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George Sparks
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: | 
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Which bearings?? Inside or outside?? Let me know and I will think about it. (20 Years in power transmission). |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Craig, If you are breaking bearing collars, It is probably bad sprockets or your chains are too tight. |
George Sparks
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Craig. I know you said that you are breaking the cam off of your bearings. Not the steel eccentric collar. This has to be true because of the metals and tempering processes that are used in their manufacture. So again. Are you breaking the inside or outside bearing cams? If you will let me know I beleive that I may be able, ignorant as I am, to help you address "all" of the potential reasons why this may be happening. Also, are the breaks on the same axle? |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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George, If I remember right, Craig has an older (pre March 1995) Max II (I think an '85 maybe) that has the old style (smaller & less strong) single outside bearing - (the inside part of the axle uses a brass aloy bushing). I'm sure you are right about the part of the bearing that is breaking (I say bearing collars, but should say bearing collar anchor point).
I too, would be interested in your assessment. Don't know that it changes anything, but the older machines (1995 and earlier) have a drum/band brake rather than the disk brake that is on the newer (late 1995 and after) max. |
Tim Wafer (Iflyrctoo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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George
I'm curious about the bearing problem too. I bought my 1996 Max IV used and when I got it I know more than half of the bearings were broken. Both inside and outside. They were broken at the eccentric cam that the collar locks onto. Several had the collar floating loose on the shaft. The chains were definitely not tight when I got it but cant say for sure what happened in its previous life. I never got a satisfactory reason for this. I replaced them all and added tracks shortly thereafter along with the outer bearing cages and extra bearings. I haven't noticed any breaks as of yet (about 200 hours use).
My other concern is greasing bearings in these 2 piece flanges. I definitely don't believe that applying grease to the zerk fitting in the flange gets any appreciable amount of grease into the bearing. Most escapes between the flanges. I have attempted to seal between the flanges by different means but to no avail. I have aligned the lube holes in the outer race with the zerks in the flange also but still don't believe that did any good either. Do you have any suggestions?
Tim |
MaxRules (Brandon_price)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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None of the bearings on my Max have ever been broken. It must be tight chains that are causing broken collars. I am very careful not to over tighten my chains because that just makes them stretch more. I have put those bearings through all the abuse I can dish out. My bent axle did not even hurt the bearing.
Tim, grease is not supposed to come out of the flanges. It never comes out on my Max unless you blow the seals out of the bearing. The grease zerk does lube the bearing well. On my old bearings, 5 pumps of grease blew out the seal. I put 4 in another, spun it around, and busted it in half and it did have plenty of grease in it.
Ride it like you stole it.
MaxRules |
Tim Wafer (Iflyrctoo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Brandon
I'm talking about the flanges that hold the bearings not the bearing seal. I could pump 10 tubes of grease in mine and I bet less that a half a thimble full gets inside the races.
Tim |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Tim,
IMO, if you are getting a glob of grease on the outer edge of your flanges, your bearing bolts are unevenly tightened or you have something (grain of sand, dust, etc.) between the flanges that is holding them apart. This is assuminjg of course that your flanges have not been bent or otherwise damaged. I can't tell you if grease is getting into the bearing from the flange cavity, but on my machines and those I service, the only grease that comes out after I have the bearing bolts all equally tight (at about 20 ft lbs of torque) is at the hole in the inside of the flange where the axle goes through. I think it is going into the bearing and coming out the seal.
If I have a glob of grease coming out on the outer edge of a flange, I try tightening the bolts on both sides of the glob to 22 Ft lbs torque. If that does not stop the escape of grease, I loosen all the bolts and tighten the bolt on both sides of the glob first- if 22 ft lbs won't stop the grease from escaping, I take the flanges apart and clean them up. In theory, a tiny bead of silocone right on the edge (just off the flat part that bolts together) might seal the flanges together so uniform tightness isn't so critical. I think I have always been able to stop the glob from escaping.
I service the bearing bolts on every machine that I sell because even brand new machines straight from the factory will have unevenly tightened bearing bolts (I think they use an air wrench going from bolt to bolt once and don't take the time to go back over the bolts to tighten then gradually and to be sure they are all of uniform tightness). The other thing that happens, I think, is the neoprene gasket between the body and the flanges compresses just a little and what was tight, loosens.
This is why I encourage everyone, whose machine is taking on water, to check the bearing bolts. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Tim,
IMO, if you are getting a glob of grease on the outer edge of your flanges, your bearing bolts are unevenly tightened or you have something (grain of sand, dust, etc.) between the flanges that is holding them apart. This is assuminjg of course that your flanges have not been bent or otherwise damaged. I can't tell you if grease is getting into the bearing from the flange cavity, but on my machines and those I service, the only grease that comes out after I have the bearing bolts all equally tight (at about 20 ft lbs of torque) is at the hole in the inside of the flange where the axle goes through. I think it is going into the bearing and coming out the seal.
If I have a glob of grease coming out on the outer edge of a flange, I try tightening the bolts on both sides of the glob to 22 Ft lbs torque. If that does not stop the escape of grease, I loosen all the bolts and tighten the bolt on both sides of the glob first- if 22 ft lbs won't stop the grease from escaping, I take the flanges apart and clean them up. In theory, a tiny bead of silocone right on the edge (just off the flat part that bolts together) might seal the flanges together so uniform tightness isn't so critical. I think I have always been able to stop the glob from escaping.
I service the bearing bolts on every machine that I sell because even brand new machines straight from the factory will have unevenly tightened bearing bolts (I think they use an air wrench going from bolt to bolt once and don't take the time to go back over the bolts to tighten then gradually and to be sure they are all of uniform tightness). The other thing that happens, I think, is the neoprene gasket between the body and the flanges compresses just a little and what was tight, loosens.
This is why I encourage everyone, whose machine is taking on water, to check the bearing bolts. |
Tim Wafer (Iflyrctoo)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I?m not saying I doubt anyone?s word but in my
experience with bearings mounted in this type
flange, little or no grease enters the actual
bearing. This is not limited to my experience with
the Max alone. I have worked on lots of farm and
other equipment including other 6 wheelers over
the years that have used this type of flange
mounting. I currently manage a rental business
with lots of these type bearings on equipment. I
have replaced flanges and tried several different
types of silicone and gasket sealers to seal the
gap between the flanges. I have experimented with
new bearings and flanges at the bench under ideal
conditions. Occasionally you can get one to seal
well enough to force a little grease into the
bearing but by far the majority are a lost cause.
I would have to see to believe anyone can get 12
out of 12 bearings lubed in this manner. I even
experimented with milling a grove for an o-ring
seal but due to the shape of the flange this
didn?t work either. I would like to hear from
someone who has discovered a foolproof answer to
this problem.
Tim |
George
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Craig,
The most likely culprit is improper axle (shaft) tolerance.
Tim,
It is a poor design originally created for light duty, slow speed applications. However, I believe that the bearings do get some grease. Just remember these bearings really only need a couple of pumps of the grease per year!!!
Fred,
I think you have a very good point about the bolts. Just remember the standard grease fill for this type of bearing is only 35%. By the time you put the retainer, balls and grease inside there is not much room left. I cannot stress enough the importance of not over lubricating these bearings. The grease is simply there to keep down friction not to keep anything out. The triple lip seal does that. If you put in too much grease and "blow" the seal, the bearing is worthless in the operating enviroment that they are in.
Craig,
Try to have your axle checked. I will almost bet that you are having this problem on only one or two axles. Please let me know. |
CCrane2299
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I have a 1999 max IV with a 20hp kohler, 26" tires and solid axles. While climbing over a fallen tree in about 2 feet of water, the left rear inner bearing split in half right where the grove for the balls is located. my chains were ok and other than a 300 pound passenger in the back seat, I have no explanation for this failure. Has anyone else had this happen? Also, I bought replacement bearings at the local bearing house and the locking collars were one piece, not the "cam lock style" that I removed. Is this OK? Thanks for any help. P.S. I ride with about 15-20 quads every Sunday and the Max has impressed them all. Chris |
George Sparks
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Two questions come to mind. (1) Was the crack perpendicular to the ball path or parallel with it? (2) Did you replace the housing?
I would not use the setscrew type bearing. |
matthew smith
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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chris I do not think this was your fault, I think you had a bad bearing when it was formed at the factory,it takes a lot more stress to split a bearing.matt |
ccrane2299
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Thanks for the advice. The bearing split in half along the groove. I did not replace the mounting flanges. I rode again sunday with the new setscrew bearings and they did great. I think I will leave them until I have a problem. Oh yeah, the Max saved the day when the trail was blocked by a large ditch dug to drain a strip pit pond. When I got there (last of course) all the quads were saying "turn around" The Max made a new trail around the hole through thorns and brush. Then the quads could get through without the thorns cutting them. The tortise won the race last Sunday... |
George
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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Craig. I just learned something today from talking to RI. You may have the old style 62MM o.d. bearing. This could be your problem as they will not take the load neccesary. If this is the case I would recommend replacing these with the 72mm o.d. bearing in a triple lip seal.
I am sorry, but I did not know that RI was ignorant enough to use the 62mm bearing. Please post and let me know.
God Bless,
George |
George
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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The problem with not replacing the flanges is that any warpage will creat a problem with the bearing be held in proper place with the right amount of play. Also it might create a problem with keeping the flange to body seal watertight and with being able to grease the bearings. the problem with using setscrew bearings is that the contact area of the locking device to the shaft is a lot less than eccentric lock collar and will eventually diminsh ovet time (probably a very short time) this will leaad to premature failure of the inner bearing due to the fact that it will increase the amount of thrust load on it. Not to mention the fact that once it starts to slip it will more than likely wear the shaft. That will probably be okay since I very seriously doubt that you were able to find a triple lip bearing in the setscrew configuration. (Triple lip seals are a must on this application.) If the bearing split in half along the grease groove I would agree that you more than likely just got a bearing that had a groove cut too deep. This sometimes happens due to the fact that I am pretty sure that the supplier that RI uses is not ISO certified. (They buy state side from an import company.) But, if the bearing split along the ball path it could be due to a lot of factors. Not enough grease created galling and weakened the ball path. Remember 52100 steel is tough, but brittle. Improper assembly of unit. ie. collar not locked down properly. Too much movement in axle assembly. (Check your inside bearing to see if it has any play.)
Also load is not always important. If you take one of the bearings out of your Max did you know you could drop it just right and break it? If the problem were an inner bearing it could be simply preloading of the unit. Bearing tolerances are measured in ten thousandths and so are housing tolerances. It is not unusual to get a bearing to the high side of the range and a housing to the low side. Although they are in tolerance they can create a preload or squeezing effect on the bearing. This can result in this type of break. (Although usually it just results in premature failure.)
God Bless,
George |
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