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John Kevin Maiolo (Johnmaiolo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
COVERAGE OF THE IRAQ PRE WAR HAS UNVEILED A PROPULSION SYSTEM ON THE MILITARIES LATV'S. IT IS A SET OF PROPS THAT ARE MOUNTED ABOVE AND REARWARD OF THE BACK TIRES. THEY PROTRUDE FROM THE SIDE OF THE BODY. THE REPORTED WATER SPEED WAS 5 MPH. FOR ALL THOSE THAT WANTED TO MOUNT A PROP AT THE REAR OF THEIR AATV, HERE IS A GOOD OPTION MILITARY PROVEN. |
ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
john,
I am just about ready to pull the plow off my Attex and get going on the water propulsion system I have designed. It basically consist of putting an extra sprocket on each rear axle, running a chain up to a 90 degree gear box (one on each side), and then shafts with props on the end sticking out the back end. I have also thought of using a belt from the axles but I am afraid it will slip. Would love to get a picture or a link to look at the military vehicles.
p.s. I have discussed the idea at length with my wife, and she is firmly convinced I need therapy. |
John Kevin Maiolo (Johnmaiolo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
I saw it live on a news show, sorry no link to a web site. Chain drive sounds like it will be sturdy, more weight though. yeah, some people don't understand aatv gearheads, I know what you're talking about. |
ejwarden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
John,
It seems to me that one of the coolest attributes about the 6wheeler is the fact that they float, yet once in the water, they are notoriously ineffective. I find it amazing that one of the two companies remaining in the industry hasn't come up with an economical solution. Sure, everyone knows it's like trying to push a bathtub through the water, but if a machine was capable of at least a realistic 10 mph in the water, wouldn't that be a big seller? |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
One would think that since these machines are so versitile, as ejwarden said, water travel should not be so painful. If these machines are made to traverse water, they should be able to do it efficiently. Although these aren't made for extensive water travel, I think a lot of people are hesatent about water travel because it goes so slow in water. What I worry about is if I am in water and i go into mud or sand that the vehicle get stuck in, and you are floating, how do you get out. Their is no way to get a burst of speed in water because it takes so much to get a bit of thrust in water. If the runnamucks treads were deeper, say another 5-8 mm deeper, they may cling on and propel better in water. |
Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
David -
Deeper treads might also throw more water ahead of the machine and slow it down, a bit like the tracks do. Other things that might help would be a better tread pattern (but that means that Left and Right tires would not interchange) or fenders that help control water flow. I think propellers or water jets would work far better. If ODG and/or RI would include a PTO on the tranny for a propeller, that would be a huge improvement. (I don't want to come straight off the engine since I'd like to be able to reverse the prop.) Right-angle drive off the rear axle makes sense, too. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
The tires don't interchange now though. You can't move the left tires to the right-- the stems for the air on on one side and when you move a tire to the other side, you have to put it on backwards for the stem to be on the outside. Someone once mentioned adding small pieces to the axles. if you add little metal pieces that extend out from the axle, they would act as a small water wheel. As the axles turn, the pieces also turn |
Kevin Percy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
I have a Penguin, and what was done on them to help with water propulsion was install a set of rubber flaps on the body to act kind of like scrapers at the back of the tire to keep them from throwing water up and forward. On the 6x6's they would probably have to be installed behind each set of tires (unless you had tracks on), and placed as close to the waterline as possible. (the Penguin has them too low and the tire throws water all over the place anyway). The early ones also had a set of paddle blades mounted on the axle between the wheel and the body, but I don't know how well they worked, they dropped them off of later models when they changed the tire tread from a turf style to a "v"tread style.
I would think that as long as the wheels are hanging down from the body water speed will be limited (unless you want to use ridiculous amounts of horsepower) I don't doubt that there are ways to add some speed, but they will surely add cost to the machine, and you have to decide what that bit of water speed is worth to you. |
uzi2100c
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
You guys want to see some props, go to the Power Track link. Pick used PT's and look at the pictures of the rescue vehicle for sale. I know, these units are hydrolic but thought might be good for ideas on placement, size, etc.
Do any of you have experience with using a boat motor and/or a trolling motor. Sure would like to use my HT for fishing small streams but afraid a 3 mph current would completely stall you out. Hope someone figures it out. Ron |
ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Dougmac, you are right, I want to use the axles so that the props will have reverse also.
Well, if all goes as planned, I will be at the ride in Humphrey with the propellers on my Attex. That is why I was a little bummed that the ride isn't at the firehouse, where some of you might remember my miserable attempt with the duel trolling motors (it seemed like a winner of an idea at the time.)
The simple fact is that trying to come up with a "better" six wheeler, by using a welder and a few pops is most of the fun. If it works, great, if not, tear it off and try again! |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
yah i remember your attempt, if you hadent stoped too turn em on you may have taken the first place trophy, you were pulling an impresive time up too that point. |
jerry smith (Deerhunter)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
I HAVE USED A FEW OUTBOARD MOTERS ON MY BIGFOOT RANGING FROM 5HP TO 9.9HP ON A MOUNT I MADE UP TO FIT IN THE RECEIVER HITCH TO LOWER THE MOTOR SO YOU DON,T HAVE TO USE A LONG SHAFT. I FIND THE 5HP IS ALL YOU NEED, THE SPEED IS THE SAME.THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GET YOUR AATV TO GO FASTER IN THE WATER IS TO HAVE THE FRONT END MORE LIKE A BOAT TO CUT THOUGH THE WATER.GOOD LUCK JERRY |
P.J.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Sure would be fun to have a Monster Garage style challenge to see who can build the fastest AATV in the water. I can see the body mods etc. now!
Are there any Jesse James types out there interested? |
uzi2100c
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Jerry, I could use your help. First can you discribe how you made the mount to fit the receiver hitch? Did the motor push your Bigfoot around pretty good with good directional control? Would it push it against a moderate current? How you ever tried a trolling motor? If so, where & how did you mount it? Will it move the unit around very well? I just purchased a Hydro Traxx and whould sure like to find a way to fish small streams and rivers with it. Spining tires would probably spook fish plus catching a fast spining tire on a stump or something might just flip the rig. Thanks, Ron |
Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Argomag-
You miss understood me when I said you could not interchange tires. Now you can interchange tires. You buy six tires, and they do not become left or right side tires until they are mounted. If we wanted to develop tires with the best possible in water performance, we could find that we need to buy three left tires and three right tires BEFORE they are mounted. |
Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Argomag-
You miss understood me when I said you could not interchange tires. Now you can interchange tires. You buy six tires, and they do not become left or right side tires until they are mounted. If we wanted to develop tires with the best possible in water performance, we could find that we need to buy three left tires and three right tires BEFORE they are mounted. |
ejwarden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
David,
You are right, I did have a good run going, but I had to try the trolling motors, that was half the fun! If you check the pictures from the run, you will notice that I had my tires on "forward", and that helped me zip through the mud. I have tried the tires on my Attex both ways, and have found a considerable difference in performance through mud with the "V" facing forward. Once you hit the water though, you are done.
Jerry- about the outboard engine... in the water, my Attex is very back heavy because of the engine and tranny placement. I have sunk it numerous times coming out of water onto a steep bank. I'm afraid that any more weight will make it worse. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Is their really a tire/wheel that really ups your performance in water?? The rawhides just make you go in reverse according to what I am told, the runnamucks are alright until tread wears down, and I havn't heard of a quad tire that works. What is the most ideal tire. for mud and water. |
argoguru
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
david,
From experience, the rawhide works much better than the runnamucks. If they didn't work well RI and ODG would not put the rawhides on their machines from the factory. the rawhides on my bigfoot pick the front end up out of the water considerably at 3/4 throttle and it will go much faster than with runnamucks. the best tire I have seen for water is the dycos on max 1Vs. |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
argomag,
if you are going backwards with your rawhides in the water,,,turn them around.in other words swap sides with the "v" going up.
i don't know what style they were,but the titans that troy was running on his maxIV seemed to pull him through the water pretty good,and did just fine in the mud too.if i weren't selling my bigfoot,i would probably buy a set of them. |
Dave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
MOTORS: I have been pricing 6 HP four stroke 20 inch long shaft outboards. (6 HP weighs around 50-60 pounds, the 9.9 HP weigh around 110 pounds, to heavy for wife to handle). Seems the Mercury motors run around $1600 and the Johnson motors around $1900. I found Nissen motors at www.cabelas.com for $1100 with free shipping. Anyone know of a CHEAPER motor by a name brand company?.....or a web site where I can pick up a Johnson, Mercury, Evenrude, etc for less? |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
bass pro used to have a 5 horse outboard for about 600.00,weighed about 30 lbs.now bear in mind this was about 4 years ago.but i pretty sure they would have something to suit your needs.go to www.basspro.com ,and check out what they have. |
Pete
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
B&S has a 5hp air cooled one for 699.99 from cabela's |
attexsixwheeler
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
One excellent way to get more speed in the water is to get the tires out of the water! I have built a model AATV before with retractible hydrofoils, and with a tiny remote control boat engine and jet it goes almost as fast as the boat it came out of! The bad thing is that the model buggy was wrecked due to unstability so all I have left are parts. It used a three-foil system, with two in front and one in rear with integral jet drive. Speeds of 20 MPH or more would be no problem for the real thing! Retract foils and tackle tough terrain as normal. |
Jim
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
My experience has been that the hull speed of most 6 wheelers is around 4-5 mph. Now, design a front end attachment that modifies the hull speed and you'll have something. Interestingly enough I am building an eletric outdrive (trolling motor raising and lowering) unit for a max 4. I am almost done welding and will post pics when its done. It allows for an electric boat motor to be lowered in the water and raised out from the front seat -- like an outdrive unit on a boat. My design utilizes a 24 inch screw design. |
ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Jim,
Please post pics when you get it done, I would love to see it. I tried two electric trolling motors, and it didn't have enough "umph". I like the idea of props, but I want to utilize the power of the sixwheeler engine. Why use a seperate engine, adding more weight, when you have a perfectly good engine that is just sitting there waiting to work. |
amphibious1
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
10-12 ft jon boat gutted to remove seat platforms.
36" bottom. Drill holes in side of boat for flange mounted bearings. Take insides out of maxII or Argo and swap them into jon boat hull. Cover with marine grade plywood that is removeable for service. Ad floatation back in the seat boxes and you have a true amphibious boat. |
Howard Hoover
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Sorry if I'm changing the subject but you have mentioned chains in this discussion and I was wondering if anyone has seen this type of chain tensioner? it is round and rides or free wheels in between your chains it just looks like a sprocket more or less but larger in diameter so it forces the chain up farther on the top and down lower on the bottom instead of squeezing the chain together It's supposed to give the chains and sprockets longer life and the chain rides on the sprocket the correct way or the way it's supposed to anyway instead of the chain riding down the sprocket? Howard |
Dave Johnston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
The Briggs and Straton motor is 6 hp but only has a 15 inch (short) shaft. Not low enough in the water for an ARGO. Best I came up with is a 6 hp...four stroke long (20") shaft Nessan from Cabelas. (Around $1170 with free delivery) While the ARGO can take up to a 10 hp motor, the weight is around 105#...not including gas. (Internal gas tank?) The 6 hp weighs around 55# and since the gas tank is not internal, I have no added weight. My plan is to run a heavy duty gas line to the main tank of the ARGO. Wife in the back will run the motor when we are in the water, to better balance out the weight. I will let you all know how it goes... In regards to lights, by the way, there are cheap ($25) battery powered navigation lights you can buy that stick on with a clamp or suction cup. A good idea if you end up out in a lake at night. At least it is one LESS ticket you can get... |
Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Dave -
Great idea! However, I wish I could figure a way to use that nice 18 HP engine under the hood. A PTO back to the lower unit from a outboard, maybe? At times like this I wish I had studied engineering... |
Mark D. Gray
Junior Member
Username: Newt
Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 161.88.255.140
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 06:33 am: | |
Has any one thought of putting paddles between the tiers and body on the axles? kind of like an old river boat. |
Douglas MacCullagh
New member
Username: Dougmac
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.160.134.228
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 09:36 am: | |
Mark, I've thought about it, but there are two problems. First, how would I attach the paddles? Second, for a paddle wheel to be effective the axle has to be out of the water. What might work better is a rig that uses the hitch receiver and has a friction drive from the rear tires to boat propellers. Hook it up just before going into the water and take it off when you crawl out. I just do not have the mechanical skill to build a prototype. |
Rogersmith
Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 4.244.174.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 09:40 pm: | |
So there's other people who dream up stuff like I do. How about a shell of a hull, that you drive into, wheels and all. Made to fit like a glove to the aatv body. Could we seal it up in the back, landing craft style.. well maybe in the front? Pump the water out and get the thing to come up on plane using aatv's engine?  |
Mark D. Gray
Junior Member
Username: Newt
Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 161.88.255.140
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 05:04 am: | |
Douglas
I think you are correct about the paddles idea , however your propeller idea sounds good. One of them on the left & one on the right . They would start and stop with the wheels. Brilliant !! That way you could still steer it with the laterals. You might use a straight shaft with the prop on one end and a small tire on the opposite end, which would press against the back tiers. These shaves would have to be supported by some kind bracket that could apply the pressure as well as be removed. Like you said ( a receiver hitch ) On boats that have twin screws the props are counter rotating. You would also have to have counter rotating props , because the driving surface would be on the opposite side of each back tire. These props would also be helpful in reverse. What do you think ? |
Douglas MacCullagh
New member
Username: Dougmac
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.160.134.228
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:52 pm: | |
Mark,
We are thinking along the same lines. I was wondering about angling the propeller shafts out (so the thrust lines converge) to make steering easier. And yes, it would finally give us an effective way to back up in the water. The friction tire would have to be small to keep drag down. But we are thinking along the same line. All we need is someone who can build it... |
Jerry R. Nuss
Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 66.20.228.205
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 08:45 pm: | |
This discussion has me thinking. I might draw up something and fab one up to give it a try. This would go on an Argo and utilize the hitch receiver as a mounting point. The unit would look like a H shape with a picec to fit into the receiver in the middle of the H, the cross bar of the H woud have a square tube so the outer legs of the H could move in and out. They could move out to press against the tire and in to remove it or disengage. The legs of the H would be a round tube with a bushing or bearings. Another tube or solid stock would go into the legs of the H with a contact wheel on one end and props on the other end. I would have the contact wheels contact the rear tires at 5 o'clock on the RR and 7 o'clock on the LR tires. The part that goes into the receiver could have a joint in it that allows it to be rotated up when not in use and rotated down when needed and locked into position with a pin.
As mentioned the previous post the props would be mirror images of each other. |
Mark D. Gray
Junior Member
Username: Newt
Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 161.88.255.140
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 02:50 am: | |
Douglas
The smaller the friction tire is: the faster the prop will turn.
It sounds like Jerry Nuss might be the one to build a prototype.
Jerry
Please post some pic's of it If you do build one, and maybe the drawings too. I have another project that i am working on at the present time which takes up what little time I've got. ( see thread -Two 12 hp Tecumseh engines in one max II )
I like the idea of hinging it and rotating it to engage and disengage the propellers. |
Fredryck T. Macko
New member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.135.54
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:19 am: | |
Jerry, I already have one drawn up, but I'm all mind and no elbow! It's coming at you via email. Let me know if you want it as an attachment. If you gonna make one, make one for me, if you gonna sell em, cut me in for half, my retirement fund needs some help....Todd |
Fredryck T. Macko
New member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.135.54
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:51 pm: | |
Just realized that I can post a pic. I've sent this to Jerry earlier. You guys critique it. Maybe we'll come up with the perfect water propulsion assist system.
 |
Douglas MacCullagh
New member
Username: Dougmac
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.160.134.228
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 05:15 pm: | |
Fredryck, I almost missed the gearing in your arrangement. With a spray shield over the top it might work, but I am not sure how well it would steer. The thrust line is pretty close the the center line of the Argo. A rudder behind each paddle wheel might help. I like your drive wheel mounting. Is the friction tire pneumatic? Juggling air pressure might make it easier to install. Just thinking out loud... |
Dan Taylor
New member
Username: Dt5428
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 69.14.157.216
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 06:40 pm: | |
I like the idea of two props. The "H" design sounds good with a pneumatic tire engaging the rear wheels of the atv and a gear on the side of the pneumatic tire which would drive the splined shaft of the prop drive shaft.You could use the "H" member to weld a couple of bearing or bushing supports for the prop drive shaft.You could engage the "H" member along the same lines as a tractor uses for raising or lowering the mower deck or plow blade.
Later,Dan |
(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 161.88.255.140
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 07:14 am: | |
This is roughly the way i want to add propellers to my max II some day. |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:05 am: | |
Doug, I wondered about the centerline also. I suppose the paddles wouldn't necessarily have to extend to the centerline but it seems like a waste to not use as much paddle as possible. It may also be that when braking into the turn, the non moving paddle will act as a brake, much as the tires do, providing additional pivot into the turn. I am thinking pneumatic tires. Rubber to rubber, as well as a large circumference should provide some cushioning for the aggressive tread of the atv. It should also provide some slip when bumping underwater obstacles to prevent damage. Props seem like they would make for a much neater package. I have concerns about the effects of cavitation upon the efficiency of the props if theye're mounted behind the atv wheels. I'm also not sure they'll provide the desired amount of propulsion. Those concerns stem from reading previous posts about using trolling motors. I doublt we can generate any more thrust from a friction drive prop than we can from a trolling motor. Let's keep popping at this. We'll eventually hit on it. |
Douglas MacCullagh
New member
Username: Dougmac
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.160.134.228
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:50 pm: | |
Fredryck, The way to deal with cavitation is propeller pitch and propeller depth. Unless we want to design a surface-piercing prop? The problem with getting the prop deeper is it will hit bottom when driving in, and could could hit pulling out, of the water. And in the Argo it will be too close to the surface. Unless - Every see a model of the WW2 German Schwimwagen amphibious staff car? The prop was mounted on a hinged bracket. When it was down it engaged a dog clutch and prop thrust held the joint tight. We might do something like that. Use the H rig for power. Mount the prop on an arm (maybe with yet another chain drive). When it is down use some kind of dog clutch to engage the drive. If it hits something it just swings clear. Pull the props up before coming out of the water and use the tires to climb up. The problem is the fancier we get with this the more complex it becomes, and the heavier. What do you think? |
Jerry R. Nuss
Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 33
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 66.20.225.28
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:06 pm: | |
Cavitation should not be a problem on the friction driven propellers because they will never spin fast enough to vaporize the water. The thrust will be dependent upon the size diameter and pitch and numer of blades on the prop. How much propulsion do people want? Additional maneuverabilty or increased speed? For efficiency an outboat may still be the best choice over a bunch of additional added on pieces especially sinc the tires would need to be turning to drive the systems.
On the old military style "Ducks" do the wheels retract? |
Dave Keeso
Junior Member
Username: Argomag
Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.194.78.126
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:45 pm: | |
I am by no means a mechanic or engineer, or even able to fab up something like above, but I really think that you guys are on to something here. I have been reading the posts on this board for just over 2 years now and the water travel topic always pops up again. I think that all your ideas are very practical and even very doable with the right equipment and supplies to do so. |
Dan Taylor
New member
Username: Dt5428
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 12.40.178.65
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 09:01 pm: | |
I like the drawing of the dual props but I think the drive tires should engage the aatv on the tire tread instead of on the sides.This would give you some play when engaging the drive tires also you might cause a flat when engaged on the sidewalls.I don't think wash out would be a problem. The only major problem with this idea is trial and error with drive tire size,prop size and gearing.I have a trolling motor installed on our Argo with remote operations but am not impressed with the performance.One other thing we might consider is to hing the straight piece coming out of the receiver so that it could be stowed in the upright position when traveling to and from the water. Maybe a self locking pin that would lock when lowered and maybe manual on the way up.I also no reason this could not be made mostly out of aluminum to keep the weight down.I would think you could build something like this for a couple of hundred bucks or cheaper if you had some of the supplies laying around.Maybe find some old props at a yard sale or marina.
Later,Dan
Later,Dan |
Larry Houghton (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.129.40.138
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 09:03 pm: | |
Looks like what you have there should work good. You will still have the tires pushing as well. The easiest way to find is build it and see how it works. Your first build when you are done you might see something that could be different but I can't see anything wrong with this. |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 01:29 am: | |
Maybe something that hinges at the back of the machine with a spring similiar to that of a garage door or a mousetrap. If contact is to be to the inside wall of the rear wheel, then perhaps it would be mounted at an angle so that at the end of the swing, final contact would be in the proper position with pressure applied both in a downward and outward motion. This would make separate directions to engage unneccessary. Also, looking at my earlier posted design, I can see where it might be possible to delete the axle running the full breadth of the vehicle by mounting the friction tire and a, let's say a 6", paddle in a set of forks, much like those of a bicycle, hinged to rotate down and engage the rear tire. The same configuration might even be easier to use with a prop and be lighter and less cumbersome. If the prop angle could be adjusted up and down, along with the height of the pivot point or hinge attaching to the machine, then it could be used with a variety of machines and tire sizes. I guess the friction wheel and worm gear would share the same axle. I see the disection of an old trolling motor in my future. Keep it rolling. I want to hear more! |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 13
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:31 am: | |
Here's one to try on for size. What I want to know, is who's gonna build mine? Lol! |
Douglas MacCullagh
New member
Username: Dougmac
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.160.134.228
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 05:52 pm: | |
Fredryck, I think you're on to something! The only concern is the prop being so close to the surface it draws in air. Something like that could even clamp onto the outboard bracket instead of the hitch receiver. Nice job! And Jerry, no, the old DUKW tires did not retract. 6 wheel drive ashore, propeller and rudder in the water. The prop had a long shaft off of a PTO. What the DUKW did have was central air pressure control. The driver could lower the air pressure in all 6 tires for sand, raise it again for pavement, and all from the driver's seat. There have been times I wished I could do that. And I am looking for a little more speed and a lot more control. I grew up in sailboats, so slow speed does not bother me. Waiting for the amphib to turn, that bothers me. |
Mark D. Gray
Junior Member
Username: Newt
Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 161.88.255.140
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:49 am: | |
Fredryck
Now your on to something ! This looks much better than the propeller unit that i drew up, and lighter too. A spring to apply pressure on the tiers might help.
Two 45 degree bevel gears transferring the power from the friction tire to the propeller would give you a 1 to 1 ratio. In other words , The RPM's the friction tire was turning would be equal to the propeller RPM's. The smaller the friction tire you could make work ; the faster the Propeller RPM's would be. using this type of set up on an AATV with 23" tiers and a friction tire that was 8" your ratio would be Propeller 2.887 rpm's to 1 rpm of the AATV back tire.
That means that if your AATV was going 15 miles per hour the propeller rpm's would be 626.5
Depending on the pitch of the propeller you use will make a difference too. On ski boats 13 pitch propellers are common (because they pull a lot ) and speed boats use 24 pitch or higher. I think that an AATV is more like a ski boat. You will never plain out and break speed records, but you should be able to gain some speed. I think the best part is being able to turn much better, and back up too. What do you think ? |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 10:31 pm: | |
I ran across this while doing a little trolling motor research. Thought you guys might be interested. It's a trolling motor designed to be mounted on an outboard or I/O. Seems to have a fair amount of thrust. If nothing more than a lightweight source of additional swimming speed was desired, this might be the ticket.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=134983 |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 08:32 am: | |
Mark, without actually doing the math, you're probably right with your figures. While one would think that the highest rpm along with the greatest amount of pitch would be desirable, I wonder if there is a pitch/rpm combination that would be too much for the friction drive. There might be limitations to the amount of torgue that can be derived from the friction mating of the two tires. We certainly don't want to wear holes in our rear tires. I thought 8" was a good tire size also. That may be the smallest diameter tire large enough to engage at least two of the tread protrusions at once. Since our forked unit is mounted upon a spring loaded hinge, for purposes of noise, wear and tear, thrust efficiency, etc., I'm sure we don't want the unit subjected to the equivilant of a constant row of speed bumps. Okay, so our gears are probably nylon. Now are they open and mounted on brackets off the forks or are they encased in some kind of torpedo shaped body? And if so, where are we finding scrap or replacement parts to fabricate this. Everybody put on their thinking caps! |
Douglas MacCullagh
New member
Username: Dougmac
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.160.134.228
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:57 am: | |
Fredryck, my only problem with any style trolling motor is the power it needs. I would not want to run it off of the main battery, and carrying and caring for a second battery is a bother. And a lot of weight to carry in the water. Now, if the tranny had a PTO that could power something, like a generator for the trolling motor, it would make more sense. That Briggs engine puts out a lot of power, but in the water it never develops full power and a lot of what it does generate is wasted in splashing. That's why I like the friction drive idea - makes better use of the engine. |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:50 am: | |
Just thought of something. Keeping in mind how in a turn while swimming the machine tends to dip on the thrust side, I wonder if there is cause for concern in the application of too much thrust. Will the dipping motion on the drive side be exaggerated by the additional thrust? Or, seeing as we're trying to shove a not very aquadynamic tub through the water, will the rear end try to rise up out of lack of anywhere else to go as foward motion is partially prevented by water resistance? Someone with experience in using an outboard might have some valuable input into how the handling qualities are and may be affected by what we're talking about. |
liflod
Member
Username: Liflod
Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 65.209.67.214
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:39 am: | |
Cheap surplus bevel gears. Try this link.
http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cfm?terms=7538&cartLogFrom=Search
The item # is 33723 if the whole link doesn't work. |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 03:01 pm: | |
Ok, so the gear is keyed and retained along side the friction drive tire on the same axle so that both spin at the same time and the pinion and propellor are similiarly affixed together at 90 degrees so that the gear and pinion engage. A mechanical clutch is replaced by the engagment/disengagement of the friction tire. I guess a replacement lawnmower wheel for a self propelled mower might be keyable to an axle mounted on bearings. I'll have to check Home Depot tomorrow unless someone's already familiar with what's available. We also need to figure out how to affix a propellor to the end of the axle sporting the pinion gear. It has to be universal enough so that a counter rotating prop can be used on one side as I like the idea of protecting the prop by it being on the inner side of the friction wheel. |
david berger
Intermediate Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 172.171.251.136
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 02:35 pm: | |
dont worry thrust is controled by the users throtle hand, it won't tip to much |
Fredryck T. Macko
Junior Member
Username: Ftmacko
Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.45.133.13
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 05:18 pm: | |
Woa! I just got some real time experience on the river. I wasn't ready for what happens when you hit an underwater stump while trucking along. The stump ended up being useful for getting back into the machine after being thrown out. Wish somebody had gotten that on camera. America's Funniest Video's wouldn't even have bothered to have the audience vote. They could of just went ahead and cut me my check. I'd won that thing hands down. But seriously, now that I'm dry and have had a chance to ponder this, I'm quite sure that the more thrust that can be generated by lower tire speeds is a "good thing"! I've deducted this to be a statement of fact in light of my recently acquired knowledge that high tire speed in stump and log ridden water is a "bad thing". I'm also more aware of the need to easily engage and disengage the prop and to provide as much protection as possible to the gearing and prop itself. Are any of the trolling motors powered by motors not built into the submerged casing? Anybody know? Oh, and less I forget, my thanks for the timely advice from David "Fish" Berger! |
david berger
Intermediate Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 61
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 172.134.17.144
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 10:59 am: | |
What? it dident tip from throtleing too high,
fast water n obsticles wether above or below spells disaster about every time!
i think it was a few years ago when someones story about brakeing threw ice with fairly fast water under it caused the machine to be pulled under the ice and gone! poof just like that!
(i figure it had smaller tires on it ) |
Brad Morcom
New member
Username: Stihl1
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 24.177.157.87
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 12:39 am: | |
How about using water pumps powered by your engine, I think it would be easier and you dont have props to damage. |
Larry (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.74.107.122
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 09:58 pm: | |
How about 90 degree gearbox running from engine to straight back. Have straight shaft go out the back and stick out just a couple inches. Kinda like pto on tractor. Use a axle bearing to seal it. Make a prop that is easily removable and put it on in the water and take it off on land. Could have it clutched or running all the time. Steering might be wheels mounted backward.(so normal swimming wouldnt swim forward but would in reverse) Have machine in reverse gear. Gas with left and it seems it would turn left. vise versa. If that dont work then might have to use rudder behind prop. Maybe cable operated for drivers seat controlable. Sound good to me. What you guys think? |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 276
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 172.129.248.50
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:22 am: | |
i lean twards the jet pump thing a little more but i think your still a genious larry,
im thinking a 90* gear box mught gear down but our prop may require gearing up conciderably,
props even encloased in a housing as a jet pump still require high rpm rate, as aposed to available rpm's from current aatv powereplants.
just for funn,anyone think altenator on engine and electric prop or electric jet pump would work? |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 107
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 209.226.250.27
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:39 pm: | |
At the boat show last month I saw twin high out- put 24 volt trolling motors designed to bolt to the top of the anti-cavitation plate. Apparently they put out many times the thrust of ordinary elec. trolling motors-- but they were heavy. Minni Kotta I think. W Philip Cox |
Larry Wright
Member
Username: Xljimmy
Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.74.107.122
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:00 pm: | |
I get a catalog from surplus center. Also has web site http://www.surpluscenter.com/ . They have 90* boxes with differant ratios. If it is slow bigger prop. might work but smaller the better I see it. Did see a f/n/r 90* gearbox with a shifter. That would be ideal.
Also, for machines with Bakerhill tranny without reverse. You have the shaft between calipers. Put pulley/sprocket there and use engine variable speed/clutch for your rear pto.
I saw site once that puts jetski jetdrives on johnboats. Motor and all. You wouldnt have room though with frame and axles in the way at bottom. I think they could only get 20mph with 750cc. Had problems with air cause of flatbottom.
I think it was the wedge with jet drive and if I remember reading it only did 8mph on water. Didnt seem to gain enough to mess with. Maybe why nobody does now?
Electric would be the easiest. If you have manual backup to start them you could run quietly for distances also. Probably 12v so dont have to carry another battery. Really dought it would be much faster then wheels? But wouldnt scare fish as much and dont have to cut body up to see if it would work.
Somebody has to try something so I dont have to. lol |
larry (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.74.107.122
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:33 pm: | |
Brad Morcom
I posted that idea somewhere once and somebody said they had a 5hp waterpump they sat in a rowboat. Had it sucking out of lake and running behind him. In water he said it hardly did anything but he said when it sprayed in air out back it was alittle better but still not good. |
Larry Wright
Member
Username: Xljimmy
Post Number: 43
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.74.107.122
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:14 pm: | |
I thought of another idea last night while trying to sleep. Same 90* gearbox idea but duals and each running off of middle or rear axle. One on each side. Chain or belt but belt could be clutched with idler like most mower decks. You could operate aatv like ussual for turning, and have reverse if machine has it. Have props held on with pin so you can take them off easy. Maybe have large removable cage around back for prop protection While climbing out of water.
Then back to rpm. Axle rpm at 30mph with 65"diameter tire is only around 500rpm. Have to gear it up. Someone with a little outboard needs to turn engine over one time counting prop turns to see ratio. Will also need outboards top rpm. I have alittle 1hp tanaka but at my parents house. I bet 2000 max rpm would work. |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 110
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.208.194.52
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 08:21 pm: | |
Larry--Where is this 65inch tire??? That's 5foot 5 inches. The tire would be taller than my wife. I also remember the guy who tested the waterpump on a boat. HE posted pictures of his sister in law getting soaked when a pipe broke. I,m still smiling! W. Philip Cox |
Larry Wright
Member
Username: Xljimmy
Post Number: 46
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.208.82.81
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 08:38 pm: | |
lol
The tire is circumference. I am sorry said diameter. I didnt actually measure but i believe the old ballon tire were 65".
I checked my little tanaka 1hp and it spin 6500 with roughly 2:1 ratio with prop. So prop runs around 3250. If anybody had a fourstroke outboard please let me know on the ratio of it. I am curious to know. I bet there is a prop that would work but need to know the pitch and diameter to work best at slower speed.
Larry |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 114
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.208.194.52
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:37 pm: | |
Checked out Bass Pro's site. Engine mount trolling motors are available up to 220 LBs. thrust @36 volts. Smaller ones in 12,24 or 36 volts. Could they be mounted on an aluminum plate and attached to the hitch. Would they work if the prop was slightly higher than the bottom of the machine/ I see they have a remote to turn on and off and to adjust speed. Later W.Philip Cox  |
Larry Wright
Member
Username: Xljimmy
Post Number: 47
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.208.82.81
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 10:54 pm: | |
WOW Philip, Those are sweet looking.
Somebody want to buy them for me, I will post the results. lol
I'll have to check that site out.
Larry |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 83
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:45 pm: | |
We just finished our first tests of a new "jet wheel" reactive propulsion device for use on any amphibious vehicle. It will be especially useful on 6x6 or 8x8's with tracks. It gives excellent control , provides good speed forward or reverse, installs in 30 seconds and requires no vehicle modifications. Can fit any tire size, and is light weight. Check out the link http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7509391836542872116&hl=en-CA |
Bud
Advanced Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 08:46 am: | |
Ray Kohls: Can you provide specifics on this product? What it consists of, pricing, etc.?
I am looking for a way to increase water speed in my Max II.
Thanks,
Bud |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 91
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
Bud, thanks for your interest. Right now the product is in development so it's not for sale. We still need to do more testing. If you have been following my posts my goal is 10 mph, and we are not there yet. As the video shows we couldn't apply more thrust to the Frontier, as it was taking on water. I don't know if we will ever reach that speed but you never know.
The Jet Wheel is very robust, it is not meant for land travel, however we did run over some rocks, gravel etc to simulate coming out or going into the water. It will provide that extra thrust you need when you are exiting the water and trying to climb up the bank. It will be excellent for the people who run tracks in the water, for as we know you don't get much speed out of them. It also gives excellent directional control in either forward or reverse. I think it will really work well as is on the Max II, because of the rear engine location, as the bow is higher in the water.
Bud it works like a "jet pump", currently it's fabricated out of aluminum, but to bring the price down will probably end up a "roto-moulded" product made out of nylon, or similar tough material.
If we bring it to market, if Richard approved the product I would probably sell it through him or via an ad like "Do Ya Dare" dual thrusters.
We are also working on a "dual prop" arrangement that will have adjustable trim, we should have some videos in a couple of weeks, stay tuned. |
Eddie L. Beddingfield
Intermediate Member
Username: Argo2003
Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 03:47 pm: | |
My own opinion on water travel is 3-4 mph is fast enough,If you need all the add on things you probably need a boat.With everything added on you are taking away some of the land performance(weight,ground clearance,length,width). |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 93
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 06:19 pm: | |
Well Eddie, each to his own. I found that I would like a little more water speed the first time I went into a river. It didn't look like there was much current, but it was a scary ride, completely out of control. Bouncing off the banks was not what I planned on. |
Goldhunter_2
Junior Member
Username: Goldhunter_2
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 08:27 pm: | |
eddie,
I can see what you mean about the clearance or having to remove the system each time to travel BUT the ability to get at least 10mph in the water is Long over due! I am just getting back int AATV's but one reason I sold my old hustler is it just took to long to cross larger deep water spots. I have one place I go now that I will using using a AATV that the deep water crossing at norrowest spot is around 1000 yards before I get into the shallow water /marsh/ dry islands ..... my point is tat a product like this would be very usefully to some people so Ray comment "to each his own" is good it is basically a option just liek engine size etc.. |
Eddie L. Beddingfield
Intermediate Member
Username: Argo2003
Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 08:51 pm: | |
Maybe someone needs to adapt tires and wheels to a jet ski.Probably wouldnt be real good in water or on land either.I stated it was my opinion,I myself am not going to add a bunch of stuff just to get a little more WATER speed. |
Goldhunter_2
Junior Member
Username: Goldhunter_2
Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 10:27 pm: | |
They actual have a 4 wheeler/jetski hybrid has good speed both land and water but not the sane animal and aatv
I wasn't attacking you please don't take it that way, My opinion was just stating that others may have a need or want for that type option just like some want bigger engines or tracks etc. I know that was one of the big reasons I got out of AATV's a few years back and it be nice to not have to carry the AATV on the boat to cross the deep water in a reasonable time frame |
Jeff bar
Member
Username: Argo8x8
Post Number: 48
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 09:38 pm: | |
Goldhunter, got any photos of the jet-ski-atv. I would love to see it, thanks
Jeff Bar |
Goldhunter_2
Member
Username: Goldhunter_2
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 10:22 pm: | |
well here is a video and the ending shows what I guess we would have to call it a AATV 
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/471028/quadski/ |
Steve Chansler
New member
Username: Newatver
Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 07:42 pm: | |
What a video, I am sending it in for posting |
Restoration of older ATV's