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Edward Mobley
New member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 11:20 am: | 
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I have a serious question, I am contemplating purchasing an Argo. Was looking intitially at the 700 Avenger, then upon looking was advised that the 750 EFI was a better unit. But, that is a pretty steep price tag in reality, so I start looking at the 8x8 Frontier 650.
some of you are up there in elevation so please answer me this, does EFI really make much of a difference where you are at, OR do YOU routinely have issues with your non-EFI machines at your altitude?
Secondly, much has benn made of that smart bit of engineering that Argo did to the Avenger, by bringing the front 2 and rear 2 wheels slightly off the ground so that with a light load, on dry pavement, it actually only pivots on 4 wheels. Has this been applied to the Frontier 8x8 also? Just curious. |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 512
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 08:08 pm: |
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ED, re; the frontier 650-8x8. It is a brand new machine. few people have even seen one. Banana frame? I would sure hope so. what about skid pan? front and rear axle extensions? brake cooling fan? 25" wheels? How much is the price difference between the 8x8 frontier and the 8x8 avenger 26 hp?  |
Len Cater
Intermediate Member
Username: Lcater
Post Number: 78
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 09:18 am: |
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I certainly noticed a significant turning capability on hard surfaces when in the Avenger vs the Conquest. So the raise wheels do benefit on harder surfaces. Not so sure when you are out on a trail. As well tire pressure can affect this as well if you inner tires are too low compared to the outer tires. I can't answer the EFi question. And yes the frontier has the same frame set up. Just some of the add-on are not there. Rear axle bearing extension, skid plate - these would be important if you plan to use a track or travel in rocky trails. With the glowing reports on the new 24" I would not see that as a negative. You only lose 1/2" ground clearance. So, if you plan on running tracks or the trails you are on will be rocky, then the Avenger would be the better model IMHO. |
Edward Mobley
New member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 10:50 pm: |
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I talked to my Argo rep and here is what I got out of it.
1. The price difference is about $2,000 between the Frontier 650 8X8 and the Avenger 700. Given that, the 650 is the better deal for your money, unless you want the EFI. Sticker price is around $14,580 for the 8x8 650.
2. Alot of the dealers are ordering the Avenger with the 24" Argo tires, better water performance. Apparently the difference is just too much to be ignored if you are going to be using it on the water at all. You can manuever with the 24" Argo tires in ways that the 25" tires can not ever hope to. ride quality on land is better too. they say that they are still keeping a set or 2 of the 25" tires and rims onhand just in case, but are ordering the 24s on the units instead.
3. You do have to add the skid plate, and that bigger alternator package.
4. If you get into the bush and life goes to shit, then you still have a back up recoil starter.
5. The 650 8X8 wieghs less in the front end, and therefore is not going to ride so front heavy in the water. It would be interesting to do a little math and figure the horsepower and torque to wieght ratio of both units, just to see what you are getting there. Curiousity. I tend to analyze in thrust to wieght ratios. LOL!!!....
So, for my money it'll be the 650 8X8. Just makes sense. At around $4k less than a 750EFI it just makes sense to an old redneck like myself. |
Edward Mobley
New member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:47 pm: |
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Here are the wieght to horsepower ratios for each of the 3 models in the discussion. The lower the wieght required to be pushed by each the single horsepower obviously being better.
Avenger 750 EFI - 38.54 to 1.0 (1195 divided by 31)
Frontier 650 8X8 - 45.66 to 1.0 (1050 divided by 23)
Avenger 700 8X8 - 45.96 to 1.0 (1195 divided by 26)
Another thing that might need to be considered though. The 24" tires wiegh less than the 25" tires, dropping the wieght of the Avenger by "almost" 200 lbs. My guess is that it would place it at around the Frontier 650 at around 1050 lbs. so, figuring it with those 24" tires the ratios would be;
Avenger 750 EFI - 33.87 to 1.0 (1050 divided by 31)
Avenger 700 8X8 - 40.38 to 1.0 (1050 divided by 26)
Based upon those numbers the 750 EFI sure look good. But in reality, what does this really mean to me? Going up a steep hill it would seem that you are in a much better spot with an avenger w/ 24s vice the avenger w/ 25s. On water I think that this whole discussion is mute.
My head hurts! Ooowwwww..... |
Edward Mobley
New member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 11:52 pm: |
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So, the entire benefit of a 750 EFI could be offset by a fat wife..... LOL! |
GEARHEAD
Advanced Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 09:12 am: |
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EDWARD-This is just my opinion;
I own a AVENGER 700 with the rubber tracks and I wish I had the bigger efi engine.
Loading up the ARGO with kids, hauling trailers, tracks on,the more power the better.
I went on a camping trip with a nice YOUNG fellow who had a EFI and he used less fuel than I did over the course of the 3 days.674cc/CARB to748cc/EFI and he drove his more that weekend!
A skid plate should be mandatory on all ARGO's.
Bearing extensions are a must with tracks.
I tried the 24" ARGO tires on my machine and lost about an 1" of ground clearence and bottomed out more.
In the water the machine floated lower and at full throttle the winch was half under water though it did move a little faster and steered better in the water.I like using a boat motor for extended water excursions.
The tires are soft if you run low pressure but if you hit a bump they bounce so much they don't recover by the time you hit another bump so the machine bounces alot more unless you run more pressure thus defeating the purpose of softer ride.
If I were buying a new one
AVENGER EFI is the way to go
for now I'm settling for 2nd best! |
Jerry Nuss - Illinois MAX dealer
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 660
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 02:16 pm: |
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EFI will have better fuel consumption and it will have a higher resale value. No choking it and it will do better at all elevations. |
Edward Mobley
Junior Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 09:53 pm: |
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Points taken.. See, what I need is experience talking, of which I have NONE. Thanks... |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 513
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 10:46 pm: |
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Mr. Mobley, Please give your brain a little rest from your market research on Argos and watch the video that I posted on You Tube yesterday. Note that the back four tires are not stock but the front four are. Happy shopping. http://argo playing in the ice in the bay |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 514
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 10:59 pm: |
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Iam trying to post the URL for the video
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJO4gBHppek |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 515
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 11:07 pm: |
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{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ04gBHppek, |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 376
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 12:35 am: |
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Philip, copy the url when you're at your youtube video page, then in the route 6x6 Reply window, click on the icon next to the smiley.. and paste it in there |
Edward Mobley
Junior Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 03:55 pm: |
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Phil, Your video is not available on youtube. Maybe it's me. will check back, thanks. |
Edward Mobley
Junior Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 06:39 pm: |
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One last question on this, i did not ask it of the Argo dealer, but does the Frontier 650 8X8 have double chains like the avenger? |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 516
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 08:38 pm: |
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Hi Ed, I am enjoying listening to you comparing different machines and features and prices. I did the same thing 5 or 6 years ago, for about a year and a half before I bought my Max IV. It made getting the Max even better. About the chains, On my 2007 Argo Avenger EFI, not all of the chains are double. If my memory is right its only the short chains running down from the tranny to the idler shaft and from the idler shaft forward to the front axle that are double. On the 8x8 Frontier, I don,t know, maybe fred sain or dan leonetti can help.
About the video on U tube, Even with Rogers help I cannot get the url cut and pasted to this site?? My computer genius wife may be able to rescue me on Friday.
Bought a ROPS from a friend, on an 8x8 it is BIG. Took it in the water,a little tippy but OK. |
GEARHEAD
Advanced Member
Username: Gearhead
Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 08:01 am: |
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EDWARD- 2007 and up- The chains on all 8x8's are 50/2 on the first 4 axles up front the back 4 axles are single 60 chain and the trans to idler shafts are 60 also. The 6x6's use single 60 chain throughout the whole machine. Note; there is no slack adjusters on the very front axles L&R on all 6x6's and on 2008 and up 8x8's .The only issue I have noticed with 60 chain on the idler shafts is ;as the chain wears there is more noise from these chains than the old 50/2. |
Edward Mobley
Junior Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 09:43 am: |
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Phil,
I was looking at the owner's manual, have downloaded it, anyway, it warns about the unit being unstable in water with that ROPS installed.
I had asked about that roll bar for the 6x6, but was advised that it was not reccomended for the 8x8. Brandon was good enough to check on it and get back to me about it. I have the Argo DVD, and on the Chile volcano high elevation testing the Avengers are set up using these roll bars. I also see nowhere in the owner's manual that discourages the use of that roll bar being on the 8x8s. There are other instances on that very DVD made by ODG itself that present the Avenger with that very roll bar installed. |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 521
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:01 pm: |
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Keep looking Ed,you will be so up to date that us old timers will be asking you what,s up! Whoever told you about the rops vs. 6 or 8 got it backwards. Argo DO NOT recommend the rops on 6 wheelers to go into the water. on 8 wheelers they do. I think that they are overly cautious, and when Argo say ROPS, they mean a tested and Certified Roll over protection system- no lawsuits!=but heavy. Good luck buddy. |
Edward Mobley
Junior Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 03:50 pm: |
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This is the photo that I am referencing. Also, if you look at the Chile High Altitude testing on the Argo DVD it still shows the Avengers configured in this manner. So, did someone die using this roll bar on an Avenger or something? Because now ODG doesn't reccomend that roll bar on the Avenger. The Avenger is not "that" much heavier than a 6x6 Frontier as to cause a catostrophic failure of the roll bar. Especially if ODG does what everyone does, they over-engineer and make it 2-3 times stronger just in case. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 377
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 05:03 pm: |
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Argo has always struck me as being WAY reserved on the side of caution in legal liability. Before the bigfoot, the vehicles were barely off the ground and had weenie tires. Max put them to shame in ground clearance. Of course a max would roll over easier but at least it could go somewhere. There's the argo official way, and then there's the practical real world that people build and use. |
Edward Mobley
Junior Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 10:31 am: |
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Thanks Roger, I have come to my conclusion pretty much. IF I take a job in Alaska I will find an Avenger EFI, but outside of that possibility I will just go with the 8X8 Frontier 650 as aside from the altitude benefits I simply do not see the other benefits as worth another $6k. And to be honest I see no reason why ODG has even kept the Avenger 700 in the line, as it blurs the lines while not being a clear upgrade over the 650. When you start bouncing the horsepower versus wieght issues around the EFI is a clear improvement, IF you need it. The 700 is not a clear value over the 650 in my thinking, not for the price difference. I mean for the price difference between the 650 and 700 I can get accessories such as tracks, a bilge pump, a top & windshield, etc. . And of course, that decent roll bar, even if I have to install it myself.
Probably go with the black or tundra color, as unless I am hunting waterfowl I see no point in camo. Waterfowl see colors, but deer do not, and usually deer are actually curious about new machinery just sitting there. So what's the point of the upland hardwoods camo? I won't be able to find my ride out for another 10-15 minutes. LOL!!!
Wandering around the woods, looking where I "thought" I parked it, freezing my arse off. Finding a single colored GREEN jeep is bad enough sometimes, I'd hate to be trying to find something that blends into the background at -5F with a nice midwestern wind.
BTW, you folks looked like you were having fun at Haspin Acres this year on the video, hopefully I will get stabilized after my career shift (military retirement) and be joining you guys out there soon. |
Edward Mobley
Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 45
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 04:03 am: |
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Ok, after many discussions with quite a few dealers this is what I have come away with on this subject. For ease of actually being able to work on the unit, such as taking it into an isolated area that is probably not going to allow you immediate access to a dealer. The non-EFI engine is probably a bit better as you can actually work on it yourself, after all it is a lawn mower engine. Now, we can say the EFI is better at altitude, but that is not truly accurate either, as the non EFI engine has the option of switching jets, in fact IF you bought a Frontier, or non-EFI Avenger and knew that you were going to be using it between 4-7,500 ft of altitude then you would probably opt for the appropriate jetting in the carburator when you bought it, as it is a factory option. Above 8k ft you would again need to swap the jets out. These are not hard procedures, about 20-30 minutes. Another funny thing that I have found is that this discussion is discussed more by people that are not likely to actually operate at high altitudes, to the folks selling Argos in Colorado & elsewhere, they just order the unit with the appropriate jets installed in the carb, and it is not really discussed much. A "matter of fact" thing.
Alot of folks will tell you on the side that in the long run they are not that trusting of the EFI reliability, and that all that fancy electronic stuff will probably be sitting there in 10 years, while the older, proven, SIMPLE systems is still running reliably. This opinion being based upon the basic principle of "keep it simple".
People like and admire the EFI for sure, but if you talk long enough they will generally tell you that they trust what has worked for decades.
I did not talk too much to MAX dealers, anyone got anything on that? I'm sure that Fred in Montana has personal experiences at altitudes from 4-15kft. |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 547
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 10:00 pm: |
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Ed, Did you hear about the Mudd Ox that was demod at the Ledges event. 8 wheels and amazing! |
fletcher g lalande
New member
Username: Duckhammer
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 04:43 am: |
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Do you guys know if it is possible to have a machine shop make axles 5" longer instead of adding extentions for tracks. |
Joe J
Member
Username: Jjconst07
Post Number: 48
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 11:37 am: |
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Philip,
Is there a sight where we can read about the Mudd Ox, it sounds interesting? |
Edward Mobley
Member
Username: Edward_mobley
Post Number: 46
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2008 - 01:26 am: |
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Phil,
I did not hear about Ledges, hopefully I can find the videos on google video soon. I did talk to Matt the other day about whether or not the Mudd Ox would require re-jetting above 4,000 feet (in CO, or AK), he did some checking w/ the engine folks and called me back right away. The answer is that it ought to run just fine all the way through around 10,000 feet. Being as I just retired from the military and am in the process of finding a new job I am not in position just yet, but it is coming along. I'll be talking to Matt when the time comes. I think that I will also be looking for a good used Max II for my son too, as he is interested. He is also really interested in snowmobiles too though, or just about anything else that moves really.
(Can not imagine where he got that from.)
Should I take a job in AK I think that someday everyone ought to come up and chase moose around w/ me, just come up and get lost in the muskeg, chasing moose around. Motorcycles have Sturgis, well AATVs ought to have a yearly deal up in the Chugach Mountains someplace, or over by Bethel. It'd be interesting. EVERYONE ought to go to AK at least once in their life, it is awesome. |
philip w.cox
Senior Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 549
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2008 - 08:09 am: |
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Joe J- I do not know the web site for Mudd Ox Atv but I got some results on Google and I see an ad from Do Ya Dare floaters under the picture classifieds on this site. The owner is Mat Oxender (sp.?) and he has been going to rides for longer than I have. Worth checking out!
Ed, the Ledges ride was the best yet. Fantastic! |
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