery. When the screen comes up, look for the site search box and type in "Amphibious vehicles". Go to the TV listings tab and you should be able to find the next time it will be aired. |
Larry Noworyta
New member
Username: Larry
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-1999
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 08:55 am: |
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Sorry, the coffee hasn't quite kicked in and its still early in the morning, but in the last post I just sent, you have to put a .com after the web site,
http://science.discovery.com |
STEVE Y.
Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 08:58 am: |
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You can also see the AVENGER on an AMERICAN CHOPPER episode BILL MURRAY BIKE 2. |
Ben Lane
New member
Username: Bigben_8
Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 10:16 am: |
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Thanks for the replys.
Jerry, I cant help but get caught up in the looks. If I'm gonna drive it I want to think it looks cool and I look cool in it. lol. As for how I would use it well, lets just say that If i want to go somewhere, I plan on getting there one way or another. They all come with winches right? I just want to have fun and get outdoors and explore. Is one brand really better than the other? I will check out the Avenger. Thanks again. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 220
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 12:49 pm: |
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Ben, You have hit on the difference in vehicles. One looks cool and you need a winch (and hip boots - check with Steve Young for special ARGO boots) to get where you want to go (especially true if carrying a full load). The other looks OK (some like the looks better); goes most anywhere and the only reason for the winch is if you want to "look cool".
If you want to seat six adults, your only choices are Argo, Hydro Trax or Triton. Please check the specs of the machine in particular that you decide on as most only carry about 1000 pounds (less in the water) regardless of how big the cargo area is. Please keep in mind that these are low PSI on the ground vehicles (some much lower than others) that get where they do because of flotation (or a winch). The more the vehicle weighs and the bigger the load, the less athletic the machine because they all use basically the same tires. The wider the tire the better unless it makes some models much harder to turn (then they will use a narrower tire). |
momobigfoot
New member
Username: Momobigfoot
Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 04:20 pm: |
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Ben, They all go threw wild stuff. I'ts the driver and not as much machine. I rode lots of places for years and I've seen all stuck or strugle threw something. I've herd Fred rides around the area he lives. He most likely has no idea the wild places and stuff most of us put these things threw. |
Josh
Junior Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 04:49 pm: |
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I've only had my Argo stuck when I broke a front axle, and had the rear tire on the same side pop off the rim so I was 3WD on the left side, and 1WD on the right going through mud. I did however still manage to pull my friend on his dead 4 wheeler more than 1/4 mile through some rough terrain. My front axle broke after being on the machine since 1974, so I can't complain when a 32 year old axle broke. |
STEVE Y.
Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 07:04 pm: |
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BEN-if you do haul a heavy load rest assured all ARGO's have high & low gear so your belt doesen't go up in smoke starting and stopping like the old design borg/warner transmission from the late sixties till...? |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 223
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 07:34 pm: |
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Steve Y., You are starting to tell stories again. unless you mean the winch on an Argo gets all the work while the drive belt gets a free ride!
That old late 60's design Borg Warner tranny is still "state of the art" compared to any other skid steer tranny in production today (even against the hydraulics). A two speed could be used with the T-20, but why? It has full torque a 1MPH just as at full speed. If belts get eaten up by a T-20, something is out of align or it has been degraded from oil and gas. Normal life for a T-20 drive belt is at least 225 hours; about 1/3rd more if one will use belt dressing on a regular basis.
All CVT tranny drive belts are exposed to the same wear factors regardless of type of tranny. Now, if you are going to rev it up in neutral and then engage the drive system, all bets are off on the whole drive system on any machine. |
Josh
Junior Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 08:44 pm: |
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Fred, you crack me up on how hard you push Max products. I guess if my income depended some on it, I'd be pushing whichever product I was selling too. Everyone knows that both Argo and Max are great machines! If they weren't neither would be in buisness anymore like the masses of AATV makers from the 70s. |
Ben Lane
New member
Username: Bigben_8
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 10:01 pm: |
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Hey guys....I hope I havent stirred things up here. I was just looking for some advice not a schoolyard fight. LOL.
Fred - Are you exagerating or is it really true? Is the $569 winch package just for looks on the Max. I see one on your machine. Or is that just a shadow? Is the rollbar more Max bling or do they actually roll over? Scary.
Anyway I was just making a funny about looking cool. Sorry it bothered you so much Fred. Each to his own eh?
Josh, you make a good point. Does Fred really need that shameless plug or did I see a rule about self promotion when I joined? Do we really need to know that he's Montana's Max Dealer?
I'm sure he is a treasure of information and a great asset to the discusion board for the Max lovers.
Steve Y - nice waders. Are they new or do they not get used often? I understand you have an Avenger. How do you like it? Any problems?
Thanks again guys.} |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 418
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 10:42 pm: |
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I'm going to make a few comments and as with all comments on this board my comments reflect my opinion.
Fred says what he believes is the truth. He doesn't make a living selling Maxs. He believes they are a superior machine. The man is from Montana and needs a machine that is simple and reliable and if a problem develops it can be fixed in the field and with parts from an automotive store or farm store.
Fred is not promoting his business or trying to sell a machine on the board. He does state his opinion and corrects misinformation.
A roll bar is a good piece of safety equipment. Yes a Max can roll over. A winch is nice especially if using a plow.
The old Borg Warner design transmission has been used in a lot of machines and has stood the test of time. It doesn't need a high or low by virtue of its design. The Argo transmission needs a high low by design. It has also stood the test of time.
A few guys that have a wealth of experience and information have quit this board because of the constant insults. I miss these contributors. |
Ben Lane
New member
Username: Bigben_8
Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:58 pm: |
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Jerry - Well said.
I was checking out the Max web page. Is there an amphibious trailer available for them? Would it be safe to carry passengers in it? What do you do with the windshield on a Max 4 when you dont want it? Doesnt look like you can fold it down. I dont mind the look of the Max II but the IV reminds me of the old flat front tractor trailers, if you're going to hit something man I dont want to be in that, you know what I mean? |
Josh
Junior Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:26 am: |
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I did leave because of the junk from others, but I decided to rejoin as some people have some good info here. I didn't state that he made a living selling AATVs. Some of his income does depend on it though. You can't honestly tell me that you would be a dealer and dedicate your time, expenses and energy for free. If I sold Skipper AATVs I'd be trying to endorse them too. Even though dealers have valuable information, if they don't sell both machines they will likely be biased regardless. It would be nice to see some input from ordinary people that have these machines and don't deal them. |
Mike Maroni
Intermediate Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 92
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:49 am: |
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Ben,
First off welcome to the board. As you can see there are many people on the board that enjoy both machines and will give honest advice about either of them (even when they're dealers of other machines).
You wanted some advice on buying a machine here is what I can recommend:
Make sure you test drive what your interested in. Any good dealer should be able to show you how the machine works in a real world scenario.
Identify what's important to you. You already said you need to fit 6 people. That limits you to pretty much the 8 x 8. Do you want tracks? If so you need to buy a machine outfitted for tracks. this includes higher HP engine, bearing extensions etc..
If your looking at used machines buyer beware. ANY machine even a few years old can be a mess if not properly taken care of. Key indicator for me would be significant rust on the interior metal parts. This would show lack of grease and oil and most likely left outside.
Also of concern is budget. If $ is no object I don't think you can go wrong with any of the high end Argo products. On the other hand if your just looking for a machine to have fun the Max or a used Argo would be a good value.
I like my Max now that I've restored the machine. I'll be honest it was frustrating to have to work on it so much initially. I modified a few things (tires,bearings etc) now I've been able to enjoy it fully without worry. This wasn't a Max issue just an old used AATV issue. One thing nice about the Max is that it is simple to work on. Like Jerry said I can find just about every part for it at an automotive or Farm store.
As far as looks it kind of grows on you. I always think they look like the old jeep forward control pickups. I'm never concerned about hitting something because: 1. I can see it first due to the good visibility and 2. These things aren't meant to go that fast.
Good luck let us know what you get
Mike |
STEVE Y.
Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 08:28 am: |
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BEN-I AM NOT A DEALER,just a 1000hour user of ARGO's and this is my opinion.The avenger I bought is an 06' I have a family of five and we all love it,the machine is more nimble than my old machine and the power is better the seats are bigger for my growing kids.The price is high but ONTARIO labour rates are high and so is the quality of this machine but almost everything is made at O.D.G. the company that makes the ARGO,the new designed transmission,the axles,extensions,seal plates the body,the gears,most steel accessories,plow and even the frame! they are even powdercoated there; this is a company that is serious about building a tried and tested quality amphibious atv and almost any problems they have they rectify the situation as fast as they can.You can call there service department directly .YOU CAN'T GO WRONG BUYING AN ARGO FOR WORK OR PLAY!
FRED-sorry I didn't word that right,on the T/20 the BANDS to engage either side of the output shafts are subjected to greater stress and increased wear and constant adjustments when heavy loads are placed on it due to not having the increased torque multiplication of a lower gear ratio. |
Kyle Barnett
New member
Username: 6x6beast
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 08:33 am: |
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Ben,
I agree you're going to need something larger than a Max. Like Jerry said, look at Argo 8x8 (6 passenger) or HydroTraxx (7 passenger). I have a HydroTraxx and love it. True, Argos are easier to find, but HT's hold their value.
Are you going to be floating in water much? If so, you need to consider the width of whichever machine you're looking at. I don't rock from side to side while floating like some of the others.
You said the steering was harsh on your last ride? I'm sure all have made improvements since, but you'll never find an AATV smoother to steer than hydraulic drive (HT) and less maintenance.
I don't want to talk Max down as a machine, but for your requirements, I recommend looking at Argo and HydroTraxx. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 419
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 09:21 am: |
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Wow, much improvement. Honest straight forward information and great advice. This is what makes this an excellent source of information and a place to find riding buddies. Being civil is so much more productive than constantly tossing around insults.
Mike, excellent well thought out post. I applaude you.
Steve in reference to being biased I believe you are correct. Some dealers don't have experience with a the different brands of machines and others do. I have seen and worked on Argo and Max. I try to give advice based on what a person is wanting. If a person wants to seat six people then the Max is out. Machines that have not been maintained and abused can all be a huge source of expense and frustration.
My first Argo was based on looks. I didn't like the look of the Max. Then when I drove a Max II I loved the legroom and was impressed at how well it went. When I drove a Max IV I was impressed with thre water speed, and stability and confidence I had cresting hills. Being able to see where I was going was a huge benefit, especially after rolling a couple of times in a an Argo. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 224
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 05:11 pm: |
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Josh, I just set the record (in my opinion) straight. When comments are made that I think false, I try to use humor at times to show how absurd a statement is (I'm sure what I say goes right over some heads, but that is a risk I take and must admit, enjoy). I don't think I have ever made a derogatory comment about a machine or tried to put someone in their place FIRST - my comments always come after some input by another. I make my living from the stock market (am online most of most days); My Max dealership is not profitable and primarily do it because I like the Max and believe that as long as possible I should be here in the remote case that one of my customers has a problem (I initially thought that I might have a good little service business, but that joke was on me too as I generate even less in service and repairs than I generate in sales). For whatever reason, amphibious vehicles do not sell very well here in Montana and out of at least 3 Argo dealer start-ups and at least 5 Max dealership start-ups, I am the only one left sitting (most would say standing, but my productivity has been poor enough over the last several years that I am at risk at retaining my dealership. There is a reason that there are very few Argos operating in Montana regardless of the profitability of the dealerships. Even though I have never even ridden in an Argo (I still cannot find one in use), I have developed a pretty good understanding of how they do talking to people who have owned and used them in addition to reading the sales material put out by the factory. I've said several times that you don't have to put your finger in the fire to know that it is hot. I never suggested that Ben get a Max, I commented on his comment (I though with humor) and gave what I consider good advice.
Ben, In my opinion, a winch is insurance and used to operate a plow . I feel the same way about the roll cage; it is peace of mind as well as it is something to hang onto and an aid in getting into the machine. It also is the support for the top and is real good at keeping branches out of the operators face (can be a little tough on the passenger in the back seat when they snap back). I have never known of a rollover from my customers in actual operation. I had one fellow get his stuck on a stump and while he was getting it off, it rolled over and struck another stump, bending a front axle.
The green max in my profile is a customer's machine. I have been using a 1995 Max IV 600T (in a picture on my web site) as a demonstrator all these years until I sold it last spring. It had no winch and no roll cage (however, I did install a roll cage for the buyer). I'm using a 1995 Buffalo truck as a demo unit now; it does have a winch and roll cage (it is heavy enough that the winch might be needed).
I tell people up front that I am a dealer (since 1994) so they can read my statements with that in mind. I think it is just being honest and straightforward.
Jerry, Thanks for the nice words and the support.
Steve, The T-20 internal bands hold up very well hauling heavy loads. Changing the ATF when needed and using the right fluids helps to ensure long life. There was a period when there were a few too many band failures, but all were taken care of by the factory and that problem has since been solved (it was a problem with the annealing process and the anchor connection failed). I have no idea how many hours it might take to wear off the friction material. I have not seem a worn out band although I have heard of one set of bands where the friction material crumbled (I suspected incorrect fluid or excessive heat from no fluid). The T-20 is a very good transmission. |
STEVE Y.
Intermediate Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 52
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 05:30 pm: |
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JERRY- I am biased about ARGO's but being from ONTARIO and they are still made here and not moved to MEXICO or overseas like alot of other companies.I am very proud of this CANADIAN made machine that is still in business here today ;just as you probally are of RECREATIVE INDUSTRIES and the MAX. |
Eddie L. Beddingfield
Member
Username: Argo2003
Post Number: 39
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 05:49 pm: |
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Jerry,still here,just a reader though.I ruffle to many feathers when get in a discussion. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 420
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 07:03 pm: |
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Great to see you are still with us. Let's set up a ride! |
Ben Lane
New member
Username: Bigben_8
Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 09:18 pm: |
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Thanks guys.
I will look into the Argo 8X8. Sounds like a very capable machine. The schoolyard fight hasnt Sour'd my experience here and Argo I hear has fixed the wine in their tranny so I'm off to a good start. I will let you know when I get my machine. |
Eddie L. Beddingfield
Member
Username: Argo2003
Post Number: 40
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:01 pm: |
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Jerry,I am up for a spring ride,Marion is about 3-3.5 hours away from me.I am off every other weekend,so lets throw some dates around. If anyone wants to try another park,Rockport is now Hannibal Rocks,they allow side by side AAtv's with a rollbar.I checked it out New Years Day and found it to be an excellent park(little of everything, not very big, but packed with trails) |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 422
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 03:06 pm: |
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I'll check the calendar at work. It has been tough getting off work. We have had several injuries and people off for surgery and awaiting surgery. |
My Favorite Machine: Talk about you favorite ATV and Why.