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John Prince
Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 50
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.118
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 07:27 pm: | 
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Okay, well a couple hours on new Argo and my comments:
Bigger engine makes running up hills a ton easier. Didn't experience any carb fuel problem, though I didn't find any first route exceeding thirty degrees(60%); coming back down the same bigger engine adds a lot more backpressure to slow the descent.
But: no way you can squeeze the brake handgrip like you could "sticks". With sticks using both arms, you can brake the machine going down hill to the point of parking it except you'd run the risk of falling over forwards. Not with a handgrip. You can't get any leverage no matter how much strength you have in your hand. I count this as a weakness in braking and without the higher backpressure of the engine, downhill would be very scary now.
I have a couple of runs that approach 45 degree slope. I'm going to have to look for one with a truck runaway escape before I try them out. Too bad this County is so steep. I'm sure most of you out there in the rest of the country will never have my problems.
Higher off the ground. For sure. Never had an issue running over ruts and rocks that were a close scrape before. But higher off the ground means higher center of gravity. I ran a little bit of sidehill going downhill steeply and nearly slid out of the seat onto the ground, though I don't think the machine was tipping, just me. Still, I did not have the problem on the same run before.
Faster, roomier, brawnier, able to leap bigger obstacles, run steeper hills(up) but the jury's out on downhill. And, by the way, whatever goes up must come down. |
Chuck McGhee
Intermediate Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 84
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.170.193.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 08:27 am: |
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John,
the hand grip will get a little easier to use after some more hours, with out changing the braking power. Either that or my left hand has gotten stonger.
Congrats on your new machine. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.128.104.51
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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After test driving one and watching it over a weekend, I was sure you'd be happy with one. I'd probably be trying to optimize the brake system with lube and keep the discs and pads clean, etc. And some slack in the throttle cable was all I could complain about. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 51
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.118
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 03:23 pm: |
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Chuck...hope you are right about the hand grip getting easier. Unless the brakes seat in better and that creates more stopping power, I have some doubt about that hand grip ever matching up with the two sticks. I have a pretty good grip and can bring that handgrip tight. But I can literally stop and park my Van II on a slope. Don't see that happening with existing set up. I wonder why they didn't have a grip on each of the handle bars like a typical quad setup, a brake grip going to 3 wheels on either side?
The manual says not to exceed 30 degree grade, and I can see the brakes will work okay to that slope, though some of slopes I go over are between 30 and 40 degrees and that's my main concern at the moment.
I've had lots of experience with keeping engine rpm up downhill-and its for sure needed. I noticed that if you don't keep the idle up, you run the risk of the idle dropping to the point where that new transmission puts you into what I'd call a neutral position. I think the manual ought to call that out as a safety item. Don't let the engine idle down all the way going downhill! Be interested in what you guys think about that?
When I have my mechanic look it all over at the first oil change, I'll have him look at seeing if I am getting all the braking I can out of the one twist grip. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 52
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.118
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 03:24 pm: |
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PS: turning is now easier! That might have to do with more power in the engine or the transmission, but I can definitely turn easier than on the Van II. Now if I could just stop it. |
Chuck McGhee
Intermediate Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.170.193.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 03:47 pm: |
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It took me a few scary decents before I figured out to not just idle down hills using only the hand brake. That and watching the belt to see how exactly it worked. Maybe they should include a "tip" or "suguestion" about not idling down a hill.
My hand brake has enough stopping power to stand the unit on the nose. I would not advise this, as it will scare the crap out of you.
But I have done it twice. Once to avoid hitting my dog and once when I wasn't paying close enough attention to what I was doing.
(wide open in high gear and then grabbing full brake = bad idea) |
Dennis F. Saskowski
Intermediate Member
Username: Sasko
Post Number: 96
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 68.64.195.56
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 04:58 pm: |
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I feel your down hill pain guys,my max 4 can get a little scary down hill with a steep grade.Tried running 15 p.s.i in my front tires at copper ridge this past summer seemed to help.A little rough on the seat but didn't have so much bounce.My theory is that all the weight tranfer on the front tires won't compress them as much and have that recoil effect. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 53
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.118
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 07:45 pm: |
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chuck...I don't know how you stood that on its end with the hand brake. Its raining now so am not going to try it in steep downhill mud. I wasn't able to even completely bring it to a stop downhill at slow speeds...it kept creeping downhill. Now, this was on at least a 30 degree grade, maybe a little more. But then, reading your remarks, maybe I wasn't squeezing it as hard as I could??? But you didn't say if you were on the flat or down a steep slope?
And, for sure, the factory ought to warn downhill riders that keeping the rpm up past idle is a necessity. They have it as a "choice". Ha! Like to take their engineer for a ride with me.
Dennis...that 15psi would kill my neck and back...I'm too old...have to have soft tire ride or I feel it for 24 hrs in my neck. Interesting theory though. With my Van II, I can inch down the steepest hill, 45 degrees, and I mean a couple inches at a time. That's what I don't see the Frontier doing. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 54
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.118
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 07:48 pm: |
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chuck...I don't know how you stood that on its end with the hand brake. Its raining now so am not going to try it in steep downhill mud. I wasn't able to even completely bring it to a stop downhill at slow speeds...it kept creeping downhill. Now, this was on at least a 30 degree grade, maybe a little more. But then, reading your remarks, maybe I wasn't squeezing it as hard as I could??? But you didn't say if you were on the flat or down a steep slope?
And, for sure, the factory ought to warn downhill riders that keeping the rpm up past idle is a necessity. They have it as a "choice". Ha! Like to take their engineer for a ride with me.
Dennis...that 15psi would kill my neck and back...I'm too old...have to have soft tire ride or I feel it for 24 hrs in my neck. Interesting theory though. With my Van II, I can inch down the steepest hill, 45 degrees, and I mean a couple inches at a time. That's what I don't see the Frontier doing. |
Chuck McGhee
Intermediate Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.170.193.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 12:48 pm: |
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When I stood it on its nose one time was going up the rolling hills in my yard and the other time was on flat ground. But I have stopped on steep grades when riding before.
Both times my winch touched the ground.
From what you have said it sounds like you might not have full braking power. |
Chuck McGhee
Intermediate Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 87
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.170.193.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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I have felt the backend feel like it was lifting off the ground on some wteep downhill runs while braking. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 55
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
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Well, that's what I'll try and find out during break in is whether I'm getting full braking out of the handgrip. Of course, I dont' want to find that out the hard way. Fortunately I got a couple thousand acres to find gradually changing slopes. When I take it for its first oil change, I should have a pretty good idea if there is an adjustment issue.
I'll probably try standing on the brakes on the flat also, see if I can duplicate your stop when there's no issue of slopes.
Anyway Chuck, thanks for responding again. |
Bob Shelver
Member
Username: Curly
Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 209.193.76.113
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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Gentlemen do you remember the first time we put a toy or cabinet together straight out of the box and got it almost together and saw something wrong, then reluctantly we went to the instructions to see what the problem was. The Argo is no different. Now I will concede the brake handle needs some work and I understand that is in the works at the factory, but in the owner operators manual it talks at length about downhill operation and it dose tell you to and I quote "Select low range and keep the engine speed up just above idle to keep the clutch engaged” .Also it talks about extreme down hill operation and shifting weight to the rear of the machine to avoid rollover. I am a mechanic and I find myself needing to read more and more as things change. I make a good amount of my service work dollars because of improper maintenance and operation. It’s a large ego pill to swallow but we can’t all of us know it all. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 56
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
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Well, being something of an expert on the subject of operation on steep and steeper slopes, as I am faced with them constantly...
the manual says. p 17, "An alternative to applying the brakes while going donw a gentle decline is to use the engine braking. Select low range and keep engine speed up just enough to keep the clutch engaged".
Well, in my opinion, on steeper slopes it is not an alternative but a necessary minimum, frankly as valuable if not more so than the brakes themselves, and it ought to say that.
In the previous paragraph it says "Do not jam on the brakes while traveling downhill. Sudden braking can cause the vehicle to roll over frontwards".
Now, that is an accurate assessment using the sticks in my Van II. No way do you jam those sticks abruptly downhill as you would stop on a dime and could roll frontwards.
But that is not what I have found on the Frontier. On the frontier I could use Visegrips on the handbrake and I'd only end up with a moderate slowing down, never a stop, and a steady creeping down afterwards. There's not a hint of possible rolling over frontwards with that kind of snail like stop.
Admittedly, I probably live in the steepest terrain in the whole country. And, I go out of my way to avoid anything over the 30 degrees the manual talks about. Still, I think they should have a brake system that works past 30 degrees, as real world situations don't always match up to factory specs.
And as for the "select low range....engaged", they should start that sentence with WARNING. If I hadn't had years of downhill experience with an ARGO before I went down my first hill in the Frontier, I could have easily been in an accident had I not known low gear was a minimum prerequisite.
I was, however, heartened to hear that the factory might be working on this handbrake issue. I would only hope if they come up with an alternative, they put out a retro kit. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 384
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.244.171.93
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 01:41 pm: |
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I would really like to see a video of these hills with the Frontier going up and down them. What do you do if the engine dies? |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 57
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 06:01 pm: |
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Jerry...I think about that a lot. And the engine has died a couple of times-on the flat. I make sure it doesn't die. That is a big concern of mine. Before I start downhill I rev the engine a few times, then bring it up as high as I can for engine braking without actually adding forward speed.
In all fairness, with the Van II, it was a lot of work to go downhill. Smaller engine(16hp) I had maybe 60% of the gas engine backpressure so worked the sticks very hard all the while having to bring the engine idle up higher than is necessary in the Frontier.
As for picts, I'll upload one that shows a couple slope approximations. Keep in mind some of these slope runs are going to be several hundred feet in length. I will go out with a friend next time and bring my camera |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 58
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 07:49 pm: |
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Well, hrs 2 and 3 on Frontier: it goes anywhere, great approach angle, engine taxi's uphill with two people, barely need low gear. Obstacles within reason disappear underneath. didn't even really encounter much of sidehill issues, though was careful about where I went.
Brakes. No. Jury still out on that. Yes, I could stop reasonably abruptly on flat ground, but not on a dime for sure. Perhaps they are not fully seated in, perhaps not adjusted, who knows. Downhill. No way. Engine braking does a really good job on top of the brakes. But they work against each other to some extent. By keeping idle high enough for engine back pressure you are also pushing forward against the brakes. Using them both together you can show descent reasonably and safely. As for stopping downhill, can't be done. With brakes fully squeezed and no engine idle, on a slope I continued slowly moving forward.
There ought to have been brake grips on both left and right hand for more leverage as the obvious solution I think.  |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 165
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.111.68
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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I'd go straight to argo technical and ask them what's the deal |
Bob Shelver
Member
Username: Curly
Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.71.177.119
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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John Given that the lever is hard to apply it also could be that the plungers on your master cylinders could need adjustment. If the park brake setting still won't hold then you are just not getting the brake shoes tight enough on the disk brake. In the owners book it gives some fair instructions, they are not real good but it talks about plunger adjustment flush with the opening of the casting. We many times take it about 1/16" deep in the casting or just so you can see the inside of the cylinder the plunger slide in to give a quicker application. To do this you must adjust the plunger rods on both masters. You need 10mm and 11mm wrenches and a small allan wrench. The machine must roll freely after you do this or you may see your brakes get hot. What we are doing here is making the plunger pressure the caliper sooner. What they have done is put stiffer springs in the masters to center the steering bar when you are not turning. I think that is what is causing most of the difficulty. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 59
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 11:22 am: |
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Bob...thanks very much for the tech advice. I have a very good local motorcycle/quad mechanic and I will see him shortly for the first oil change and will have him pursue your line of reasoning here.
And Roger I will see what mechanic has to say before I or he calls Argo for help here. Meanwhile, I am taking precautions downhill.
However, since this Frontier will go just about anywhere I point it I don't like laying back just because there's a steep downhill ahead. Well, guess I will lay back for a bit longer.  |
Chuck McGhee
Intermediate Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 66.232.175.74
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 08:07 pm: |
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John, the Frontier Looks awesome. Would love to see that thing in the mud. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 151
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.27.205.99
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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ODG is aware of the Frontier hand brake issue and they're working on a fix. It is very difficult to use but I am hoping it loosens up with some use and will be more effective. Aside from the hand brake, the Frontier is one awesome machine. Both the Avenger and Frontier are so much different from past vehicles. I wouldn't know it was an Argo without the brand badge on the front. Fast, fun, and powerful performance... a big change from past models. |
Jack Ouellette
Member
Username: Beungood
Post Number: 28
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.65
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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How does the Frontier and Avenger stack up against each other? Advantages disadvantages of each? top speed wise? Larger Engine choices? |
Len Cater
New member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 72.138.89.77
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:35 pm: |
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Can't answer about the Frontier but I put the tracks on my Avenger. Normally we could go about 30kph as calculated from gps. With the tracks on I was able to get up to 28-29kph which I was very surprised about. I know on the Conquest and Bigfoot, there was about a 40% loss in speed with tracks. This is the standard Avenger and not the new gearing. |
Jack Ouellette
Member
Username: Beungood
Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.65
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 09:32 am: |
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How fast is this in MPH? What is the new gearing? Are both offered? What are advantages and disadvantages in performance? Is this just for Avenger or does the big foot and Frontiier get gearing options also? |
Len Cater
New member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 216.137.162.75
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 09:54 am: |
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.66 x kph = mph. 30kph = 20mph.
The new avenger is now offered with 2 gearing options, with the new gearing set up for those running tracks year round. The specs on the website. Not sure about the Frontier. |
Jack Ouellette
Member
Username: Beungood
Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.65
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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What are the performance differances between the transmissions? |
Tom Phillips
Member
Username: Dozerdawg
Post Number: 39
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 204.96.145.213
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:40 pm: |
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Len: Do you have the new Avenger EFI. I traded in my 06 Avenger for the new EFI, with tracks, but haven't even gotten it off the trailer yet to see how it runs. I'm more into getting through the muck and mud duck hunting than the speed. I'm planning on leaving my tracks on year round. |
Len Cater
New member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 216.137.162.75
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 03:21 pm: |
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Nope, we have the 06 avenger and based on the performance of this weekend, I plan to keep the tracks all year. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 60
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 08:00 pm: |
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Missouri Max...hope ODG comes up with this soon with a retro kit. My mechanic has several solutions he's thinking of, but don't want to go there if ODG does the right thing.
The Frontier goes virtually anywhere with impunity. I am able to go thru ditches and cuts that I would not have done before. That is due to bigger tires, bigger engine, and blunter body design. That all works great!
The Frontier will take myself and passenger up any hlll...in high gear!
But, what goes up....
Downhill, I asked my passenger to walk as I did not want the extra weight(momentum). There is a sweet point in the rpm in low gear that gives decent back pressure without adding speed for the initial start. Then, apply the brakes simultaneously. There is at least a two second delay before the brakes add to slowing the machine.
If you went to brakes only, would not reach bottom safely.
The combination of rpm and brakes works...for 100' to 150' max. On a really long and steep downhill run, say 300 to 400', well, I just wouldn't do it now as I don't like the odds for the outcome.
The Frontier goes anywhere, bigger engine, tires, body shaped for approach, probably it is twice the machine my Van II. Except of course, my Van II goes down hill safely. |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 236
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 206.172.251.87
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:26 pm: |
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John, I sure hope that ODG comes up with a solution quickly. I am really excited that you like every other aspect of the Frontier so much.I am interested to know if the machine that you have has an electric cooling fan on the brakes. As you may have read, the one I looked at did not. W. Philip Cox |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 61
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.241.172
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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You know, I don't know that about the fan on the brakes?? I have been careful breaking in the brakes not to overuse them, haven't heard a noise that sounds like a fan? Of course, since I've avoided any long downhills where the brakes might overheat, perhaps that's a reason also.
Between now and end of next week I will have to navigate a 1000 acre ranch. It has two long downhill roads, not particularly steep(25% grade) but a chance to look for brake fade as you might be pointing towards.
Another minor issue that I haven't said anything about as it may be nothing more than an adjustment though it may not be: if you let the engine idle all the way down, it often dies, needing a restart. Doesn't matter whether warmed up or not. This is no particular issue, though it is absolute reason the maintain rpm downhill. It never dies if you maintain minimum rpm. As I say, may only be an idle adjustment. But the new transmission needs idling all the way down before changing gears, so that adjustment tricky.
Okay, so, I'll have my mechanic look for an electric fan on the brakes too. I see him 3rd week in December, will report all back. |
Dennis F. Saskowski
Intermediate Member
Username: Sasko
Post Number: 97
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 68.64.195.56
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:04 am: |
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Heard a lot of talk about yuz guys down hill discussions.I have a max 4 wich isn't much better than what I heard about your machines with being seated over the front wheels with 5 gals. of gas in front of me.I tried something a little different on my down hill descents,try just braking on one side then quickly brake the other side,seems my machine won't want to tea kettle if I kind of crab walk it down keeping a little pressure on the parking brake.I had motor die outs on down hill,turned out to be a slight crack in the pulse fuel pump on the dry side,of course my motor is in the back and fuel tank is in the front,your set up is different but something you might want to check,this crack was noticed only after 30 hrs. on the machine |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 155
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.27.205.34
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 09:30 pm: |
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The Frontier does not use a brake cooling fan. Time will tell if that works ok... surely ODG tested this enough to know if the brakes will over heat with lots of steering. Maybe we can't count on that to much since they built a vehicle without the ability to STOP.
Idle adjustment is common, John. All you need to do is bump it up just a little bit. Adjust while at operating temp and you should be good to go. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 62
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.250.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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Dennis...I have been thinking about just that technique, braking one side and then the other, quickly. It would be easy to do on Frontier as you don't have to pull "sticks" way back, just a short yank side to side. I was thinking that what with keeping the rpm up for back pressure, that braking side to side might just work, certainly something to try out as the emergency backup braking situation if the handgrip brake cable every went slack!
What I wasn't sure about was whether that would force me into a partial turn or whether it would simply be a slight jerking back and forth. But its definitely worth trying for emergency situation if nothing else. I'm going out this morning, but with passenger. Might not be able to try that out what with having to tell a passenger "why don't you get and walk this stretch downhill so only one of us gets killed".
MIssouri Max. Okay, good to know, won't listen for electric brake. Not really sure I expected brake fade anyway. Probably because I use the engine back pressure so much, though there are moments when you wouldn't want brake fade for sure.
I guessed the idle adjustment all that's needed and as I said, make sure I manually throttle it up downhill, the only time its an issue.
Okay, today, 1000 acres, mostly easy roads, a couple of steep tracks with no roads I'd definitely like to get to the top of. Maybe I should tow the Van II behind me for when it gets to steep? |
Len Cater
Junior Member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 72.138.89.77
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 12:14 am: |
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John, where did you get the mudflaps from? Homemade or jury rigged Centaur flaps?
Definitely needed for the Avenger tracks and it throws mud and water up and forward into the cabin.
tks |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 63
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.250.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 01:06 pm: |
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Len...mud flaps were apparently factory accessories, had them installed when I picked up machine, on their accessory list, definitely do keep the mud from being tossed into the back seat.
Okay, so yesterday, 1000 acres, had to make the whole loop, 5 miles, brakes only showed signs of hard use on the main roads where I was driving fast and braking hard into turns.
Had two serious uphill runs, one short one of about 100 feet, one long one on 300 feet, both 40 to 45 degrees, the long one pretty scary, but Frontier ground it out with myself and passenger. With Van II passenger would have had to walk.
Fortunately, the route took me down a 30 degree slope which the Frontier was able to accomplish without a brake issue as long as I used engine backpressure effectively. I would not have attempted the 45 degree downhill, at least not without brake adjustment input.
The windshield: never had one before. Cuts the heck out of the windchill, a sunny cold day just over freezing and what with the heat from engine and sun thru windshield, made for a comfortable long day. I recommend the windshield strongly. As for top and sides, you're only going to want that stuff if you are sitting in a duck blind or fishing in bad weather.
Hard ride. Well, one thing I also notice as difference. The Van II w/runamucks is a softer ride than the Frontier's new special tires. Interestingly, they look a lot alike except new Frontier tires much heavier duty, stand up stiff with 3 lbs air in them whereas runnamucks soft and balloon like with even less air. I got to say, I like the runnamuck ride for a long day. Of course, putting them on Frontier would probably drop me a couple inches ground clearance, but maybe old guys don't care about rock hopping.  |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 173
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.156.111
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 01:59 pm: |
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Let some air out John. The frontier I saw ran hard all weekend at 2.5 psi, no bead loss. |
Len Cater
Junior Member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 72.138.89.77
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 07:10 pm: |
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John, great looking country you are riding in. I'll check with my dealer here then as they are are a must (the mudflaps). The windsheild is a great option to have although prone to breaking, EVEN when strapped down. If you catch a branch and it torques it, the windsheild will break. I've broken 4 including our newest Avenger one. We had the dealer install an extra windshield pole in the center of the hood (cut down to ensure level with the other 2 poles. This works well in that it provides center support to the windsheild frame when you jam it while folded down. I highly recommend this modification. Here is a photo showing the center post.
 |
Derek Hubbard
Member
Username: Justmax
Post Number: 38
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.64.127.199
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 09:27 pm: |
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Hello Len:
Great picture of the two Argos, but I have one question for you? Why are the tires on the yellow Argo backwards? For more traction maybe?....Just wondering?
Derek |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 64
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.250.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 01:03 pm: |
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In the pict I have reached the top of the ridge behind the 1000 acre ranch, climbed about 1600 ft in 2 miles, typical for around here. You can see all the way down to where I started.
Thanks Len. Getting to be a long list of changes, alterations. Dealer too far away to get this stuff done but have high end mechanic can do anything(mostly works on Harleys, other bikes, took the time to read my manual etc).
I always saw the windshield as a high risk item. It seems to ride nicely on the existing two poles, but clearly you are right, anything that torks the middle's going to break it. I can't figure why they haven't gone to a heavy duty plastic on these things?
Mostly the country I ride in is "steep", have to get to ridges before you are comfortable, and no time to be careful running up 35 to 45 degree slopes, have to go all out and hope you are going to encounter obstacle or slow the rpm with a turn. The quad accidents here are horrific, by the way, never get thru a season without a couple guys in major injuries or worse. One big advantage of 6x6's, harder to roll. I don't think I could even have done it in the Van II unless it was extreme sidehill. Frontier a roomier fit, nearly slid off the seat and and fell out of the thing the first time a hit a sidehill. If that had happened, the Frontier would have kept going and not turned over, just have left me behind(I guess I would have deserved it). Van II you were jammed up against the engine wall with your knees and could brace yourself pretty well.
Rogersmith...I am running 3 lbs now, will go to 2.5 lbs. Despite all the hoopla, those soft little runnamucks also leave the least trail behind on somebody's land...and that's another issue for some of my ranch owners: scarring the ground. Of course a typical Quad would be way worse. |
Len Cater
Junior Member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 72.138.89.77
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 07:15 pm: |
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That's my cousin's bigfoot and actually never noticed. He probably does not know the differene. We do very little deep water running, so mainly mud and rock, and the traction helps. We just pulled them off after the ride above to put the tracks on for the winter. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 65
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.250.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:21 pm: |
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Well, looks like this week I'll get put to the downhill test even if I am not ready. I should force ODG engineer to fly out for the road, seems only appropriate. Anyway, I mapped this route before on the Van II, barely able to climb this long run much of which stays in the 40 degree range for many hundreds of feet. Here is topo of that run & pict once on top. This is the same run that Fred went on with my a number of years back when we were both young enough to roll out of these machines before they rolled us  |
Chuck McGhee
Intermediate Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 94
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.170.193.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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That sure is some beautiful country for running an argo. Sure would be nice to have. |
Jack Ouellette
Member
Username: Beungood
Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.65
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 02:20 pm: |
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Where is that area, it looks awesome! |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 66
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 71.141.250.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
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Well, I live in Mendocino County, on Northern California Coast, Ukiah is nearest town of any size(and that's not much). The County is 10% flat and 90% unflat, and I mean "unflat". It is prime redwood and fir growing country which always means steep slopes, especially steep Northern slopes. The trees are pretty much logged out for this generation but there's still enough money floating around from the San Francisco area to sell some of this ground.
I only have to drive 10 minutes out of town to be in the middle of nowhere. I realize most of the rest of the country a lot flatter and all my complaints about brakes has less impact elsewhere I'm sure. When I owned a MAX(yes did), I had to modify the left stick with an extension so I could get lots of leverage for braking downhill. I wish I could do something similar with Frontier. Maybe I ought to carry an anchor, just toss it out behind me when the going gets steep. Besides steep, I am constanting running into 1000 year old roadblocks that there's no going over and around means sidehill |
Russ Federico
New member
Username: Russ344
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 63.207.107.227
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 04:59 pm: |
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Hello, I'm new to the board and a new Argo owner. Has anyone else noticed the seam on the top back of the Frontier? To me it looked like they made the top from an 8x8 mold and then cut it to form the 6x6 Frontier. I called ODG and asked if there would be an 8x8 Frontier released soon. They would not deny or admit to it, but they did say that if it was true, the new model would probably be released this summer. Has anyone else heard about a new 8x8 coming out? Thanks. |
Len Cater
Junior Member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 216.137.162.75
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 06:18 pm: |
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Good news Russ, they do have an 8 wheel version of the Frontier, called the Avenger. It actually came out first. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 159
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:43 pm: |
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Russ you are right, the Frontier is made from the 8x8 mold. Some didn't like it at first but it is really no big deal. It fits very well and still looks nice. Right now it looks like there will be a new 8x8 'Frontier style' model to replace the Response. Last I heard they were talking about two years to release it. I don't know why they would wait that long. Maybe they'll do it next fall with the 2008 model release. I would think it would be like the Response, except with the new Frontier body, custom Argo tires, and 23hp engine. That would make a lot better and more capable Response than what they have now.
Also, the Frontier and Avenger have completely different bodies. |
Jack Ouellette
Member
Username: Beungood
Post Number: 32
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 05:01 pm: |
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What is the mold issue? a seam where water can enter? I thought the Frontier was made from the Avenger and had the same body shape? What are the differances? What are the performance differances between Avenger and Frontier and what would be the differances between Avenger and a Frontier 8x8 both size and performance wise? |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:40 pm: |
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I just got word on a new easier to pull brake lever for the Argos. They claim the old one took 35 pounds of pull compared to this one that takes 15 pounds of pull to fully activate. With any luck that should work quite a bit better. No info yet on updating current models. I'll let you know when I find out.
Jack - There really is no Frontier body mold issue and certainly nothing where water can enter. ODG made only one upper body mold for the 8x8 and simply cuts a section out to make the 6x6 mold. Look at the Avenger and Frontier pics closely and you can see that both upper and lower bodies are completely different.
Len Cater - In the pic you posted above, it appears the Avenger brush gaurd is mounted upside down. Was that done by mistake or is there a reason for doing so? |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 68
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 08:30 pm: |
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I just sent email to my dealer to see what they know about that pull brake lever. I'm due to take Frontier into my mechanic end of next week, would hold off any modifications if I thought retro kit coming. Missouri Max...keep my informed. Thanks. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 69
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
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More on Brakes: yesterday I took along a passenger, maybe 175 lbs. Reaching a downhill of maybe 35 degrees, after a short stretch, I had to have him get out and walk as the extra weight was beyond the braking. At the bottom of that hill, on a very slight incline, the hand brake would not hold the machine, it constantly creeped forward. Since that handbrake is very tightly against the handle, I can help but think these brakes need adjustment regardless of pull pressure. I take it in end of next week for my mechanic to make those brake adjustments suggested by Bob Shelver.
As my mechanic is highly skilled(Harleys KLM racing bikes) and has maintained both my Van II and previous Max, has all the manuals etc. I am expecting a very knowledgeable independent view of the Frontier's braking capacity(s) which I'll be sure and send to the discussion group.
We will also be looking a a way to modify the brake hand lever pressure just in case ODG lags behind on this issue.
I adjusted tire pressure from 3 lbs to 2.5 lbs, or as close as you can get to that sort of thing and found that the difference sufficiently cushioned the ride(no post trauma neck).
Oh, and by the way, managed to map a mile of new road to be built via GPS. So, at least I'm still getting my job done. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 167
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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John, did you need to stop often on this hill or just want to go slower? Low gear will easily take two people down a hill at a safe speed. Stopping on a hill is the only time you really need the hand brake. I can drive the Argo anywhere without touching that brake so I'm curious as to why you couldn't get down this hill. The only real danger I see in this tough hand brake is when the driver needs a panic stop for something that pops up quickly. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 70
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 07:35 pm: |
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Well, by myself, yes, correct, engine holds me back nicely. I weigh about 225 lbs. Now, add the second guy, let's say my friend of 175 lbs, that's 400 lbs, pushing over 30 degrees, nope, engine holds us about 100' then a speeding up that is definitely unsafe, have to go to brake, and brake hard and hold it, all the while keeping engine idle up enough for engine backpressure which is somewhat of an oxymoron as engine idle staying up now working slightly against brakes.
It may just turn out that 30 degrees is all the Frontier safely goes downhill, end of conversation. That will be most disappointing. On a newer Honda ATV with auto transmission, there is at least one gear lower than the Argo and no rpm necessary for the gear to work, so that together with the brakes are 100% effective.
With the Van II, there is simply better leverage with sticks, can apply more pulling pressure than anything you can do with a single handgrip. So, on Van II, I could safely descend 35 degrees with a passenger, in fact, inch my way down, the leverage on the brakes very effective while still holding the rpm in low gear.
Well, we'll see what mechanic thinks next week. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 09:55 pm: |
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There is an adjustment for the hand brake cable right near where it connects to the steering brakes. I see in your last post you said the lever pulled all the way to your hand grip. The lever is hard to pull, but it's totally ineffective if it goes all the way to the grip. Tighten it up with this adjustment and see if you have better luck.
Also, make sure your drive belt is at the correct tension. A tighter belt will let you creep slower at a lower RPM. Don't get it so tight that it creeps at idle. These new trans cluches are really easy to adjust and I've found that belt tensions differ greatly between vehicles. |
Sam Robertson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sam
Post Number: 92
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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Sounds like the much promoted Frontier is not the best thing in the world, really argo should do a better job BEFORE delivering it to the customer.
Maybe they will wait untill they get a big legal battle when someone gets hurt, you dealers should think about that, Remember what happened to Sierra. I am sure the once MAX is the best, now ARGO is the best thing since sliced bread person will reply.
 |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 71
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 12:26 pm: |
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Missouri Max thanks for that information...I'll add it to my maintenance which turns out to be Tuesday. For sure I have to bring that brake almost to grip itself before it "catches". This could well fit into same issue of the brakes not adjusted as suggested by Bob Shever earlier.
Sam Robertson: I kind of agree with what you are saying though you know that same braking lever operation has been what they have been using in the other models for the last two years I beleve? I think the steeper ground out here is atypical of the USA, probably why I am the only complaining while everybody else is happily moving around more level country. The Argo manual does talk about not exceeding a 30 degree slope which I guess is a warning that the braking & the engine back pressure isn't going to stop you well beyond that. And, perhaps I got more braking out of the Van II than most of the rest of you ever had to think about. There's nothing like being at the top of the roller coaster looking down to make you think about braking.
As for somebody getting hurt? Yes, I agree that's a possibility on steeper ground. Though again, I sometimes think I'm the only one that lives in that kind of country. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 403
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 02:42 pm: |
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John you are not the only person with steep hills. A lot of us contend with steep hills. I think your machine may be a case of improper set up by the dealer and adjustments need to be made. |
Eddie L. Beddingfield
Member
Username: Argo2003
Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 05:20 pm: |
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The brake on my Avenger was more than adequate,it would stop machine going down any hill.I think you are a little out of adjustment.John , you are going to have better braking on your older machine.The brakes were direct hydralic(pull lever it pushed on the plunger)( new setup is cable activated hydralic)There will be more effort and some cable stretch from time to time.You can keep the brakes more effective by using brake cleaner every so often to flush the dust off the pads and rotors. Eddie |
Mike Maroni
Intermediate Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 85
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 09:10 pm: |
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John,
How did you stop and let the passenger out? Or did he just jump on the fly?  |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 72
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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Yes well I am hopeful you are all correct about the brakes just needing a complete readjustment. And I already guessed that about the cable being a constant point of readjustment. And it is also clear that I probably can bring to bear several times to force pulling back on sticks than squeezing a handgrip.
I kind of wondered what you all were doing out there with the same mechanism on the heavier Avenger? Had to be same issue going down steep(er) hills.
How did my passenger get out? Well, I kind of planned it that way. This hill had two steep runs, one was maybe 50' and the second 150' approximately. There was a bit of flat in between. I picked it out to experiment on. When I saw us picking up momentum at the first short run I stopped in between and told him he best walk.
Momentum is the big issue. At a certain point, I don't know precisely, 30+ degrees, the engine hold back works. But inevitably there are steeper short sections and them momentum carries the vehicle past any point where low gear momentum can hold it back without even more momentum. The great snowball effect. Then the brakes. I apply them and nothing for two or three seconds, then they kick in and slow me down enough along with the engine back pressure to get to the bottom. However, as posted several times, when it is steep enough I simply retreat and haven't gone down yet.
In the Van II, there was much less engine backpressure(16 hp of course). With it, their is enough brake pressure that without the engine you can literally lock them up and stop going down hill(and tip over frontward). With the Frontier not a chance. So, presumming same brakes, a little more weight, it has to be the amount of pressure applied to those brakes or the brakes themselves not seating sufficiently well.
Fortunately, I knew this would be a potential issue before I went out the first time so selected only gradually steeper situations.
Enough of my amateur rambling thoughts. We'll see what my mechanic says and can do this week. |
Mike Maroni
Intermediate Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 86
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 05:07 pm: |
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The new argo Frontier is unstopable!!! |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 73
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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"Unstopable". Hmmmm. I didn't think of that one. Well actually I hope that's not the case. Otherwise they might have to start using those crash dummies in their ads. Anyway, loading it up this morning for mechanic's input, probably have some independent feeback tomorrow, though its most likely going to be "give this a try". And, since this County is also known for its torrential December rains, might have to wait for Santa Claus to settle the issue. |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 242
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:14 pm: |
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Micmac, God will get you for that one. W. Philip |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 74
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 03:36 pm: |
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And, the report card is in!!
When the mechanic drove it into the shop, he didn't squeeze hard enough on the brake lever not realizing the effort needed and nearly crashed into an expensive Harley(I wonder if that would have showed on my bill).
Okay, well the brake adjustment suggested by bob
shelver and Missouri Max got performed today. My mechanic said there was some room for adjustment, that both sides were not braking equally, and he made those adjustments as well as the lockup parking brake now not requiring the lever be pulled so close to the handle bar. We also changed the fuel mixture which brought the idle right up to where it should have been.
He also stated that while there was plenty of hydraulic brakes at the wheel drums, BUT the brake cable lever set up on the grip was entirely INADEQUATE to apply, hold and maintain sufficient force to both hydraulic systems for any serious braking. The obvious fix was a longer more substantisl handle grip lever. He had an old one that he did a temp installation, said that brought the pressure needed to less than 1/2 of what existing setup requires now. Since that had no parking brake setup, we left the original brake lever in place.
He will be able to adapt an available new Honda handle brake that will do the job adquately. He also thought there might be room for a foot brake which would give even better leverage, but thought best we start with Honda handbrake retrofit.
So, I will wait another 30 days, see if Argo comes up with a retro kit. If not, I will proceed with my own fix as, in the words of my mechanic, the present set up is worse case stopping for such a heavy machine and should have been addressed at the design stage.
I would guess that one should look for the factory to simply come out with a replacement lever longer and stouter than the existing grip.
By the way, the reason one uses the word "lever" is the word leverage. Little short levers = little leverage. If I were a new prospective buyer of a Frontier, I would insist on that handbrake being available before purchase.
Now, by the time I get thru, this will cost about $100 in parts & the same in labor. That does not include the cost of today's brake adjustment. I consider myself fortunate to have a mechanic that understands the basics of stop and go on machines.
Even though I am from California, not everybody has our Governor's grip and I like the idea of stopping when headed downhill. |
Chuck McGhee
Intermediate Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 03:58 pm: |
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John,
Good to hear you have a temporary fix.
I had forgot about it but I had the orginal brake lever break on me. My dealer had a new lever drop shipped to me. I didn't get any replies but here is the thread.
http://www.route6x6.com/discus4/messages/5/20847.html?1152822486 |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 171
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 04:54 pm: |
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John, good to hear you got something to stop your vehicle. You are right about the leverage and the force required to engauge the brakes was the problem from the start. ODG's new brake reduces the amount of pull needed to stop the vehicle. The current system will stop the Frontier on a hill but it is so hard to pull that it is almost ineffective anyway. I am told that the retrofit kit will be available in January. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 75
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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That retrofit kit ought to be free to all previous purchasers, be it avenger, frontier or earlier model. Anyway, as I said, I'll wait the month, see what they come up with. I pretty much have to sit out this month anyway what with weather. Otherwise I'll just proceed and have it custom created at my end.
Missouri Max: yes I agree with you how the current system will stop you but you can't maintain enough pressure with your hand on a long downhill all the while steering and keeping idle up. As I stated previously, once you reach a certain angle, somewhere about 30 degrees, the backpressure won't hold you back and you will gain momentum. It is pretty scary moment. That's when I have almost squeezed so hard I thought I would break the current lever. If you had a decent replacement system requiring half the pressure, I think you would be pretty much back to the downhill I am used to with the Van II.
Hopefuly ODG wades in pretty quick on this. Frankly, I think they have some liability for potential accidents with the existing system. Yesterday I heard about Polaris and Honda and Kawasaki's ATV and six wheel solutions to braking from my mechanic, all of them so obvious.
Fortunately, I have a great deal of respect for the steep countryside around me and have a half dozen trial routes of differing degrees of steepness to test both brakes and uphill engine continuity. I would't want to be some new off roader though used to a Honda ATV and suddenly find myself on a rollercoaster instead. |
Jack Ouellette
Member
Username: Beungood
Post Number: 35
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 05:07 pm: |
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What were Polaris,Honda and Kawi's Soloutions to the braking problem? |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 76
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 07:39 pm: |
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I wish I could be a bit more technical with my memory on what he said. All of them have several low gears, letting you select lower gears. All the engines held rpm up without you having to keep it there with hand grip. That alone would be a hell of difference. Polaris had a footbrake giving a lot more torque because you use you leg. Actually I don't care much for that having been out on Polaris, as you are not in a car like position, have to lift foot up, push down, not just push in like in a car seated position.
Honda has brake handgrips on both sides. Of course that's a quad. But you can see that if you have two handgrips applying brakes, the engine is in low gear and you don't have to worry about minimum rpm, your braking is easy. Now, a quad has its own issues, believe me. While you can go straight up and down nicely, you can't turn with any kind of a decent radius, and sidehill is way worse than Argo.
Actually I have time in Polaris for six wheeler(multiple passenger) also. Hated them! Too high off ground makes it tippy. As stated up above, don't like that foot brake. Side hill is impossible, lousy turning radius.
Kawasaki Mule is a 4 wheel drive 4 whl affair, a smaller Polaris, better for a ranch situation.
So, what am I saying here? The 6 wheelers, ARgo and Max, beat all these others as to where and how they go, do it safer, but not with as much polish-especially in the case of the Honda. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 77
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 07:39 pm: |
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Missouri Max: Had a call yesterday from Dealer about sending me a new brake handle. Didn't get a chance to call back and of course next four days nothing's going to happen but Christmas. Has Argo let you know the replacement now available or maybe its just them thinking my current one is broken? |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 181
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:49 pm: |
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New Frontiers with the updated brake lever have come in. I have not personally tried one yet but my distributor says they work great. Smooth and easy to pull like a real brake should be. Right now it looks like ODG will give this as a free upgrade to all Frontier owners. I believe they are making enough kits for production and then going to existing machines. No official word yet on when they will be available. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 185
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 08:27 pm: |
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ODG has just given official word on the hand brake. It is available as a free upgrade and can be installed by your dealer on all vehicles with these serial numbers:
Argo 6x6: 14989 to 15536
Argo 8x8: 23535 to 25273
Frontier and Avenger kit part #165-20. All other models with handle bar steering are #165-21.
I will post a performance report once I get a kit installed. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 79
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 11:45 am: |
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That could save me a few bucks, comes just in the nick of time so I don't have to pay for same parts(Honda). I sent my dealer an email just now. thanks for that update |
Chuck McGhee
Advanced Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 11:51 am: |
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Assuming that they are numbered in order, my Argo is 41 units to old to get a new brake handle. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 80
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 03:53 pm: |
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Well, according to my dealer, its not a brake handle, its a longer brake cable with a double back pulley to reduce the effort. Supposedly on a few minutes to install. So, handle stays as the original. The "factory" is running behind several weeks supposedly for one to be shipped to me. After consulting with my mechanic, we have decided to also replace the handle with the Honda parts previously described...will do that next week(about $100) and then will install the factory pulley when it arrives. I will send photo new handle & upload with report on it.
Overkill? Well, 40 degrees downhill makes you a believer in bringing max pressure to bear on brakes along with engine backpressure.
Interesting they call this brake part an "upgrade" instead of a recall. Can you imagine Ford or Chevy recalling brakes and saying its an "upgrade". |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 187
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 07:56 pm: |
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John, you are right on the parts change. I have not heard of this several week delay and with any luck, I will have some kits in my hand by this time next week. If I somehow come up with the kits before they make it out your way, I'd send one to you so this "upgrade" can finally get done.
Chuck, If you have handle bar steering, this kit can still be bought for your vehicle. Argo included more vehicles than I thought they would and I really don't know why that is the cut off point. The hand brake on the last Bigfoot I had actually worked fairly well. I don't have a price on the upgrade kit but I think it's about $40. |
Sam Robertson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sam
Post Number: 96
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 09:22 am: |
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Repairs. upgrades on a new vehicle because of
a factory brake issue, should be a Federal Recall
all at ARGO's expense, or a 100% refund to all the
owers who bought a machine that has such a defect.
ARGO SHOULD BE SUED FOR THIS
Sam Robertson |
will kober
Junior Member
Username: Akfj40
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 01:11 pm: |
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Its my understanding that the brake cable is being tighted up to much by either the owners or the dealer to get the wheels to be able to "skid" when coming to a stop. Its not doing anything than making your brake lever harder to pull, the amount of brake pressure is the same when the lever has less force to make it work. Alot of older ARGO owners (twin stick) expect the newer models to brake the same, but you have a ton more leverage with the twin stick braking system. Once Brandon gets the kit im sure we will know alot more. All of the ARGO's up here that we have sold have not had any complaints yet, but most of our units have been Avengers. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 188
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 01:30 pm: |
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Sam, I would like to know which Argo with handle bar steering you own and how much experience you have with this issue.
It's not like Argo sold vehicles with no brakes. Most vehicles with handle bar steering work really good. For some reason, this issue only came up when the Frontier was released. This model has an unusually tight hand brake and this makes it difficult to pull. Adjustments can be made to make it easier like I discussed in an earlier post. I've sold many Argos with handle bar steering and the number of complaints about the hand brake remains at zero. I think Argo included many more vehicles for this free upgrade than they really needed to. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 218
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 02:34 pm: |
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So Will Kober, you are an Argo dealer in Alaska or work for an Argo dealership in Alaska! Why didn't you tell us (in you ID or profile) all this up front? Everyone who posts on this forum has a responsibility to let others know what their agenda is. As situations change, view points might also change, but when we as readers know where the writer is coming from (owner, dealer, etc.) we can judge the post appropriately. You accused me in another thread of calling as fact what you consider opinion. Had I known then that you were connected to an Argo dealership, it would have made your comment more understandable as all you have to do is compare specs to understand where my comments come from.
I don't mean to hi-jack this thread as I didn't mean to hi-jack the other thread, but when comments are made or information comes to light, the place to comment or refute is right then (or right now as I am doing) in the tread where the information is. |
will kober
Junior Member
Username: Akfj40
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 03:37 pm: |
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Nope not a owner just work there as a mech. on my time off.
I have had experience with max's my nieghbor has one its cool, i've made my comparison, i like my Argo.
As far as my agenda goes i just want have fun and talk with others who are interested in the same thing haveing fun with whatever it is we drive.
My intentions were not to offend or make anybody mad, but if you would like Fred feel free to e-mail me so we quit hi-jacking. |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 252
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 08:20 pm: |
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Hey Will Kober. My fellow Canadian Steve Young gave a glowing report about his new Avenger and his Argo dealer(Don Sills Argo). I agree with every word he said. Then Stevie got carried away a little and said that some other amphibious manufacturers kept 1970s styling and only put in "bigger engines and hoods to cover them".
That is not fair or true. R.I. have in the last few years gone to Splined axles,then splined axles with snap ring retainers to eliminate the set screws, disc parking brakes,one piece twin sprockets,"O"-ring chain and the list goes on. When Fred S. challehged Steve's comment you accused Fred of being a 12 year old. you added that his facts were only opinions, you even accused Fred of bashing other machines. Now you say that your intentions were not to offend anybody! or make them mad. I hope that Fred continues to repy to you here--not by e-mail. nobody is hijacking any thread by setting the record straight. W. Philip Cox |
will kober
Junior Member
Username: Akfj40
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:35 pm: |
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The way I read it, and I may have read it wrong was that Steve had a problem and was looking to get it fixed and Fred came in saying how much better RI's products are. To me it seemed a bit childish kinda like my comment. You can be a dealer and tell me how good your stuff is and all that but it sounded to " opinionated".
"you even accused Fred of bashing other machines."
if im not mistaken he said RI's products were "superior" and Argo's were always playing "catch up" hows that make me a accuser?
keep in mind i have not said anything bad about your MAX's
your missing my point of that post- wheres the proof? you dont need to prove it to me i dont care.
my second point was that it gets old reading boards were there is a bunch of differnt makes and models and its always ford vs chevy, honda vs polaris blah, blah blah, who cares? im making the payment. and i just found this board and was thinking great not another one i finally find someting dedicated to amphibs and ther same b.s. is going on.
I hope that Fred continues to repy to you here--not by e-mail. nobody is hijacking any thread by setting the record straight. W. Philip Cox
sorry Phil, its not your thread. you want to ask me more questions and piss off the others who are interested in the topic feel free but lets start another thread out of respect for John.
but so we dont drag this on what is it exactly that you want? |
Josh
New member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 01:06 am: |
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The problem with the world is stupid people.
I'm not advocating capital punishment for stupid people.
I'm just suggesting we remove all the warning labels
and let the problem solve itself. |
Derek Hubbard
Member
Username: Justmax
Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 11:08 am: |
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In the WORDS of Mr. Rodney King Himself
>>>>>Can't We all Just Get Along<<<<< |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 196
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 07:08 pm: |
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I would add fuel to the fire, however just had a great 3 day ride with friends of all make machines, and have no angst or energy.. left it all on the trail! We need a little less talk and a lot more Action! Remind me to practice what I preach. |
STEVE Y.
Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 08:34 am: |
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PHILIP W. COX- It's STEVIE here just to let you know I was looking forward to coming to the ride your club organized in late fall but the weather and wind was horrible as you can atest, and I would be driving right into it all the way there hauling my ARGO on an open trailer.I really wanted to check out your MAX IV in the flesh ;there is none around here and no dealers to my knowledge all I have seen is the specs on the sales flyers. I hope to make it to your next ride if you have one, but I heard a rumor you may be selling your machine for a north of the border make?
WHOEVER-In regards to my post on the other thread, I didn't name any particular company or machine but, particular machine dealers and owners lashed out at my post, Wonder why???
ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE DISCUSSIONS;...At least thats what my wife tells me. |
Josh
Junior Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 09:56 am: |
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I agree with your old post to an extent. If you look at all of the AATVs they all look a whole lot like the older ones. I haven't seen a company come out with a totally new design that includes independent suspension, or anything that requires a lot less maintenance. I myself think the idea of individual hydraulic motors for each wheel is a good idea, and there is a company that does that. I can't wait for the day Yamaha enters the AATV market. The other manufactures would have a bunch of designing to do to keep up! As far as people bashing you, everyone has their own opinion. As far as dealers, it's there job to try to sell you their product even if it is junk. Their house, car, and lives depend on it. If you have an AATV you are supposed to be one of the good guys! Just ride it wide open, and hang on! |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 81
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 11:11 am: |
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My mechanic says the old Argo brake arrangement had each lever stick pulling back in a straight line to each 3 wheel side. Under the new arrangement the brake one lever(the single cable) is now obviously pushing both sides at once, inherently more leverage required than the existing handbrake can handle. He thinks it will take BOTH a longer handle grip for more leverage at the grip end as well as Argo's new pulley arrangement to obtain anything close to the old two lever arrangement. Well, new handgrip goes on tomorrow. As I say, I will take picts, try to get again soon for a brake report.
In the meantime wouldn't you know I was forced out on a ranch on Sat. The terrain was supposed to be fairly rolling but then we came to this one 40 degree plus downhill, only may 100' but I made my passenger get out and walk(slide) down anyway. Half way down I was bringing all the pressure to bear possible on the handgrip as well as engine brake back pressure. I made it fine but it was again obvious that I could not have held that grip much longer.
On the plus side, it was a roundtrip affair and coming back up that steep slope was a piece of cake, nothing like the all out max rpm run it would have taken with the Van II. Also, I was forced to cross some 2 to 3 foot washouts that I would not have attempted in the Van II, but Frontier's approach angle made it easy work with no hint of ever needing a winch.
Another thing I do for the business that might be interesting to some of you out there is that I map most of what I do with a GPS, just velcro it onto the Argo. Have a setup that has the topo map right on the screen with property boundaries and the GPS velcro'd right onto the flat place of the steering so all I need do is look down to see where I am. Not only is there no way I can get lost but I can backtrack even where my track has disappeared behind me and map it when I come home. I will attach Sat's map. That is exactly what I see on the screen all but I only see about 30% of the map at one time on screen and it is clearer. If anybody interested in this equip setup I will add this to thread down the line. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 189
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 06:26 pm: |
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My brake kits should be here on Friday. I can't wait to install and see if this really fixes the Frontier brake problem.
Also, a few days ago I had a local customer bring in his Avenger EFI for service. I told him there is a free brake upgrade available soon to make the lever easier to pull, and I could install it the next time he came in. He said the brake lever worked fine and he didn't care/wasn't interested in the new upgrade. That confirms that this brake problem really only concerns the Frontier. |
Chuck McGhee
Advanced Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 08:54 am: |
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John, I also run a gps on my argo. I have a handle bar mount that i orgianlly bought for my bike, but it would great on the argo. The GPS makes a nice tripometer. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 82
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 11:11 am: |
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For anybody interested, you can go to microsofts Terraserver site and download topo's anywhere in US onto many GPS's(I use the Ipaq along with teletype and a blue tooth antenna). I never lose my signal even in deep tree cover. While the forests here are probably not as dense as East coast, none the less once in awhile you can kind of lose your way out there. With the Frontier's 12 volt outlet, I no longer have to worry about battery running down on GPS.
Well, anyway, today is brake handle day. I take some pictures. |
Brian in FABULOUS Utah
Member
Username: Brianprovo
Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 12:50 pm: |
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Anyone notice the 29HP turbo desiel Avenger listed on Ebay? |
Brian in FABULOUS Utah
Member
Username: Brianprovo
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 01:05 pm: |
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I thought that the engine had be replaced so I asked the seller about it and this is his reply:
It is a factory installed Turbo Diesel. It was bought for calving at a elevation of 11,200 feet. We first tested a gas engine, but it was vapor locking, so instead we ordered a diesel vehicle through the factory. This was used by the grandkids, but they moved away. It has a steering wheel and 8 xtra tires and wheels. It can be used through water and snow. It has 70 hours.
Thanks for asking. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 01:16 pm: |
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Well, new handbrake lever installed, will try it out today. Still a bit of stiff pull except there's a ton more leverage to pull the brakes tighter. Definitely will add ODG's kit as well for the cable replacement. Will report later. |
Chuck McGhee
Advanced Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 103
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 02:16 pm: |
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Brian, ODG makes a Centaur, which are diesel and had a steering wheel.
http://centaur8x8.ca/products/product.asp |
Chuck McGhee
Advanced Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 02:20 pm: |
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I should have looked at ebay first. interesting Avenger. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 191
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 04:14 pm: |
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Wow that is one awesome Avenger. They must have paid huge money for that thing. I didn't know the factory would custom build something like that. It seems more likely that they bought the 26hp Kohler Avenger, found it didn't work way up high, and had someone install that engine for them. Even their tracks are custom and the steering wheel would be an easy change. I guess we'll take their word for it. Item #250072376340 for anyone curious.
Back on track- I just installed the Frontier hand brake upgrade. I haven't had a chance to test drive yet since it's raining and there is a big ice storm coming. The lever is now quite easy to pull and it seems to be just what we needed. I want to test it going down hill and see what it takes to lock the tires before I give my full opinion on the upgrade.
For anyone who wants the kit on a vehicle that is not covered for the free upgrade, the cost is $47.28. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 84
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 07:39 pm: |
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No more brake issue! The replacement handgrip courtesy Honda works. I like the longer handle grip also, biggers, feels more secure, the parking brake lock first rate & easy. So today, overloaded with two big passengers, took on some fairly steep downhills. Essentially a bit overloaded, I would say those downhills were maybe 30 degrees but the equivalent of 40 degrees because of extra weight. I never had a problem, could bring twice the pressure to bear on the brakes. On a long 20 degree downhill, I tried shifting to high gear and just stopping with brake, something I never do. Again no problem.
I will add ODG cable when I get it which I am thinking will ease the strain a bit on the cable instead of it being just a straight pull as it is now. But bottom line is that my confidence has risen greatly. The downhill I took on in places today was muddy, rocks, small slides, you know, nasty stuff. I stopped thinking about the brakes after awhile, something I had not been able to do up to this point. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 200
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 06:07 pm: |
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I am happy to report the new hand brake kit works great and exceeds my expectations. I can now give it a little sqeeze and slow the vehicle on any hill or just lock up the tires instantly. Braking is as easy and effective as the old two stick vehicles, something I did not expect. John you will probably want your original hand brake back on once your kit is installed. With any more leverage you'll endo the machine with one finger. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 07:46 pm: |
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Miss Max: I wondered about having too much leverage. The one thing wrong with the sticks on the Van II was that you can bring too much leverage to bear and brake too hard downhill which is an issue if you have forgotten to keep the engine backpressure high enough. That's exactly how you would flip it forward. But I noticed that the Frontier is considerably heavier than the Van II and it feels like even if you locked up the brakes too hard the weight would keep you from flipping unless it was loaded improperly.
well, I do have my old handbrake just in case and I try to make it a point to nudge into these situations carefully. I'll let you know if you are correct on the old handle being more than enough.
I have kept my old hand brake just in case, though one thing I already like about the new one is that the parking brake is a lot easier to engage. |
John Prince
Intermediate Member
Username: Jp400
Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 08:35 pm: |
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Missouri Max: okay, new cable on today. We decided to leave the Honda handle replacement on as it is a nicer feeling grip for the hand and the parking brake is more secure. We discussed the possibility of downhill brake grabbing but mechanic pretty sure it would be a very smooth stop. One thing clearly different about the Frontier over the Van II is weight. The Van II would definitely grab and flip but I think the weight of the Frontier will be more stable.
Anyway, there's a particularly nasty 1/2 mile 40 to 45% climb with only a very few pullouts that I have been avoiding like the plague. Its a balls out run up and down, barely made it in the Van II. I guess its time to take off the wraps and see what the Frontier can really do. |
Mike Maroni
Advanced Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 09:10 pm: |
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good luck John. take some pictures |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 36
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 02:00 am: |
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I Got Frontier Questions
I am impressed with the design on this machine and read all the post. I like the Avenger too. The brake issue doesn’t concern me what I want to know is
1. Do you see superior unstoppable performance in muck hills etc.
2. Do you love the 24 inch tire and does it ride smoother then anything
3. Does the new tire tear up the ground and things like grass
4. Have you pounded the machine at high speed and see a superior tire difference etc
If I had my way there would be a 26x12 Chevrons all rubber no nylon on a 5 inch double beaded rim with locking screws. The rim would have a molded rubber ring so a tire could be glued rubber to rubber and only removed with a solvent. Anybody can email me direct at rob@onmars.net and or at the moderator for the monster 6x6 yahoo group. All bitchen will be kept confidential etc LOL! And no you cant get a virus sending me a email like some idiot posted on the net. That’s impossible. I’m looking at outfitting everything I got with the best tire I can get. I am not a aggressive tread raw hide fan and have very wet grass here. Floatation tires perform excellent. Nylon cheapens a tire in my opinion. The old 70s Chevrons cannot be the tire out there today cause they rode like balloons, soft and smooth minimal property damage. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 226
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:44 am: |
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I watched a frontier for two days last Fall in sloppy, hilly land.
1 nothing is unstoppable, I thought it better than rawhides because the tread didn't clog as easily as the mud tire tread run backwards.
2 Yes
3 bald runamuks will tear up the yard..
4 It was driven hard through muddy ruts, etc and the tires stayed on the argo wheels, no punctures.
It's a great swimmer, rides great, lightweight wheel and tire, and is a perfect fit for a couple vehicles in particular. I wish it was wider. If it was a 13.5" width I'd already have them, mounted on k rims. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 213
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 05:10 pm: |
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The Frontier is still new enough to not really know everything about its performance in all conditions. So far its performance is better than any other 6x6 in every type of terrain. Will it have a disadvange in some type of terrain? Maybe, but it doesn't look like it.
I have a Frontier than I've been using as a demo. Oh who am I kidding, I've just been putting it through its paces. Hill climbing is awesome even in slippery mud or snow. The tires give better traction than Rawhides and the Frontier's accelleration and wheel spin exceeds any other new 6x6. The soft tires and extended wheel base give a great ride and the bench seat is thicker than previous 6x6s. The tires swim great and the vehicle floats more level than any other Argo. Best of all it has the full skid plate, front AND rear axle bearing extentions, and axle seals for a 100% water tight body. I could go on and on... |
STEVE Y.
Intermediate Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 06:23 pm: |
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PLEASE GO ON BRANDON-I'm sure everybody is reading this post and are envious of these redesigned amazingly capable smooth riding quiet next millenium amphibious machines!!! |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 40
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 12:25 pm: |
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Well you know what I mean unstoppable Roger. Its just what we strive for and dream of. I got to believe a Frontier with tracks has got to be pretty much there though. I believe the narrow tire widths coming out these days are to do with pounds per square inch of ground pressure. My brother builds hopped lifted golf carts and limited to rear wheeler drive has told me to wide of tire spins worse and its like there’s no weight on it. He said for him a 10 inch wide tire grabs the best. The wide tires may be better for a mosh pit of mud though.
We drove Scramblers and Gotcha’s here where I live in early 70s and Gotchas had Chevrons not floatation’s but I believe they were all rubber no nylon and they rode good and we never knocked one off a rim. I believe good soft rubber can contribute to a good rim lock seal. Chevrons today are hi nylon and not as good in snow and guys have told me they are a rough ride compared to Runamuc which are probably all rubber. I don’t see the need of a rawhide 3 tread on a soft tire as the tires conform to terrain and grab. I’d like to see a Avenger running a frontier tire to see how soft of ride could be had. Even the 26 Rawhide 3 movies are not showing much tire flex on the Avenger. The Frontier movies shows the tire conforming itself pulling the machine over logs etc.
Scramblers run a 58 inch wheelbase and the floatation tires make them ride like a Cadillac. They were a lighter machine. There is no body Jolt its more like riding a hopity hop LOL You can drive them any speed down hill though from slow to 35 MPH and handling is good. You can also drive them across the side of a hill as the center of gravity is very low. That tells me design can be everything. However they were designed in 1967 The frontier shows me Argo has put some thought into new design. All the six wheelers seemed to be based off a 50 or 58 inch wheelbase. The 58 provide ride comfort but were always limited by diameter of the tire making them less completive with the same tire on a 50 inch wheel base. Max hasn’t changed allot other then heavy duty improvements etc be there initial design for a 50 inch wheelbase machine was probably already better then many others.
We get torrential rains in PA in Spring and Fall Its like slimy like somebody sprayed WD 40 on the ground LOL! I like a degree of tire spin as it makes machines turn easy and more fun etc. The rawhide type tires seem like they destroy a lawn in less passes.
So far the reports on the New Frontier prove to be as good as its video. I find everything about the machine pretty impressive. I’d like to see a special option fuel injected Version. I like the overall everything of the machine but would like to see some seat buckets or a moldered foam seat to give some contour. Perhaps a aftermarket piece. One things for sure if it rides good, climbs out of wet hills and muck good and is built tuf and indestructible it’s a real competitor at any speed. And Thanks Brandon, your like the GM proving grounds of Six Wheeling. My gotcha picture there was from when I was about 12 (I’m the one with the goofy looking hat LOL!)
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Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 473
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 02:02 pm: |
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Rob do you think your memory of the ride quality from back then could have something to do with your weight and overall health?
I know the old Willys jeep I bought when I was 15 seemed to ride a lot better then than it does now. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 227
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 02:47 pm: |
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In Ray Kohl's thread you talked about riding land in PA. I'm in Oklahoma but make it to Indiana for rides now and then. I know guys in Cleveland, central PA, and western NY state(John Schwab) that might like to see the place.
Greg Orr, whose family is argo dealer, put frontier tires on an Avenger. He was very happy with them, good ride, cut a 100+ lbs off the vehicle, Fast in the water! |
Bud
Intermediate Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 87
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 04:34 pm: |
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Will the Frontier tires fit on a stock Max II K-rim? |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 214
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 04:45 pm: |
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Frontier tires will go on a k-rim but the fit might not be as good. A k-rim is 8x8" and the Argo rim is 8x7". That means the k-rim is one inch wider so it'll pull the tire bead out farther from the center of the tire. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 228
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 05:57 pm: |
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Jon Hoath is buying a frontier soon, and John Schwab plans on borrowing the tires/wheels for a test drive on his maxII. I figured Brandon would've done that already out of curiosity.. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 41
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 01:08 am: |
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Jerry LOL! Ya wouldn’t it be nice to be 12 again. No actually I have a photographic memory and remember every detail of this farm etc pretty good and still do test. Heres all my info on what I know on tires and wheelbase etc. I have 9 Scramblers some running some needing restored that were going to be camper rentals. I ran trailbosses till a few years ago when some guys just had to have my machine, but want another and I have 2 Attex one is a thundercheif and one with harder tires. And I have a Max and Big Max restoration projects.
Gotchas were around 450 lbs Scramblers didn’t seem much heavier. Most t-20 machines are about 600 or more lbs except Attex seems pretty light. The first ride I had in a six wheeler was in the back of a Scrambler with my buddy and the driver was 250 lbs I couldn’t believe the stability of the machine as we went down a super steep loose dirt hills and turned in the middle of it and came back up an around without flipping over. The gotchas we smashed into 2 foot boulders in the stream. Regardless of weight we hit them at 15-20 MPH and just launched the thing and whacked the fiberglass body pretty hard. No Damage
I had some people ride the Attex with mud busters ( a harder tire) and the ground was part froze and they were like man is that a rough ride. Taking the Same ride in a scrambler they were like what the heck that thing rides like a Cadillac. I explained it’s the tires and the longer wheelbase gives stability and ride difference. An Attex can balance front heavy with a full tank of gas and 2 heavy riders. A Scrambler is balanced tail heavy and jumps well and climbs well. They have design flaws in heavy mud and are not competitive that way. People wanted to wait and have me build them a restored Scrambler. Even though it is a limited machine or questionable reliability when they get old and its slower etc it is a fun machine and I’d feel safe renting a slow one.
In my opinion all six wheelers were designed for the floatation tires as the tire was the suspension. Rawhide to me is a tractor tire with farm utility usage in mind. I see all the guys worry about solid axles etc and I say its cause you pounding the machine with those crappy hard tires. We had a Scrambler fall off a trailer at 60 mph about 10 years ago and it bounced and rolled into the ditch and had no damage. Guys with attexes have told me they don’t like the chevron ride that is to hard and I believe its to do with balance and the short 50 inch wheelbase and the high nylon in the tire. The Attexes are one of the lightest fastest 50 inch wheelbase machines so its not the weight pounding you with rough tires. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 01:10 am: |
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Don Kinyon and others around old racing have told me ya know there’s something about that 58 inch wheelbase and he referred to competition racing Yellow Scramblers that I believe were both driven by Marc Stobinski and Bud Fisher of the Ashtabula Ohio race track. When you watch Richard Clarks tape of Marc racing you notice some high speed stability and in the beginning of his racing career his 7000 RPM single cylinder Sachs transplant was reeking havoc till Attex brought in their big guns horsepower engines and setups. The tapes pretty cool actually. I know everything about the Scrambler company and have the last piece of it. The Japanese hurt Scrambler bad and there was also a murder. They were more of a fun machine not a heavy duty machine like Argo or hi performance like Attex. Guys made modifications to race but compared to what they were up against they were out engineered with heavier duty parts etc.
Some of the Performance guys seem to miss conceive me not showing up to events to compete against their stuff. The farm here demands all attention in the summer. Things grow fast Farming goes fast, equipment breaks etc. I got about 200 apple trees I’m resurrecting etc So I do one or the other farm or six wheel.
I’m looking as six wheelers as a business, do the math of 10 rentals and 10 campsites every weekend and mud golf and adventures during the week. Driving around meeting people making sure everyone’s having fun it could be the ultimate business with allot of money in it. And no Chinese company can destroy it. And Winter is shop time. Id like to see all the machines move forward and the sport grow. The new Frontier brings a fresh appeal etc. There things I’d also like to see on a Max 2 that I’ll get into in a magazine article soon.
I have a Chevron tire here and it seems hard and has nylon but its new. The old scrambler with factory rims and Chevrons seem soft I believe their pure rubber no nylon They had to change the quantity of the tire with nylon to make it cost effective. Carlisle was interested in working with me on a batch of all soft rubber Chevrons I just never followed through. I still may, the last few years have been hard on me and I was almost killed from a rare high blood calcium condition. Now after 12 years of medial care botch ups I have to go through another operation soon as I ended up with a worse condition from people obstructing and tampering with medical services etc. So the future of funds and things are a little uncertain.
I will surly be interested in Johns test of the new tire on a max but to compare it to a frontier on a max it should really be a max 4 with the longer wheelbase. I just checked ya John Schwab is about 90 miles from me and I been to the fair up their by him so maybe we’ll get together for some testing. Maybe I’ll talk to Greg Orr this week. The Avenger just impresses me too. You look at that thing and just say man is there some potential there and it looks cool etc. I like the idea of a big machine for sportsman use and giving rides and tours. I’m still wondering if there needs to be a 10 wheeler LOL! Thanks everybody. |
Bud
Intermediate Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 05:20 pm: |
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I was toying with the idea of buying a set of Frontier tires when the Rawhide IIIs on my Max get a bit more worn, but did not want to spring for a set of wheels at the same time. I look forward to hearing what Mr. Schwab has to say about the performance of the Frontier tires/wheels on his Max. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 229
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 07:20 pm: |
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Schwab's computer and e mail has been contrary lately, he views route 6x6 on another remote computer but cannot post from it. I talk to him on the phone every couple of weeks.. if he does the tires I'll post what he thinks. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 215
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 09:37 pm: |
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The tires will make a big differece. The Max II won't have all the features as the Frontier but the tires alone are a good start.
More snow fell here in mid MO. Only about 6" on the ground but drifts up to 20" in some places. Once again it was time for the Frontier to show its stuff. A friend and his girlfriend came over and we all rode in the front of the Frontier. Sure we're not very big people but that wide seat was comfortable for three people. Now is the test, over 450 pounds in the vehicle instead of just 150. I know how much these vehicles are affected by extra weight. Off we go flying through the drifts and spinning wild donuts on the frozen lake. Steering was still very easy even with all this weight in deep snow. I took the woods trail down a steep hill. Friend's girlfriend was scared but the Frontier was as sure footed as a mule. The trail looped around and pointed to another steep hill to get back out. I hammered that 23hp Briggs wide open and the Frontier came out of that valley with a rooster tail off all six. Excellent traction from the tires and plenty of power. It was a blast!
A true testiment to how much improved these vehicles really are: We both say this Frontier is the first time we have ever had FUN in an Argo. Performance, durability, reliability, ease of operation... THE BEST AMPHIBIOUS ATVS EVER ON THE MARKET. The Frontier and Avenger are the total package. |
Anonymous
Posted From: 66.194.57.198
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 10:17 pm: |
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I would like to know if anyone has taken the frontier out in deep powder snow,I mean over3 feet of fresh snow,not just snowmobile trails. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 43
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 12:34 am: |
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Excellent Report Brandon you lucky dog LOL! I plowed snow for 4 hrs today with a Case Industrial tractor and came in like a big chunk of ice. The Frontier is sure a winner and has even more possibilities for guys who hop things up etc. It looks to be a great all around package and heavy duty. The tire to me sounds like its just there and wound be worth saving money for on other machines. I see some advantages to rear engine machines but I see broad advantages we all like on front engine machines so think their day has come into play they cant be ignored. One of the things I see is it looks like improved ability to pull out of a pond and up a steep grade. That’s something regardless of speed etc that we all seem to want. anonymous 3 ft, tracks are a requirement I have watched argo at ski resorts etc and others with tracks have stated you won’t have a problem going anywhere. The New Engines and trans are said to show only minuet speed loss with tracks. I think Argo’s new models have made some serious break throughs. Its good to see new inovation |
Bud
Intermediate Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 90
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:22 am: |
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We played in the snow and on an ice covered pond also, and had a ball. We "drifted" around the pond with the wheels spinning, aka "Fast and the Furious", and could do a continuous loop of 360s until we got dizzy, so we would turn and spin the other way to clear our heads.  |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 47
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 06:55 am: |
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Now we Need Videos On U-tube or something. Be interesting to do some stop watch or second test of Rawhide verse Frontier tire take offs in snow etc. My moneys on the soft tire. |
Chris Chwaz
Junior Member
Username: Buffalomax
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 08:51 pm: |
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Has any one put the 18 wide tracks on do you need to put small tires on or do they go over the 24"s.(i have ask my argo dealer yet)When you make a turn in the frontier do you still have some power in the turn side or is it in neutral like the other machines.Thats were my old machine gets stuck in deep snow.As you can tell I am looking to buy the new frontier,maybe ,just maybe. |
Brandon_price
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 216
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 09:51 pm: |
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New Frontier Tire Info - ODG just put up a bulletin on tires. The Frontier can now be ordered with the Avenger's 25" Rawhide III tires or the basic Runamuk tire as a substitute for the 24" Frontier tire. I don't know why I person would want this since the Frontier tire seems to be the best AATV tire ever, but the option is there. Maybe the Frontier is just so awesome that it makes up for a sub-standard tire, and the Rawhide III will improve it even farther? Might have to give it a try. Tracks cannot be installed with the Rawhide III tire option.
Chris Chwaz - Yes the 18" rubber tracks go right over the Frontier's 24" tire, with the addition of wheel extentions. Steering power loss on the new Argo trans is about zero. The Frontier and Avenger perform nothing like the older models. |
Rob Sandera
Intermediate Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 64
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 02:45 am: |
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Thanks for letting us know about the bulletin Brandon. What I’d like to see is the frontier tire offered as a option on all models. Its possible they are having trouble getting enough tires so offered the substitutes. If the new frontier tires work good I think we should all let Argo know and what else we would like to see.
l know we like it and would like to see more like it. I for one would like to see a 26x 12 wide tire with possibly a small rim or a 26 inch soft rubber chevron. Companies had to play a huge part in tire production before as many had their names on Goodrich, Firestone and Uniroyal tires. Argo is a big enough company that maybe they would give us all what we need.
Even though guys complain about the money for tires etc its like this. It’s the one thing you can buy that over its lifetime is actually a cheap investment. And how many sets of the right tires do you think you would really buy in 20-30 years. So in my book any top quality tire that is giving you what you want is worth saving for and investing in. What I like the most is ride comfort. I think any tires out today have the traction but they all don’t have the soft ride comfort. Of course I’ve got back problems so maybe its just my opinion. |
Chris Chwaz
Junior Member
Username: Buffalomax
Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 08:20 pm: |
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Hey could one of you many argo dealer tell me what the new 2008 line is .On the argo web site the list a frontier in three sizes,and a frontier 8 wheeler. |
Brandon_price
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 232
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 10:41 pm: |
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For 2008 we have in the 6x6s:
Frontier 480 - 14hp Brings. Low cost entry level model.
Frontier 580 - 18hp Briggs.
Frontier 650 - 23hp Briggs. Same as current '07 model loaded with all the options (skid plate, front and rear axle bearing extensions, meters, etc.)
In the 8x8s:
Frontier 650 - 23hp Briggs. Front axle bearing extensions, skid plate and rear extensions optional. This is the replacement for the Response and it looks to be a great machine. Less money than an Avenger but every bit of the performance with just a few less horsepower.
Avenger 700 - 26hp Kohler liquid, same as current '07 model.
Avenger 750 - 31hp Kohler EFI liquid, same as current '07 model.
All 2008 vehicles will have a parking brake and neutral safety switch. The parking brake is a lever activated system similar to that found in some cars. Argos can now only be started in neutral, not in gear. |
Jeff bar
Member
Username: Argo8x8
Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 11:12 pm: |
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Brandon Are you the Argo dealer from St Louis? Can you post some photos of the new 8x8 Frontier, what colors do they come in, Sounds like a great machine Jeff |
Bryan Jaedike
New member
Username: Tigerguy
Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 02:34 pm: |
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Chris I am assuming the different models are really no more than a larger engine or longer in case of the 8x8 Bryan |
Bryan Jaedike
Junior Member
Username: Tigerguy
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 10:14 am: |
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Brandon I guess since no dealer answered back, I am correct the different models are nothing but a larger engine Bryan |
Jeff bar
Member
Username: Argo8x8
Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2007 - 08:44 pm: |
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Must be more than just a engine difference,unless argo is just giving to to us Hee Hee Jeff
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Brandon_price
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 233
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 02:13 pm: |
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Jeff, I am the Max and Argo dealer located about 80 miles west of St. Louis on I-70. Argo just sent me the 2008 brochure so I'll be posting the pictures and info on the Frontier 8x8 on my website soon. I don't have the vehicle yet but my distributor says it is an awesome machine. Plenty of speed and power just like the 6x6 model, but with the 8x8 cargo capacity and a retail price over $2000 less than the Avenger.
The 6x6 Frontier models with the 14hp and 18hp engines are exactly the same. These are fairly stripped down models to keep the price low. They have no meters, no skid plate, and no axle bearing extensions. The 23hp model, just like in 2007, is loaded with everything. It comes standard with the full skid plate, front and rear axle bearing extensions, and all meters and 12v power point. |
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