Route 6x6 Discussion Board: Max really that good in snow?

Route 6x6 Discussion Board My Favorite Machine: Talk about you favorite ATV and Why. Max really that good in snow?

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Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

I am thinking about upgrading my Max II 450 to something a little more powerful/better equipped for use in the snow. How well do Maxes really go in the snow? Compared to a snowmobile? I would only be driving in fields or logging roads that are open in the winter. Going fast isnt as important as not getting stuck. I am think about the Max II 25hp.

Thanks,
BC

Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hi Bill, my favorite Max II is the 18hp Briggs with 22" tires. I prefer the 21" tire for water travel or possible track usage, but the 22" is very aggressive and great in mud and snow. The 16hp is plenty of power but just won't get around as fast and easy as the 18hp when bogged by deep snow. I ran a 14hp for years (I won't recommend and do my best not to sell that model) and it was decent in snow. It's really fun in up to 8" of snow since it still moves quick and spins donuts. It will go in 12-14" of snow and any more depends on the type of snow. The Max II is not available with the 25hp engine, but you can get the 23hp. The Kohler is set up real nice with special cooling ducts. Very nice machine, but the $1000+ price increase over the 18hp and the lack of a backup recoil pull starter puts that model at the bottom of the sales list. I've had three new 18hp IIs to sell along with some 16hp IIs, but zero 23hp IIs.
I find the Max II to be the most fun and sporty 6x6. I do think the Max IV with 26" tires is the ultimate in off-road vehicles. Those big tires allow it to go where nothing else will. Not only that, but it will go through tough places easier than anything else. The 26" tires allow it to plow through deep mud and snow and provide an unbelievable water speed. I recommend at least the 25hp Kohler or if you really want to go all out, the 27hp liquid cooled Kawasaki is worth the cash. I find the 18hp slightly under powered for my taste but it is enough to pull the vehicle through anything even with four people. The 23hp Kohler is a good running engine, but for a bit more money you can get the 25hp engine with the big clutch. The 25hp and 27hp engines have a larger diameter drive clutch which allows for a higher top speed. Even if you don't use the top speed, that clutch with a big power plant is great for spinning those tires through deep mud and snow. There are times you need a big engine to spin through tough terrain at a higher speed than the smaller engine will allow. You do need to be careful with the big engines in other terrain, where they will allow you to spin yourself stuck real fast.
I think I could talk forever about Maxs, but I'll leave it at that until you have more questions.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, A max with tracks will go more places than a snowmobile if the snowmobile goes at the same speed as the Max. A max can mosey along and stay on top of the snow where a snowmobile will sink in.

But, spinning the tracks on a max in deep powder will get you bottomed out real quick so it is important to be aware of what the tracks are doing when going in deep powder. It takes some practice to learn how to turn and how to apply the throttle. If the snow has consistency, the max will go about anywhere whith out much concern.

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Thanks, I do like the Max II looks better than the Max IV. If I was going to buy a Max IV I think I would probably just buy a Bigfoot. I wont be doing any hardcore riding. Just looking to drive up and down snow covered roads. Fred thanks, how fast are they on the snow? I understand that depends on consistency but lets say on dry and wet? Brandon, thanks. Does the 23hp II come with a bigger clutch as well? I would also use the Max for dragging brush, plowing snow, pulling trailer and lots of other chores. Thats why I was thinking the most powerful. My 14 horse runs out of steam pulling heavy loads.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, if you are going to compare machines, you need to do it with the Max II to the Big foot and the Max IV to the New Argo Avenger. Anything else is comparing apples to oranges (both OK, but nothing alike). And if you want more power, your only choice is to go with Recreatives's machines (aside from the less HP to the ground as a result of transmission differences RI offers larger engine choices).

I'm fairly sure that the clutch is the same size on all Max IIs (need to get to 25 HP before the diameter increases). On machines with tracks mounted, you will have about a 23 MPH top speed on the 18 or 23 HP Max II and, about 16 MPH with the 18 HP Briggs Max IV and about 26 MPH with the 25 or 27 HP Max IV. You will slow down a little in deep powder, but not much - just can't climb as steep of an incline in deep powder because you don't have the traction (and not much momentum). My guess is an Argo will have a top speed of about 16 MPH with tracks mounted - the Avenger might give you 22 MPH.

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred, seems to me like the Argo Bigfoot is closer to the Max IV than the Avenger. Plus I think the Avenger is alot more expensive isnt it? Now I understand the pros and cons of each but I just really do not like the looks of the Max IV. I do prefer the Max II although I havent driven an Argo. Maybe Ill go up to Sacramento one of these days to check one out. Whats the deal with the high speed clutch that I read about from time to time? I dont want to go 50 but a little faster might be nice. Then again maybe I should just drive a more powerful Max :-). But the bottom line is really I dont want to get stuck so the best snow machine is best for me.

BC

Roger Smith ( - 67.234.27.34)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

I wouldn't depend on Fred for argo specs, as his personal experience with them is non existent. I have an argo 8, also think the later model max's are great machines.

Roger Smith ( - 67.234.27.34)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

I wouldn't depend on Fred for argo specs, as his personal experience with them is non existent. I have an argo 8, also think the later model max's are great machines.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, I guess it all depends on what it is that you are comparing. The six wheeled Argos are two people machines (with 140 pounds maximum in the rear compartment - 700 pounds total payload). The Max II is a two people machine with 600 payload. The eight wheeled Argos are four person machines with 1000 pound payload while the max IV is a four person machine with a 1000 payload.

The argo vanguard weighs 765 lbs. and has less tire contact area than a max II so is not comparable. The big foot weighs 910 lbs. and has more tire contact area than a max II giving it almost equivalent PSI on the ground as a Max II with 22" tires (both having the same tread pattern) and close to equal engine performance. The conquest six weighs 990 pounds using the same tires as the Big foot so it puts it out of contention for comparable to a Max II. The heaviest Max II weighs about 700 pounds giving all Max IIs better Horsepower to weight to tire contact areas ratios than any Argo six.

The Max IV with 26" tires has about the same tire contact area as the Big foot, but weighs less and has the same or more horse power; so the Big Foot does not compare at all to the Max IV (it looses in all categories by a significant margin), but I guess to some it does look better and that really is what is important in a skid steer (Very Big Grin). The eight wheeled argos have almost enough tire contact area to be comparable to a Max IV, but they all outweigh the Max IV by a considerable amount, therefore are not comparable (they too, all loose in all categories except maybe, they too, look better).

The story is the same when it comes to tracked machines (I will except out the Avenger, because I think it is a comparable performing machine to a max even though you can buy two max for the price of one avenger). The Max IV (25 or 27 HP) with 26" tires (or tracks) is in a class by itself when it comes to performance. If we ever get an 18" or wider track, it will be the ultimate snow machine.

I will close with any snow machine will get stuck in tough conditions if it isn't driven with skill and care.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, I forgot to address the high speed clutch. The drive pulley springs can be changed giving more speed. At one time RI had a set of springs that could be installed to give five or so more MPH. It is my understanding that those springs are used in all max drive pulleys since about 1996 or 1997. I'm not personally familiar with the process of changing springs (snowmobile mechanics are masters at this) as I have never had a torque converter apart or worked on one, but as the speed goes up, the torque comes down so you have to choose speed or power. The 2 cycle engine powered skid steers have lots of speed, but to get up a hill, you have to go at it full throttle (not always possible or wise in tough terrain)like a quad does.

If you want speed in a skid steer, you have to go to and old two cycle and want to climb only smooth hills. In modern machines, the fastest machines are the max IV 900T and the Max IV 950T.

I might add that Roger is right that I have no personal experience with Argos (have never even ridden in one as they are about as scarce in Montana as are smart environmentalists), but one does not have to put his hand in the fire to know that it is hot. All one has to do is read the factory issued specs; it is all there except accurate PSI on the ground numbers (I still don't understand how all the Argo machines have the same PSI on the ground numbers even though the machines have different weights and different tires (or different tracks).

David Keeso (Argomag)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred, actually, the 6x6 argos can easily hold 4 people, although the back is a little cramped on long trips, and the argo 8x8 can hold 6 people easily, i've had 8 in mine (2 were little kids) and it worked just fine. However, in water the 6x6 are 2 seaters, argo's 4 people

Roger Smith ( - 67.234.27.241)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

What size tires does the max4 use with tracks.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Roger, the Max IV (and all Max) use the 21" rawhide with tracks.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

David, My max IV will easily hold six or even eight people (I'll bet I can pile ten people in having some on others laps). I've had six sit in and on a Max II. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean the machine is made for it. I have also had more than 1000 pounds in a Max IV in the water but that does not mean that everyone should do it (I've hauled three ton of hay on a 3/4 ton pickup, too).

If you had tried to go through a mud hole or been in powder snow, you would know real quick that you had more weight on your machine than it could perform with. That is why loaded PSI on the ground numnbers are so important - it doesn't matter how much space you have for cargo or people if the machine weighs too much to go. If you are just puttering around on roads and hard stuff, you might as well use a car or a pickup!

Roger Smith ( - 67.234.27.193)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

"If we ever get an 18" or wider track, it will be the ultimate snow machine."

Your prayers have been answered, Fred! 18" rubber tracks on a 79" wheelbase, on 25.5" dia. tires. The Argo Avenger's specs.
------

Here's a link that someone else posted, about aftermarket 20" wide rubber tracks. Its an argo dealer's site, looks like he's having them made by a Canadian company. The tire keepers look suspect (sharp and pointy) but the wide track itself looks promising. Might be adaptable for the Max.

http://www.argorsbolduc.com/items.html

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

How wide are the Max tracks? By snow covered roads I mean behind the gates that are so common in NW Montana. You can only go back there in the winter. I consider the Max II basically a one person machine because its so dang hard to run with two scrunched in there. Not saying you cant but its tight and not comfortable. One person its really nice. Does the Argo have more room in the seat? Maybe Ill just have to get over the looks of the IV.

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Roger, thats a nice picture of those Argos in the snow. Thats the kind of stuff that I want to be able to do. Fred, do you have any good snow pics?

Thanks,
BC

ArgoLaurier

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

In reference to the tracks that Mr. Bolduc is sell, if you speak with him he has a lot of good stories to tell about performance. The ODG had a look at his tracks and that is why they now sell the rubber tracks for the Avenger. I have been to his dealer ship and he has a real good test area in the mountain behind this shop. You will no long get stuck in snow with his tracks. They will run you about $2900 Cdn or about $2000 US
http://www.argorsbolduc.com/items.html

David Keeso (Argomag)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred, not to start anything here but having lots of people in the ARGO has not yet stopped me from getting through rough terrain. Last month I had to take 6 people in the argo(myself included in that 6) through a flooded swamp to get to the back of the property to show the area, the main road was closed off (road was blasted out to remove all the rock underneath to make way for a new road that was going in) this trail was the only other way in and the people I took up had to see the property then as they were returning to Calgary. I had doubts about getting through the swamp as I had never been through there or had any idea of what was in the swamp. The argo went through easily with all of us in the machine and even with an 18 hp engine and bald tires, I never had a problem getting through. On the way back out to the open part of the road where the car was, we decided to play around a bit as the people were amazed with the ARGO and wanted to see what else it could do, so we did some steep climbing, log crossing, swimming, and more mud. The only time I had a problem here was when I accidently let off the throttle going up a muddy bank and the argo started to slip a bit but with a bit of fast and careful thought, I got it up all the way before anyone realized that we could have ended up backing all the way down the bank and try again. These machines were ment to carry large loads while still able to traverse these various terrain. so yes I have gone over rough, sticky, wet, mucky, you name it and with lots of people in the machine on many different occasions.
I also tested the ARGO out a couple years ago in water with 6 people - in very very shallow water I might add but enough so that the wheeles weren't touching the bottom and their was about a foot of clearance from the bottom of the front wheeles to the silty bottom, and while I thought we would tip several times, it just bounced back and kept going.

liflod (Liflod)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Take a look at Richard Clarks atv parts site and check the gallery section. You will find a Max II with super tracks. I think that is the machine you want to see. Richard could take your current machine and turn it into one heck of a mini snow cat !!!!
http://members.aye.net/%7Erclark/gallery.html

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Well whatever the brand these things are pretty cool. Fred, I was checking out your website and pics. I saw the Max IV price with tracks at nearly what the Avenger is. Also checked out your for sale pics. Do you have all of those still? I guess they really are not much cheaper if at all.

I am not trying to start a debate about which is best. I recognize the advantages of all. I am just interested in snow performance :-) Since I cant try before I buy you guys are my

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Roger, I hope RI starts to use the 18" wide belt as the Avenger is still too heavy (I think) to get good PSI on the ground numbers even with the 18" wide track. I'm going to do the math. I know with 18" wide tracks on a max IV that it would be great in the snow.

Bill, The Max tracks are 15" wide. No, I don't have any good snow pictures (there are a few on my yahoo pictures link at the bottom of my pictures page from my web site, but nothing great.

David, You won't start anything with me. That's why we love our skid steers, they do such great things. I probably expect too much from a machine because I get stuck (or can't go forward) often and I am usually by myself. I've got a 1995 Buffalo that would get stuck at the drop of a hat and it weighs about as much as a Big Foot (its about 150 pounds heavier than my Max IV) and has 25" rawhide IIIs. I don't have the same piece of property with the terrible mud, but I have tested Max IIs, Max IVs and the Buffalo in conditions that most people wouldn't consider (I've even had to get out and push more than once on a sales demonstration (might add, I have made the sale every time that happened).

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Liflod, That is the old original track system. It used a "sort of" boggie wheel front and rear to tension the track. It was very heavy and not real good (had lots of wheel slip) It wasn't hard on axles or bearings though as all pressure was on the pipe frame front & rear. That is a 15" wide solid rubber belt, very similar to the current track.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, I have everything except the one with the snowplow (need to update that).

Yes, fully equipped machines are expensive, but the avenger, the basic machine without any accessories is about as much as a fully set up (with tracks) Max. I was being a little facetious when I said you could buy two Max for the price of one Avenger (of course we don't know what the track package costs or how much a cab, windshield, rollcage, etc. costs). And don't forget that a Max IV with tracks loaded has about the same PSI on the ground as an unloaded Avenger (that means the Max IV will go in powder better).

Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

The 18" track is nice for the larger Avenger, but I think it is unlikely the Max will ever go over 15". It's good to see Argo finally got a rubber track. When I was at the Max factory in July, they had a new test track on a 27hp IV. It was the same width but had more aggressive tread like a snowmobile would have. They said it has worked real well so far. I don't think it is necessary to go wider as that only causes excessive drive train wear. The only way to make any tracked amphib better in snow is to make it faster, and that is only needed for hills.
I have an Argo price list here that is dated 4-7.-04. It already has the rubber track kit listed for the Avenger even though Argo just came out with it..? The list price is $3396. The Avenger itself retails for $14,500 here in Missouri and weighs 1205 by itself according to the Argo brochure. I know Fred is busy running PSI numbers now.
I have a good deal of experience with the Argo and do my best not to bash them excessively (haha). I have considered selling them and wouldn't do that if I didn't feel it was a good product. It is a quality machine that does the 6x6 world proud and I think it is best suited for utility use only. If you over look the differential tranny featuring three wheel drive, I still find them to be under powered.
Comparing the Bigfoot 18hp to the Max II 18hp:
The Bigfoot has 25" tires and the II has 22" tires, yet they have the same ground clearance. The Bigfoot weighs more and has an inefficient transmission compared to the Max. They both start with the same power so the Bigfoot ends up with less power to the ground. The Max IV has a similar weight to the Bigfoot. Even with the 18hp engine and 26" tires on the IV, it is still a great deal faster and more maneuverable than the Bigfoot. In the real off road world, the Max II compares to the Bigfoot the closest of any others. The Avenger does have some advantages over the Conquest 8x8, but we have found the 8x8s to be even more helpless than the 6x6 Argos. I find it unfair to compare the Max IV 25/27hp with 26" tires to anything else... there is just nothing that compares.

Roger Smith ( - 67.234.27.223)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Brandon, you're right about wider tracks stressing the vehicle if you have to space the axles wider. We might not need them in our atv playgrounds where we live, but in the rockies where Fred lives you can't have too wide a track. Snow is different at altitude.. dry, fluffy, and measured by the yardstick.

fred sain

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Sorry to post this so late, it is in response to Fred Sowerwine,s trying to compare the MaxII to the ARGO BIGFOOT, this guy never stops!!! Fred old boy I have to say you would make a great comedian. The maxII is a 2 person machine, ARGO BIGFOOT 4 person land, 2 in deep water, it says it in black and white in the brochure. While we are comparing, I went to your site and got a price for a maxIV 600T, with the 18hp,added the bigger tires and found it to be almost $1000.00 higher than the ARGO BIGFOOT, which by the way comes standard with a skid plate, trailer hitch, and the 25" tires, and weights about 120lbs more , by the way I am proud of the weight difference between the ARGO and the max, WEIGHT=MATERIALS.

Peston

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred, sorry to disagree but my 2001 BIGFOOT has two stickers in the rear
storage area stating. NOT FOR PASSENGER USE. so I guess in deed this
makes it a two person machine, using logic of people siting in storage area, I guess
a max buffalo wouldbe a 10 passenger machine. Peston

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

OK Fred, If you want to compare the Bigfoot to a Max IV 600T with 26" tires, go ahead, but you lose in all categories (the BF is obliterated when compared to the Max IV 900 or 950T with 26" tires). Why would you want to have your machine compared to a superior performer? At least with the Max II as a comparable, the BF wins in the total payload category.

I really don't think you want to compare price wise either: sure maybe from MSRP, but real world prices undercut Argo's considerably (I can't imagine any Max dealer not coming at least 10 percent off the MSRP for any sale and we would all probably do better than that if we had to). It appears to me the only place Argos really have an advantage over Max is in the used market. There seems to be lots of used Argos with low hours for sale and prices seem to be less than comparable aged and equipped Max.

Do you have a web site with your prices listed? Oh yeah, weight equals Getting STUCK!

Eddie Beddingfield

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred Sowerwine, You really make this board unpleasant to read ,with your very biased opinions. You seem to think the Max is the best on the market, I assure you it is not. The quality is not even close to Argo. Also the PSI and 3-wheel drive thing is a mute point, With driving experience these points are easily overcome. Why dont you try to give good advise and tips and cut the Max is the best crap,then I may just keep reading. Eddie

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hey guys all I really care about is if these things really do go through snow good. Fred, on my Max whats the difference between it and the older ones (other than 14hp)? Werent pre98 basically the same even with the 18hp motor? Didnt they put tracks on those? Even if I spent $2000 on mine toughening it up (bigger motor, solid axles, bearing cages) It would still be cheaper than buying an 600T. I have about $3000 into mine now. I doubt I could "trade it in" on a 600T. Maybe I could even make it better? Just thinking, am I crazy?

Thanks,
Bill

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Why do you guys always attack Fred so bad? He always gives his honest advise. Its pretty simple really. Can you go farther in a truck with lockers or without? I own a max but like the looks of an argo. Actually I like the looks of a Max II best but argos are close. Probably most of us use these machines where it really isnt super critical but facts are facts. Having to learn how to feather brakes to get the best traction on one set of wheels, I would think requires alot more skill and practice than just jumping in a max or hydrotraxx and driving. Isnt maintenance on both machines pretty much the same? I think there probably are some points against a Max on price. Seems to me the Argo is cheaper. Yea maybe you can get a Max cheaper but then you have to add on to get it to where Argos come stock they are the same price or higher. Hydrotraxx seems there isnt any maintenance. Whichever you like, all of them are cool and can do things nothing else can!

BC

Bubba

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

BC,I really appreciate your attempt to bring peace amoungst the bretheren, but I feel like I owe an apology to all for printing "miss-Leading" information about my old Hydro-Traxx. It isn't maintenance free. I still have to change my oil every 50 hours, I still have to grease my three zerks once a year, and worse of all I have to spray mud off of it almost everytime I get back from the bogs. Sometimes I get so sick and tired of messing with the thing.
I used to get into the "who has the best machine" scuffles with the boys, but I have come to realize that all of the machines are good and have their places in the swamps. Some folks like fords, some like chevys, some like toyota's, and some don't like much of anything. While others try to promote what they have and nothing else is worth a dang. Notwithstanding, most of the intelligent folks on this web site probably enjoy watching the scuffles, and don't take much of the stuff very seriously. For the amount of BS we see, there is a ton of good information and ideas that can be usefull to us all.
I have learned to try to take things in stride and nothing too seriously, unless someone takes a direct shot at me or my old HT.Even that doesn't stir me up much anymore.
Happy mud wallowing.
Bubba, www.shadowmountainoutdoors.com

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Eddie, why don't you just skip my posts if they irritate you so. I don't think very many of them are addressed to your attention anyway. You like Argos, fine. I know lots of people who own and like Max; I don't personally know anyone who owns an Argo now and I have talked to several people who have owned them and do not like them. I have been trying for ten years now to find an Argo that will go head to head with me and I can't find one. I do not think there is a real Argo owner in Montana (If anyone knows of one, tell me so I can meet him/her and schedule a ride together). I have used Max in about every possible environment and I like the performance. You talk like Max fall apart going down a smooth road - well, that isn't so. My Max repair business is about nil and if people are buying a lot of parts, they are not going through me. The number of warranty repairs I have handled can be counted on one hand. Max has proven its abilities to me and the absence of Argos in Montana speaks volumes.

Bill, I don't think you can upgrade your machine to be able to use tracks for $2000 (you can probably do it and have less invested than buying a new machine, but it will be close (what are you going to do with all the parts you replace?). You need solid splined axles (requires new sprockets and chain) and at least an 18 HP engine. None of the Max can run the new track without solid splined axles (and bearing cages which come with the track kit) and any older max that is to be upgraded to handle the new track must do what you need to do. Prior to the New track, the old solid axle was adequate for the old style track (the pipe axle like you have on your 450T was not adequate and anyone who tried to put tracks on such a machine ended up breaking the flanges off). Up until the new track and the new axles, Max were not very good snow machines, at least not in Montana snow (I refused to sell them).

I'm sure you can trade your present machine in when buying a new max. Most Max dealers like used machines to sell. And no matter what you do to your machine it will still be the same year when you do go to sell it. If you buy a new machine, you will have all the benefits of the recent improvements. The advantage of buying a new machine is that the factory will install the bearing cages during manufacture (saving about ten hours of labor needed to pull all the axles).

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hey Bubba, sure wished that I knew about these things the 15 years I lived in AK. On Kodiak 8 years, and Anchorage 7! On Kodiak I could have gone forever! It would have been great. Heck even the bears wouldnt bother you if you go crashing over a kill.

Sorry didnt mean to assume the HT is maintenance free! Just make sure your ready when that boiling hydraulic fluid goes squirting all over you ;-). Now that I am here in so cal (for 5 long years) and going to my place in MT, you cant drive these things legally off the pavement it seems. Hell theres 1000s of miles of roads in NW Montana that are just gated off. Wildlife habitat! What do those yahoo liberals think I am? Im wildlife and I need some habitat! I understand conservation and all but all roads closed? Well you can go behind gates in the winter so thats why I asked the original question.

BC

Eddie Beddingfield

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred, most of the questions are not directed to you either , but you sure dont hesitate to pipe up.Also you have been invited to a few rides so dont give me that ,about not finding anyone who will go head to head.If I came to Montana I would challenge you on any terrain,but why would I come to Montana, theres nothing there. P.S. dont bother responding I probably wont be reading it antway.. Eddie

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Yup, Eddie, you are right there is nothing here in Montana. Yup, nothing at all. Tell your friends! God, I wish there was a gate we could lock (and a way to clean all the garbage that filtered in OUT).

I'll be showing up to one of your rides sometime in the future. A lot of people complain about driving 200 or 300 miles round trip. I drive 300 miles almost any direction (except South) and I'm still in Montana.

Bubba Hunt

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

BC, It makes me sick to see how the
Tree-Huggers" manage to lock up so much PUBLIC land for habitat.It is a part of the "ANTI's who want to lock EVERYTHING up. I used to think it was all done by the polititions, but I have come to realize that most of it is done by those little sneaky gov. workers sitting in their little sneaky offices. I really don't want to point fingers at them because a lot of them are doing a good job, but those in the Land Management and Fish and Game positions are making laws that affect every sportsman. They seldom, if ever, bring these "lock-up" programs up for a public vote. Actually they never seem to mention it until we find those gates locked and "Wildlife Habitat" written on the KEEP OUT signs.
I am a former member of the Alaska Fish and Game Advisory Board. We never done that up here, and our "rule changes" were done in public meetings.
Some of those pot-smokers with the little round glasses have made it into positions where they can make rules. I wish I had answers to what all to do to take back our land.I guess try to vote for those who support the sportsman. This year is going to be critical.
This board could have a very LOUD voice if it would get everyone together and fight this thing.There is a bunch of us out there who are very disappointed in the way that we get pinched off. There are a bunch of snow machine,aatv and outdoorsman who being discriminated against. It won't be long before we will be running around in circles on little paved tracks with fences around them.It was said that "All it takes for Evil to prevail, is for good men to do NOTHING"!
I think it is time for us "sportsmen" to get off of our soft aatv seats, and get together and fight for our rights as Americans. If we don't, we just as well sell our machines and get a little go-cart, because we will be in there with them running in those little circles wondering where it all went.Sorry for the steam blow, but this whole thing chafes my butt.
Bubba, shadowmountainoutdoors.com

fred sain

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Sowerwine, you are lost as usual, you compared the max II to the Bigfoot, in your post on Sept 13, now you want to compare it to the 900T that list for $11200., or the 950T that list for $11935. I think that with 10% off that list price, that will still put those machines, higher than a BIGFOOT.
In all fairness I see a lot of post where sowerwine, has given information to help someone, I guess he just likes a good argument.
Peston, all manufacture,s write their saftey rules, with their company and liabilty in mind. I have carried 7 adults in the rice feilds with the ARGO VANGUARD, but I would not try to climb a steep incline, or get in deep water with it over loaded.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred Sain, Yes, I like a GOOD argument. You are the one who wanted to compare the BF to the Max IV. I can't help it if RI has the ability to put a different engine in a machine and have it perform differently (better). My point was that if you want to compare the BF to a Max IV 600T (with 26" tires), you are comparing apples to oranges (they are not comparable in any area except maybe real world price). The Max IV 600T will out haul, out pull, out run, out maneuver and probably last just as long doing more.

Why doesn't Argo put a 25 hp or 27 HP engine in the BF?

The Big Foot should be compared to the Max II 600T with 22" tires (although I think the 450T and 500T with 22" tires are just as capable or more so than a BF)- The Max II 850T again puts the BF in a position of disadvantage. I think you must have had a Max II 450T when you thought about being a dealer (could have very well been the 12.5 HP model put out about 1992) because your arguments fit that machine, but nothing else. You should take a minute and look at some of the current model Max. You might just change your mind like Argoguru did (How you getting along with that Max II 850T, Jon?)

I'll ask again. Do you have a web site with Argo prices listed? Does any Argo dealer put their prices on the web? If so, give us a link.

Howard Hoover

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bubba,
I totally agree with you, in the past I have read articles about gates being put up at the entrances to trails that are only wide enough to let quads through etc. and just because our ATV's are a few inches wider than quads we aren't allowed on them. I think it's discriminatory also & even more so political because the company's who manufacture our 6x6 or 8x8 ATV's don't have enough capitol to advertise and pay off the politicians like Honda Suzuki Polaris etc.
Someone like Richard Clark or ? should start an on line PETITION so we all could sign it. It should even be passed on to Quad riders to sign because even though they ride Quads ultimately it isn't what we ride it's about being able to use Public Land!

Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hey Fred, we better ease up on those poor Argo guys. I know you haven't, but I have spent a good amount of time in an Argo vehicle. Believe me, you'd come back in a bad mood too!
It is against Argo dealer policy to list new vehicle prices on a dealer's website. RI doesn't mind their prices listed on a dealer site. I think you show what you're proud of. I know my vehicle prices are listed on my website, right by the vehicle pictures and info. We need a good base for comparison here and I just happen to have the Argo price list. These are the latest Missouri prices as of 4-1-04.
Vanguard 6x6 - $7590
Vanguard 2 6x6 - $8190
Bigfoot 6x6 - $9190
Conquest 6x6 - $11,590

Response 8x8 - $10,690
Conquest 8x8 - $12,290
Avenger 8x8 - $14,500

It is my understanding that Argo dealers and distributors stick very closely to these prices. Max retail prices are a very loose guideline for pricing the different models. I'll list them here for reference.
Max II 450 - $6555
Max II 500 - $7710
Max II 600 - $8350
Max II 850 - $9735

Max IV 500 - $8815
Max IV 600 - $9755
Max IV 850 - $10,500
Max IV 900 - $11,200
Max IV 950 - $11,935

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Thanks Brandon, now I understand why Argo folks are so touchy at times. I thought it was just that they paid too much for less, I didn't realize they are also a pain to operate.

Those prices are very interesting. Do you have accessory prices too? It would be interesting to compare things like winches, roll cages, tops, windshields, snow plows and tracks. They don't offer factory tire choices do they? I guess I am not surprised that there are not many (if any ) Argos being used in Montana. I thought it was just a performance issue, but now I realize it is price too. Do you know if they are going to start putting the rubber track on all their other models?

Eddie Beddingfield

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Wow, looks like Recreatives charges at least 3000.00 for just a bigger motor.I would buy a cheap model then upgrade the motor myself.talk about beeing in a bad mood,that would do it for me.

fred sain

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Brandon, You are right, ARGO does not allow dealers to list prices on their sites, nor does ARGO mail prices to potential customers, they also do not sell factory direct to customers. I may not agree with all of ARGO,s policies, but I have never worked with a company that is as loyal to a dealer as ARGO. I have never turned in a warranty, that they have not honored. If they do not want me to post prices, then I will not, but if you need a price on a NEW ARGO just call!!!!!

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Poor Eddie, You have it wrong again. Yes, there is $3120 difference between the Max IV 500T and the Max IV 950T, but you can't just switch motors in a 500T and have a 950T. For starters, the 500T is the entry level machine with pipe axles, standard sprockets, regular chain and no skid plates. If you started with a 600T ($2180 difference between 600T and 950T), you might be able to save a few bucks (again assuming your time worthless). Each engine has a different mounting kit with different mounts, wiring harness and different drive belt with the 900 and 950 (I think) having different drive pulleys due to the bigger drive shaft on the engines while the 950T has a completely different engine cover. When push comes to shove, one who changes engines in a new Max machine will end up having it cost more due to shipping and labor (I suppose if your time is worth nothing and you do all your own work, it might be a break even). And you have to be able to sell all the parts you replaced as they will be worthless to you.

Rogersmith (Rogersmith)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

You got to be kidding. Max still markets a hollow axle machine?

Eddie Beddingfield

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Sowerwine, It all comes down to you cant stand to hear anything negative about your Max machines. Still there are 3 basic machines Max II , Max 4, Buffalo Truck, That is the same as a 4 ,with a bed . The engine upgrade is the biggest difference between models. So no I dont have it wrong. Make sure to get the last word in because this my last post on this subject.

mark (Maxmark)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Boy you guys really got off the subject of how these things go in the snow! I purchased my maxII 500 last spring and am kind of looking forward to trying it in one of our northeast Ohio winters. So far not a bad machine and we have had a really wet year here. Lots of mud to play around in and am hoping it will do as good in the snow.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Well Eddie this post is only so others don't read what you wrote and assume it is correct (I have given up on trying to reach you). The Max II 450T and the Max IV 500T are entry level machines made for flat land use as transportation. They lack the solid splined axles and sprockets and o-ring chain that give extended life to the drive system. I personally wish RI would discontinue both models because they end up in the hands of someone who uses them like I might and they do not give the service that the rest of the line does. Excepting those two models, I will agree that the engine is the only major change within each series. The Buffalo is a combination of the Max II and the Max IV, but mostly resembles the Max II in design while in a body that sorta copies the Max IV. Three very different machines with very different abilities. The Buffalo, being the least performance minded, fits right in with the Argos (it weighs too much).

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Eddie, you need to do a little research before you type. With the engine upgrades on a MAX over the base model are drivetrain upgrades. Chain, sprockets, axles...all heavy duty on the upper models. That aside, have you ever seen a Buffalo Truck? I have a 2003 dump bed model. They share two things with a Max IV. The lower body and the transmisson. Ok, the engine on some models. As for quality...it is unbelievable on the Buffalo Truck and there is a reason I spent my hard earned cash on a Max and Buffalo Truck. By the way, I own a 1998 Bigfoot and a 2000 Max II 800T as well. I buy all my vehicles and equipement new and maintain them by the books.

Anyway, my Max II has the Recreatives tracks on it in the winter. I have not had a problem with it other than you have to use your head in deep powder. Like all skid steers, you can "high center" yourself if you are not careful. I have never tried tracks on the Bigfoot. A Max II without tracks will go through some snow, but tracks are the way to go, if it is in your budget.

Sorry Eddie, but lack of knowledge really gets me going.

Eddie Beddingfield

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Last message period. When you buy a new vehicle and other engine combinations are available ,it is the same model.Change trans ond gear ratios, it is still the same model. BJ you need a little refresher also.

Travis Chrystal (Travisch)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

I agree with Eddie - Freds comments and big mouth make this board unpleasent to read.
I've owned both a MaxIV and a Bigfoot at the same time and the argo out performed the max every time. The main difference between the two machines is the tranny. The Argo is not a full time 6x6 with power only going to one side or the other which isn't really a big deal once you learn how to drive it - the max is just easier. I feel the Max suffers from the lack of attention to detail during manufacturing and is cheaply built to save costs.
In a nutshell - the argo has hauled alot of Elk, deer & antelopt out of some pretty nasty stuff - I sold the max.

David Keeso (Argomag)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

I have to disagree with you Travis- everyone has their own opinions and are entitled to it- Everyone makes comments that get to others but you take it in stride- when things get stirred up, it makes the reading more interesting, but seriously, lets not go at each others throats here.

Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

It's great to see a good old fashioned 6x6 bash fest. It sure brings back memories. It makes the whole thing a lot more fun. Eddie, I think you are taking this a little too serious. It's all in good fun. I've never seen Fred insult anyone and never read one comment that wasn't a fact. You have to remember Fred is older than all of us combined, so he is real hard headed. haha.

I think it's past time to get some more 6x6 rides going. Our real competetion is with the quads and the only way to show them what we've got is to get out there and ride.

Rogersmith (Rogersmith)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Would be nice to see Brandon in his old form, leaning over the front of a MaxII. I was a late comer and missed his glory days. Last ride, he didn't have anything to drive, except new machines he understandably left at home. Was a good choice though, that one trail at Rockport was full of submerged rock shelf and sharp stuff. Dinged my wheels pretty good.

Eddie Beddingfield

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Roger ,would that of been Beggar's Gulch? That sure is a neet trail. Brandon ,I dont know why we cant have some bigger rides. The last few ones I have been on were few on machines. Remember when we had 48 machines show up in Indiana? I think the summer months are not real good riding months anyway.Troy, I know you get down sometimes because of low machine counts, but keep having them.I will try to make as many as possible.It is always more fun with more machines,maybe even Fred may show up someday. On the other note of beeing serious, I only get that way when Fred goes rampant with the slinging, Im not that way all the time. See everyone at the next ride . Eddie Remember Haspin is coming up on the 22-23-24!!!!!

PO Owner

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Well now I am really heartbroken. I thought my 450T was a great 6x6 for my 1st RI machine but I guess it's crap unless you stay on FLATLAND. I really feel slighted and hoodwinked that I put out the money for a marginal machine. I feel offended and ripped off since I used to think the 450T was a good machine based on a lot of the posts I read. Can't put tracks on it. Why don't the Max dealers tell you that before you buy? I guess they just want the money and could care less if the buyer hates the machine later. I feel RI should have been honest in the sales ads maybe someone finally tells the truth. It's to bad I already bought it.

Won't get my money out of it either.

Ticked off 450T owner.

Preston

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

PO

What the hell are you talking about, a MAX II is a nice machine

Preston

Bubba

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

PO not worry, When I bought my Hydro-Traxx, I found a really good use for my old Max. I filled half full of dirt, 1/4 full of Montana Horse manure, 1/4 full of Missouri Bull Manure and planted it with potatoes. I have raised some of the best taters you have ever seen. I drive it into the shed for the winter so I can get the soil warmed up, then out in the warm sun for the long summer days.All of my aatv friends really envy my adaptability.I am not trying to rib my old buddies as they have not jumped on me like a hungry pack of wolves lately.The hardest thing was getting all of that quality manure shipped up here.
Other than that, enjoy your machine, it is much better than you may think. If you need any more encouragement, just let me know. o:))
Bubba

maxindetroit

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Well I have a Max 2 94 vintage with a 16hp Briggs, and I love it, I have taken it in to some places I was praying I wouldnt get stuck, and the beast went thru it like it was nothing, .......flatland you say.......i dont even think about driving on flat land. But if its swamps, bogs, hills, streams, ponds, lakes, etc. then you have the machine. As for snow, I have only taken mine into about a foot of fluffy stuff, with no problems, I did go onto some deep stuff out on a frozen lake, but the beast just climbed up on the crust and went over it no problem. I do not have tracks, just 22inch Goodyear Rawhides, so I dont take it in really deep snow. Just thought i would add my 2 cents.

Jeff (87max2)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

come on Bubba, its not nice to kick a guy when he's down.

Bubba

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Jeff, really, I would be the last to kick someone when they are down. There has been so much real hurtfull things getting written lately that I was just trying to lighten things up a bit and let folks not take things so seriously. It wasn't PO that I was ribbing, and most of those who read these postings know that. It does bother me to see some of the harsh statements that have been flying around.I am one who will congradulate anyone who has put out the bucks on an aatv, no matter which one they have. Personally, I like things about them all and I think that everyone who has one is blessed.
In the past I have posted things that I like about my old HT and got "gummed" by a lot of the "good old Dogs", which I find amusing. It was some of the "Old Dogs" that I was ribbing.
I do believe that PO will find a lot of good things about his Max, and will have a ball with it.Besides, if I get everyone mad at me they won't buy my new book, "The Wilderness Trail" at www.authorhouse.com. It's full of my sick back-woods humor.
Bubba, www.shadowmountainoutdoors.com

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

PO Owner, I didn't say the 450T was crap. I said it lacks the drive system enhancements that give extended life. Many people use them with no problems, but if you have read this forum, you will read posts by people who have used their machines to the extreme and had problems (most of those are 450T owners).

It is pretty black and white on the literature what is standard equipment on each model. I don't think anyone is pulling any wool. The track kit description says "requires 21" Goodyear tires and solid axles". I live at 4200 feet elevation and use the machine up to 7500 or so in dry powder. In my situation, 18 HP is a minimum for adequate performance with a tracked machine; people in lower elevations and more solid snow can probably get adequate performance with 14 or 16 Horsepower machine. Up until a few years ago, one could upgrade the 450T Max II and the 500T max IV with solid axles (then all machines could be made track capable).

I probably worry more about owner satisfaction than some because I have a limited market and I strive to have 100% satisfied customers. I realize that many people don't read all the info before they buy and they come to me for my experience. My wife accuses me of trying to talk people out of buying from me (I don't do that, but I am only aware of one person who I didn't spend enough time with prior to the order). I don't think anyone who has bought from me will say that I wasn't 100% forthright.

Your 450T Max II is a fine machine if you don't abuse it (or have someone else who might operate it that would abuse it), but it will not last as long as the machines with better drive system components. If you live at a low elevation and intended to use tracks on your 450T max II you did not do adequate research or ask enough questions. Even though I do try to have fully informed customers, I don't think it is any dealer's duty to cover every possible scenario - they do have a duty to give you an answer to your questions. Sometimes a buyer is wiser to deal with someone who has some expertise rather than one who offers the lowest price (sometimes you can get both).

Rogersmith (Rogersmith)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Aww, if it bothers you just substitute the word Argo where it reads Max... it's not personal for him. I'm wakin' up and smellin' the coffee when it comes to Bubba's humor (chuckle)

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bubba, I thought that manure came to you straight over the internet. You shouldn't have hardly any shipping costs. You know, don't you, that if you mix Missouri stuff with Montana stuff that it is so hot that it will set most anything on fire. I'll bet those potatoes come out ready to eat; all you have to do is add butter.

At least you know where the honest answers come from.

Speaking of that old Hydro traxx, have you ever been brave enough to weight it?

Bubba Hunt

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Fred, my old friend, I was sure I would get a raise out of you . It's good to hear(be gummed by the old dog)from you once again.
Nope, I haven't weighted it because I haven't found the need. They say it is 1200 lbs, but I have a cage on it , so I don't really know.
Some folks like 1/2 ton trucks, some like 3/4 ton trucks, I pack moose and big bears, so I like 1-ton rig.
I wasn't going to give this up, but I have decided to tell it anyways. It may help some one trying to improve their rig.
Since my old Hydro is 10 feet long and 6 feet wide and kind of looks like a big tub, I installed hot water heater elements and a dozen water jets inside. I don't have any chains or sprockets to rust so I didn't figure it would hurt anything.It sure is nice to come in after a long day in the bogs and have a nice long soak, with those jets spraying all over everything.I know it must have added a little more weight, but you know the hydraulic power never seems to notice it.After two weeks in the bush, I bet I smell a lot better than some of my old cronies.
Bubba shadowmountainoutdoors.com

PO Owner

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Well Mr. Sowerwine...
Right here is an excerpt from the RI web site.

Go to their site and read it yourself if you don't believe me.

As A Max dealer, you should be conversant with what the manufacuturer of the product you sell is saying about it.

What do you say about this? This below was taken from the RI web site. It indicates that every MAX ATV can be fitted with rubber tracks.

MAX ATVs are extremely maneuverable due to their skid-steering and feature full-time six-wheel drive and extremely low ground-pressure which allows them to traverse incredibly soft, muddy or swampy terrain. Every MAX ATV can be fitted with an optional rubber track kit that allows the unit to drive over several feet of powder snow or mud flats.

It looks pretty darn well black and white to me. I mean if it's on RI's web site, is that not just as good as their literature? I think that my Max 450T qualifies as being grouped in the every Max category

It should not matter where I live or where I want to drive my Max. Tracks for Max means tracks for Max. I don't see anything where it says that a bigger engine than 14 hp is needed for tracks. If RI says that every Max can be fitted with tracks, that includes the 450T.

Oh...okay, now I see it. I guess that the Max that is filled with dirt and used for growing vegatables can be fitted with tracks too. Nothing says that it can be driven or operated with tracks, just that it can be fitted with a track kit.

I guess I'll be more careful the next time and hire a lawyer to read the fine print before I buy something that obviously I'm not intelligent enough to interpret for myself.

Here is an pre-copy draft for my newspaper for sale ad.... For Sale, Cheap Max Crap or is it Crap Max.

I guess that after I wind up practically giving it away, I'll add the extra 10 grand on top of the base entry level machine price of the Max 450T and get an Avenger.

I suppose that the fine print reads something like this for a Max 450T owner who wants tracks:

All Max 450T models can be fitted with a track kit that includes the following selected upgrade parts in addition to the tracks. B&S Vanguard 16 hp engine (higher horsepower rated engines are available at additional cost), solid splined axles, upgraded sprockets, O ring chains, oh heck, why just don't you buy a better machine, something other than the 450T or 500T.

Preston

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

POed I will be happy to take the junk MAx off your hands, I think they are nice machines, but since you are selling it cheap. I want it.
Preston

Alex

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

You can put tracks on a Max II 450T as long as you have solid axles and the track kit. Yeah, you may notice the machine moves much slower than without tracks, but they do rob horsepower. Tracks do that. You may notice it more in the deep powder. Snow does that to a machine. It is like putting a plow on a Ford Ranger or Nissan pickup and trying to plow 100 contracts. It isn't recommended by dealers or plow guys, but people still do it and I'm sure some have no problems at all. Just my $0.02.

fred sain

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

We have been on this subject before, but for the record. ARGO,S DO NOT HAVE MECHANICAL UP-GRADES.
SORRY GUY,S but the ARGO,S come ready to use. Of course you can buy accessories.

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

PO, it can be frustrating with any machine. I also have a 450T and am planning to put tracks on it to see how it goes. Certainly Max is not clear that you need alot of additional items (track kit) besides just tracks to run tracks even on the high end machines. Even on a top of the line Max IV 950T, you would probably need all new wheels and tires and the track kit and tracks. I doubt you would want to run one of those alot in the summer with the 21 inchers. That equates to alot of money to track your machine. ARGO is not that much better tho. I think I read somewhere that on the standard vanguard 6x6 that they arent set up for tracks but on the ARGO website they indicate tracks are optional. I do believe that on the bigger machines that they are setup for tracks without an additional track kit or different wheels and tires. Thats why I still think the Avenger is probbaly cheaper in the long run that the top Max. And we ALL know the differences in how the machines operate. I am just talking money. Bottom line both websites could be alot more informative.

BC

liflod (Liflod)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

This is directly from the Max website. It is under accessories.
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Track Kit
Reinforced rubber track with aluminum tire guides lowers ground pressure to less than one PSI, fully loaded. Turns MAX into a tracked vehicle for use all year �round on snow, mud and all surfaces. Kit includes wheel extensions, outer bearing cages and frame rail for extra axle support. Available on all models. Requires 21� Goodyear Rawhide tires and solid axles.
(All Vehicles)
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You would have to purchase the solid axles along with the track kit for you machine. They sell solid axles that are not splined so you do not have to buy the sprockets and you do not have to buy the O-ring chain.
What everyone is trying to tell you is you bought the base model Max and it does not come with all the features that come with a higher end model.

The Max you bought will do amazing things and I would not worry too much about hurting it while driving it over rough terrain. If you do bend an axle it is probably from hitting a tree or something and even if you had solid axles, they would bend under those circumstances. Replacing a bent axle is always easier than straightening a frame.
I'm sure you can run tracks on your machine without solid axles. They may bend or break eventually and then you can upgrade them as you go.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Wow! RI has changed their web site. The dealer section is going to be good. OK PO'ed, you are right it says what you say it says, but if you will look under accessories, the track kit description says you need solid axles (if your Max II 450T has solid axles you are good to go with a track kit).

About the 14HP or 16HP having enough power to run tracks, all I can say is that the machines are made in Buffalo New York and my guess is they work fine there at that elevation and in their snow. I'm not sure they need to test their product everywhere. I've got a hunch that not many machines (from any manufacturer) work very well on top of Pike's peak. I know what works in the elevations and snow conditions I operate in and that is what I base my writings on.

I'll stand by what I said eerier. The buyer needs to be informed and ask questions. Sometimes, the money you save by buying the least expensive ends up costing you more in the long run and this isn't just true when buying a skidsteer.

Another thing I noticed in the new web site is that all models gained a few pounds.

fred sain

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, all ARGO,s come ready for tracks, even the Vanguard, if you go to the super tracks, you have to use the spacer kit to move your tires away from the body, so the 18 inch wide tracks will clear the body. I have several customer,s running the Vanguard II with the regular tracks, they use them in very muddy areas, where they do not need to rut it up anymore than they have to.

Argohunter (Argohunter)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hey PO Owner. My Max450T goes okay in the snow here in WI until it gets too deep. I sure would like to have tracks too but I realize that there are limitations to everything. In my neighboring state of MN, there is a company that makes tracks for 4 wheelers and aatv's. I suppose if you use tracks with common sense and not abuse the machine, your 450T may hold up fine with those lighter made tracks. I'm tempted to try them myself but I can't convince my pocketbook that I really need them.

Hey BC, if you put tracks on your 450T, let us readers know how it turns out. Were you thinking about the RI tracks or the aftermarket ones that are made in MN for about $900.00?

bcripe7350

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

What do you guys think about Tru-Trax? I know they are only about 13 inches wide but they may not require solid axles, bearing cages, etc... They told me they have lots of guys running them on 14 horse machines with no problems. Plus they are ALOT cheaper than the max kit and weigh less. The Max guys also recommended that I go this route on a 14 horse.

Motown's (Bigwolf)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill,

You should give the Tru-Trax a try! They should run good on your Max II, it is about the lightest weight 6x6 machine out there. I have saw quite a few guys post messages mentioning the Tru-Trax work well and are a good product. It is a plastic track so it should allow you to turn a little easier as compared to rubber tracks.

In fact I have saw dealer video's of Max's running without bearing cages. They are probably older video footage of earlier model Max's, before R.I. came out with all the added extra gear to better reinforce the axles. It's not like you are going to destroy your machine if you decide to use them. The worst thing that can happen would be, you wear out the bearings sooner than you planned on, and just maybe you bend an axle or two if you hit some thing real hard. One of our Max dealer here in Michigan told me a couple of times, they do run some of their older machines with out bearing cages or solid axles, and they run just fine. They do have quite a bit of experience with tracks, and they also make their own track kits as well, so I believe they know what they are talking about.

They make their own version of the cast aluminum wheel giudes, and they are just about identical to the R.I. wheel guides, only his are just slightly heavier.

I was thinking about buying a set of his aluminum wheel guides, and make a set of tracks for my Max IV. I have not decided if I want to buy the 15" wide Kimpex rubber track, or try some heavy duty multi layer polyurethane conveyor belting. The conveyor belting I can get for nothing, and I could cut it to what ever width and length that I want or need, so I may just try that first.

Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, Please, if you go any route except the RI complete kit route (probably even with the RI kit), make sure someone knows where you are and will come looking for you if you don't show up on time. IMO, hollow axles will not stand up to track usage of any type or brand (sure you will get by for a while, but will never know when the wheel flanges are ready to give way) and you do not have the liberty to "just walk out" if something goes wrong. Unless people have been in Montana's "cold smoke" powder, they have no idea what will go and what will not and what might be OK for some could put you in peril.

Bubba Hunt

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill, I have broken more tracks than I care to talk about.The worse thing is when they break way back in many miles and it is below zero. You need to e-mail me if you want what NOT to buy. While I'm at it, I have to carry a dremmel cutter to cut the little collets off as they rust and you can't get them off when you need to replace a couple of links. When they break...it seems to rip two links as they rip apart. Shoot me a line or give me a call.And, Fred and I don't agree on very much, but I think he needs listening to on this one. It is your life and all of those with you.
Bubba, www.shadowmountainoutdoors.com

dt5428

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hey guys I have just found the best use for my Argo Conquest to date the only bad thing is the top has to be down.I loaded the kids in the Argo and took them trick or treating.It's great the kids don't even have to get out of the Argo just pull right up to the front door and give them a shout the other nice thing is you can just throw the candy and wrappers right on the floor and worry about them later.Of course you must have you tracks on for low psi because some of doors are hard to get next to and you have to drive over the shrubs and lord know I would not want to damage anyones shrubs.One last thing if you try this pay close attention the the sod and sprinkler systems they get expensive to replace if you damage them.No more whining from the kids they are tired and cold and I can eat drive and get fatter by the minute.Hey Fred and Bubba you should both give it a try since the houses are far and few between where you guys are and they you guys can discuss who has the best trick or treat machine.Just kidding everyone Happy Halloween.

Later,Dan LOL

Bill cripe (Bcripe)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Thanks guys, you talked me out of it. Ill just buy a new max when I can and leave the track idea alone until then. The 23hp max II with tracks is what I really want anyway. I grew up in the woods and am always prepared for the worst but unless I am going to stay put till spring, I would probably have to be rescued and thats not fair to others.

Hey Don, that would be a sight to see! you probably wouldnt last long!

Thanks,
Bill

Bubba Hunt

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hey dt5428, I have to conceed to Fred, the Max is faster and lighter. There is no way I could compete with that.There is one thing, though, I can carry probably 1000 lbs more tootsie rolls than Fred. :O) The only problem is I would have too much PSI on the snow. By the time I ate all of those tootsies, my sugar would be so high that they would have to come and get me in a Max.
I don't mind going into EMERGENCY, but I sure as heck don't want to go in a Max!!!
By the way, my new book, www.thewildernesstrail.com is really taking off.If you are interested in a bit of back-woods humor, topped with a lot of BS (bear stories),check it out.Happy weenie !!
Bubba www.shadowmountainoutdoors.com

Bubba Hunt

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Motown's (Bigwolf)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Bill,

You know I forgot that you do not have the use of your legs, and that you also have a place some where in Montana. Bubba and Fred are absolutely right, you do not want your machine set up with any thing that is questionable or experimental.

The people that I mentioned who do not set up their machines with the correct track prep kits, and run them on a shoe string, live here in Southern Lower Michigan. We do not get very many feet of snow fall during the winter months in this area. What snow fall we do get is usally a heavy snow and it rarely gets much deeper than one to three feet, through out the season.

Your thoughts about getting a new machine and setting it up correctly with the track prep kit, and the rubber tracks would be the best solution for you.

Dan, sounds like you had some fun with the kids this evening. Enjoy it while it lasts, they grow up way to fast!

I ended up going hunting this evening for Halloween, and trying out a new climbing tree stand for the first time. It was an interesting hunt this evening to say the least!

By the way I finally received that new trailer that I bought to tow behind the ATV. It is a real nice added piece of gear to have. It is built very well and is very durable looking.

Motown's (Bigwolf)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

George

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Wow Wee,
What did we all do before RI came out with their new amd improved machines, tracks and track kits?

We used old Max's and carried spare plugs, lot of them because 2-cycle's oil fouled the plugs a lot. Old homemade tracks broke and balloon tires went flat.

When snowmobiles were young and antique by today's standards, engines quit, tracks broke and we walked, snowshoed or skied out. No cell phones or GPS back then. We always let someone know where we were going but did it matter? I mean you can cover a lot of miles in a machine. Snowmobile at -30 degrees ambient temperature, not wind chill. You bet we did. Common sense, common sense, common sense. Hunt 10+ miles back in the woods or hills off the nearest road reachable only by a jeep using a winch to get there? Yes we did, even when it was colder than -40 degrees. The term wind chill had not been invented yet. Machines broke down, we walked out but were prepared to spend the night or several nights in the cold wilderness. Yes, at least I did.

Go ahead live large and try the Max with the Tru Trax. If you break down, just remember, be prepared, use common sense and by all means, plan for survival.

Remember, even a new Max with the latest and greatest track kit in the world can break down. After all, it's a man made machine

George

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

mark (Maxmark)

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Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Finally got some snow here in northern Ohio and have been experimenting with my max II in the snow. With all the talk about tracks I wasn't expecting much as mine doesn't have them, but this thing really goes in the snow! We have a total of about 18 to 20 inches of light snow here now and it seems to go thru it no problem. It does plow it along with the front end, but if it starts to got too much of a build up I just back it up and get a running start into the pile and blast right through it. This thing is a blast!