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ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: | 
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ok I want to start a discussion on water. I had the Attex at Humphrey with the trolling motors. That idea, by the way, has been retired. My new idea is a couple of cold rolled pieces of 1" steel mounted into bearings, sticking out the back with props. One for each side, driven by chain and an extra sprocket on the rear axles. Maybe with a gear box up by the shafts to really get them turning. Anyone know of a gear box that would work? |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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I LIKE THE DIRECTION YOUR GOIN IN BUT THINK ABOUT MAYBE USEING A WEED EATER MOTER, HEH HEH
THE TROLING MOTERS COULD BE MOUNTED WITHOUT THE SHAFTS AS MOTERS ONLY THREW THE BODY IN MUCH THE SAME WAY AS YOU HAVE DISCRIBED ALSO,
(FOOD FOR THOUGHT) |
John Dooler
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Try an old Garden tractor, my old MTD has two small right angle gear boxes one for the mower deck and one for the drive from the engine. They are grease filled not oil filled so orientation of the gear box should not be a problem. |
ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Dave, the trolling motors just don't have the wallop I'm looking for. The gear box off an old mower is a good idea. And mounting should'nt be a problem. The one problem my Attex does have is that it is very heavy in the back, so in the water it rides like a wheelie. Lately I have been testing with different ways to level the machine out in the water. So far the best I could do were the inflatable bags from my kayak tied on to the back of the machine. I think leveling out will really help in getting through the water. That is one thing I liked about the Argo, with the engine in the front, it seemes to ride better in the water, and then grab the shore better once it hits land.
Anyone know of a good website with gearboxes? |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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A BRICK OR TWO MADE OF LEAD DOWN ON THE FRAIM MAY HELP BALLENCE YOUR ATTEX,
HAVE THOUGHT OF DOIN THAT TO MY MAX II TO KEEP THE FROUNT DOWN,
(I DON'T WHEIGH ENOPH) |
liflod (Liflod)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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How about a large diameter piece of plastic pipe with end caps mounted on the back of the machine for floatation? It would double as storage if the caps screw off. Are you going to get the axles to drive the prop or use antoher engine? How about a horizontal shaft little briggs on top of the engine cover driving a shaft mounted behingd the Attex engine connected by belts and pulleys or sprockets and chains. |
ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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I Like the plastic pipe idea, that would fit nice around the back. As far as the props, the idea was to add sprockets to the existing rear axles, run a chain up to a gear box, and have seperate shafts out the back for each side. That way you can turn in the water by powering the indivdual sides. I don't want to add another small engine, just for the sake of weight. Maybe with the right kind of gear box I can really get those props flying. |
John Kevin Maiolo (Johnmaiolo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Why not buy parts from a used Hustler or SPD Wedge and install jet drive? It worked for those machines and would give you the power you are looking for. |
bigkodiak
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Dave
To say you don't weigh enough is an understatement. I don't think you weigh as much as the 2 lead bars you are contemplating mounting.
The one problem with weighing the front of the machine in the water is this. DRAG. The more of the machine that is out of the water will decrease drag, and thereby increasing speed. The downside to that is that if the hull is too far out of the water it will become unstable. Use a "V" bottom boat as an example.
I like the thought of the mower gearbox.
Russ |
ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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It's funny you mention jet propulsion, because if you look back in the discussion board history, I brought this up once before. I got alot of grief about trying to run a jet system in muddy water. I actually thought it was a viable solution, but I think I'm going with the props idea run off the existing engine. The premise is, light in the water and light on land. I am a firm believer that a machine is less likely to hang up in the mud if it doesn't "bog" down due to lbs. It is the difference between trying to torque through a mud hole at low speed, versus skipping across the top at full throttle. As I learned to drive my Attex, I found that it succeeded in traversing mud at full tilt. |
Reed Wilson
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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I bought a used Max IV which the previous owner had tried to put a prop on the back. It was hooked to a gear box also on the back and driven by a chain and sprocket from the left rear wheel. I didn't see it hooked up completely, but the guy said he never could get it to work. I just wonder if you would have to have the prop below the body to make it effective in water. Then it would hang up in the shallows or on land, so you would need to be able to raise it. There's got to be a better way.... |
bigkodiak
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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the problem with running a prop through the rear axle is that you need to get the prop to spin fast enough to make it work. I have no clue how many RPM's it would require the prop to turn in order to make it work but that could be found by looking at any out board motor.
After finding the correct RPM, work out a gear ratio for a sprocket to mount the rear axle.
This of course is only in theory and I have no clue if it would actually work.
Russ |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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BIGKODIAK,
HI RUSS,
YAH I WAS THINKING ON THE LEAD FOR STABLITY IN THE WATER AS THERE A LITTLE CORKY,
ALSO WHEN CLIMBING LOGS I'D LIKE TO GET THE FROUNT TO DROP A LITTLE EASYER,
BUT NOT AS FAST AS A BIGFOOT, HEH HEH |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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You can pick up an old outboard engine almost anywhere. NObody said it had to work. Get it running again, and stick it on the back. Extend the tiller think or whatever it is called so you can reach it from the front, and go. I honestly think that the added engine for water is a waste of time. The outboard is a better way to go. I really dont feel comfortable going very far in the argo in water. It is really tippy and when you have the max capacity of people in it, it feels like it is going to flip. |
tpike
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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I haven't read this thread much but what about
using one of those axel extensions (for adding and extra wheel/tire. If you need more floatation add it on the end then install removable paddles (like a paddlewheel). You can get the floatation you want to a level where the upper paddles are above the water. Kind of primative (even cheesy) but it is the easiest way to get the drive/steering/floatation integrated. It will also give you more lateral stability.
Tom |
bigkodiak
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Tom
The problem with adding extra floatation like that is that it also makes the machine that much wider. wider is better theory doesn't always work, especially in the woods.
Russ |
John Slagel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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I tried mounting an electric trolling motor, one of the ones made to mount to a large outboard prop, to my hitch. It fit perfect and was an easy install.
HOWEVER... it did nothing in the water... either the prop was too small, or tucked into the body too far, so it couldn't get enough water, and just cavitated.
I think to make it work, you'd need to be able to lower it under the body of the ATV, and then it would just bump into things. |
ej warden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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John,
I also tried the trolling motors. Some of the readers might remember my Attex from Humphrey. We mounted 2 trolling motors on 2x4's extended out the back to reduce the cavitation (is that a word?), but it just didn't have the "umph". Currently the idea we are working on is the one I described at the top of this thread. This project will have to wait for spring, because right now in western NY the Attex is busy plowing. I will worry about water when it isn't frozen. |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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john,you will have to lower your motor,just enough to getbelow your hull/body.the down side is if you mount it before you get to where you are going you might get hung up on dry land.if you can get it to where you slide the motor in and out of your hitch,i think that would work.
me personally,i used a 30 lb. thrust transom mount motor/a thirty inch shaft.it won't pull a skier but it will move the argo fairly well. |
Larry Noworyta (Larry)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Water travel in a AATV has always been slow and I've always tried to think of ways to improve the speed, like so many have done on previous discussions. I had a Attex Chief back in the early seventies that seemed to have decent water speed for a AATV, my 99 MaxII just likes to churn up the water with very little water speed.
I,d like to be able to traverse a body of water and not have people on canoes or row boats pass me up along the way! I'm not too crazy about the trolling motor idea, don't care for any thing extra hanging off the back end. Jet drive sounds great, but where the heck are you going to fit it inside a Max? Built on props seem like more mechanical problems and some type of paddle system attached to the wheels would just churn more water.
Sooo ----- Here's my idea for a different water propulsion system I thought of that would be easier to install, just want to run it by all of you to see if it could work. I was wondering if one could modify the exhaust with a diverter valve, the valve set one way would send all exhaust gases through the muffler when driving on land, turn it the other way and all the exhaust would bypass the muffler and be exhausted directly out a pipe through the body just below the trailer hitch. I'm not sure if it would be enough pressure to propel you any faster through the water and I would think the water would muffle the engine noise. You could steer using the drive to the left or right wheels or pull the sticks to neutral and throttle the engine for maximum exhaust. I'm sure if the engine backfired it would be a major problem unless some kind of check valve was installed.
Well there's my idea, does it sound like it might work or a waste of time, just something to think about! |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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I think that using the exhaust would be a good idea, but their isn't near enough thrust from the exhaust to even budge the argo (or max) TO get even the slightest bit of thrust, you would have to have the throttle wide opened and even then, you would be lucky if it would move. Because the hull is more like a displacement hull (pushes instead of cuts like a boat) the starting force needed is too high.
If you found a way to extend the back axle through the frame in the ARGO (or max) and then attached a shaft that somehow runs on a gear or something, at then cut a small hole in the body and it could even come out of the trailor hitch hole. SOmething like that would be a bit more practical. That is , if you can engineer it so it would actually work. The ARGO wasn't designed to really run through super deep water in currents or anything. Just to cross small bodies of water. |
Kevin Watson (Kevin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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These guys could probably help you ...
http://www.go-devil.com/ |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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larry,to use JUST the exhaust,i thiink you would be wasting your time.i don't think you'd get any better propulsion than you have right now.in fact i'd be willing to bet less.but you would have one hell of a bubble machine.i don't think you will put out enough volume of air pressure to move you.now if you could rig it up to go to some kind of holding tank,like a compresser,or an air tank.so you could release a massive amount of pressure,then you might have something.
and remember this, rowboats and canoes are designed to go through the water with little or no resistance.these wonderful toys we own are primarily designed for land travel with the ability hit the water secondary.( just watch a canoe on land...i bet you will be the one passing them up).we are not streamlined enough.it not so much the weight, as it is the mass you are trying to move.i use a 30lb thrust trolling motor on my bigfoot,and can actually move faster(and quietter)than i do with the tires. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Their must be an echo on this board. Im pretty sure I said almost the same thing earlier.
their isn't near enough thrust from the exhaust to even budge the argo (or max) TO get even the slightest bit of thrust, you would have to have the throttle wide opened and even then, you would be lucky if it would move. Because the hull is more like a displacement hull (pushes instead of cuts like a boat) the starting force needed is too high.
Again as you said Mike, we are not streamlined enough to move through like a boat or canoe. We can go through water, like a boat, but I wouldn't consider buying an argo in place of a boat even if its in a small lake. I personally an not overly comfortable with the seemingly tippy ARGO in water expecially when its loaded down. The slightest movement jolts the whole thing to one side and you feel as though you are going to swamp. I can only imagine what its like with an outboard on the back- you turn the outboard and teh whole thing starts lunging to one side and down. I don't know I I like that idea. Then again, I have never had an outboard on the back but I think that this is the best means of additional propulsion if you require a bit more thrust in water. Otherwise, lets just go with the idea that we can get to where other vehicles can't under most cercumstances, and THe only real obstacle we can't traverse as easily is rocky terrain where their are large rocks to climb. This is where you need a vehicle like a hummer or something. THe ARGOs are riged machines so when you go over a large rock and down or something, you pivot over the object and it drops down hard. Have you ever tried driving on a shoreline that is all rocks, like the round ones that would fit inside the wheels on our machines, they bounce all over the place and it is not a smooth ride. This is where a different vehicle may be more suited. However, when it comes to the majority of terrain, the ARGO by far dominates that area (okay, max too although I don't really know much about them.) |
mike martindale (Wetsu)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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sorry david,i didn't mean to be a copy poster.but yours wasn't up yet.going through the water with a motor is really not that bad.it's when you stand up to cast your rod that it gets a little weird.now keep in mind i'm just using a trolling motor,and i can't pull a skier or anything(not that i wouldn't try)but you can actually go better with with a prop than you can with them tires.and if the rocks aren't TO big they can be overtaken as well.true,they don't do as well as a jeep,or hummer.but some can be conquered.this is where slooooow is better than fast.and if there are to many rocks on shore,hit the surf.
and since i bought my bigfoot...my boat has sat waiting for me to take it out.i finally sold it,and for now all i use is the argo for fishing.the best thing about it is i don't need to wait in line at the boat ramp.and just the looks i get from them anglers,when i drive past them,is priceless. |
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