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Message |
    
Christopher W. Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 10:28 pm: | 
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Picked up a new ARGO Response 8x8 wit tracks and immediately drove it up a steep hill in 4+ feet of heavy snow. Every time I let off the throttle the engine would die (warm or cold, flat or hill).
How do I decide whether I simply adjust the throttle cable length (shorten it) or if I have a worse problem (gummed up carb from sitting in the dealer for almost a year)?
-cwjones- |
Argohunter
Intermediate Member
Username: Argohunter
Post Number: 80
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 03:34 am: |
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Welcome to Route 6x6. If it's a new machine/old dealer stock, the selling dealer should handle the problem for you unless you bought it aways from your home and it's too far to go back to him. Unless the throttle cable is loose at the engine mounting location, I don't think that the cable length is the problem. More likely the idle set stop screw needs adjusting or the idle speed need adjusting. Is this brand spanking new? If the carb was gummed up that bad, I doubt it would even idle properly let alone give you the power you need with tracks going up the hill. |
Christopher W. Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 12:18 pm: |
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By your description, it does indeed sound like a carb issue for me. The machine sat in the back of the dealer for over a year (likely without any fuel stabilizer). What you describe as symptoms are exactly what I'm getting: won't idle at all without dying and BARELY makes it up a hill.
I'm frankly relieved to hear this may be the problem as I was wondering if I'd simply bought a very underpowered vehicle for my needs (remote access to a cabin in deep, deep snow).
I am indeed a ways from the dealer, but will take it back next week to have them do a good clean/overhaul of the fuel system.Until then, any quick fix suggestions I can do? I just got new gas and will put it in and run it today. Should I put in some fuel treatment?
This is a Briggs & Stratton engine.
Thanks,
-cwjones- |
Christopher W. Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 05:47 pm: |
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Just came in from running the machine again and things are going from bad to worse. Now the machine is bogging down at full throttle and throwing quite a bit of smoke out of the exhaust.
Can anyone tell me if I'm damaging it if I try to continue to use it over the next couple days before I head back towards civelization? Last thing I want is to have the machine get stuck where I can't even pretend to get it to the dealer.
I'll stick to snow-shoes for now until I can get this figured out. I won't let my anger at the dealer ou there... :') |
Jerry Nuss - Illinois MAX dealer
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 593
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 06:59 pm: |
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I'd go ahead and clean the carb. Remove the air filter and pull the top off the carb, remove the screw from the side of the carb that lets you remove the fuel from the float bowl and get to the primary orifice. Clean out all the junk and reassemble. It is a very common problem I see with dirty gas and gas that gas varnished. |
Christopher W. Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 07:48 pm: |
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Thanks Jerry, when you say clean it out, what's your recommendation for what I clean it out with?
Side question: from reading another thread, it sounds like what I'm seeing can also be a result of the carb burning far too rich. On the carb, does one turn the adjustment screw clockwise or counter-clockwise to make it burn leaner? |
momobigfoot
Member
Username: Momobigfoot
Post Number: 43
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 09:31 pm: |
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This happen to me not to long ago. I replaced my air cleaner, replaced spark plugs because they were badly carboned up trying to run it.And opened top of carb. And clean with carb. cleaner and remove jets and anything with holes sprayed like crazy. You may have to get small wire to run thought holes to make sure there clean.Rick |
Argohunter
Intermediate Member
Username: Argohunter
Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 01:03 am: |
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Chris both Jerry and Momo gave you good advice. This happened to me after I bought a new/but old stock machine from a dealer that went belly up and his inventory was repossessed. It had a B&S Vanguard. I removed the carb and bought a complete rebuild kit for it. I did not want to take any chances. I also replaced the fuel pump and all gas line hose and gas filter. I also cleaned and purged the fuel tank just to make sure. Replaced the spark plugs and I was in business. Ran like it should. |
Argohunter
Intermediate Member
Username: Argohunter
Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 01:11 am: |
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Forgot to mention, you can use any type of carb cleaner that you can buy at an automotive parts place. It's cheaper at the larger discount stores. |
Jerry Nuss - Illinois MAX dealer
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 594
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 01:30 am: |
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If it has a plastic cap on the lean/rich screw it is almost impossible to have it running to rich. Normally they will come from the factory and be to lean. I normally pull the plastic limiter cap off and throw it away then richen up the machine. I wouldn't mess with that part until you have cleaned the carb and the primary orifice. You will have to remov it to clean it. You could also have float sticking, that can be checked when you remove the top of the carb. Any carb cleaner will work. If you have foreign objects in the bowl you will see it. I get them in with mud and sand. I had a new machine in that the bowl was full of black plastic shavings. They came from the fuel pump. I guess it didn't get cleaned up well when assembled. Oh the lean/rich is for idle.
Other things to check is there plenty of fuel?
Is the vent on the fuel cap open?
Is there a loose hose clamp?
Is the pulse pump how bent or kinked or cracked?
If you have a clear fuel filter can you see fuel pulling up into it?
After you do all the easy checks on the carb, then I would check the valve lash. I doubt it would be a problem on a new machine.
I am 90% sure you have a dirty carb. Either varnish, or gas dried out and turned to a crust and thn a piece is blocking the main orifice. |
Christopher W. Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 12:20 am: |
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Talked to the dealer today and based on my symtoms and his advice, I'm replacing the plugs in the morning.
I took the top of the carb off tonight and it was VERY clean with no signs of laquoring, etc. We'll see hos things go in the AM. I'll post back for others to hear. |
Jerry Nuss - Illinois MAX dealer
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 595
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 11:08 am: |
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It could be the plugs. This will happen if the choke has been left on while it is warming up or being driven. The plugs will foul. Let us know if the plug change helps. |
gregg g
Member
Username: Brushcutter
Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 08:43 am: |
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Chris
What color was the smoke,black or white?White would be oil,black would be fuel.If the carb is clean and you are getting black smoke then you could have float problems,going up/downhill could compound these.Also you might want to examine your oil carefully,as extended running with rich carb can dilute oil and very quickly eat the guts(rings,bearings...)right out of an engine.Even though plugs could be fouled out something had to cause this.Could be as simple as bad plugs from factory and we all know thats possible.BTW how did the machine run at the dealer when you picked it up or did they run it long enough to show any problems?Does it have a fuel shutoff?If it does use it when transporting to prevent flooding fuel into oil.Hope that your solution is the easy one. G |
Christopher W. Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 08:54 pm: |
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OK, just to keep people up to date:
I replaced the plugs and air filter (filter was full of fluid). The plugs were completely fouled when I took them out.
It started right up and ran better than I'd ever heard it run since I got it. Unfortunately, it continued to run like bad stuff was getting in to the gas, and I kept getting periods of black smoke coming from the exhaust accompanied by the engine bogging down.
It was enough to get me out of where I was (about 3/4 mile from the road), and I got it on the trailer and to the dealer this morning.
The dealer is being very professional about it and knows that he has to make it right for me. He also knows that I represent a really good opportunity to help him establish himself (he's the only dealer in Washington State, and I will be using this a lot in an area that will get lots of attention).
His B&S Mechanic is due in on Wednesday so I'll know more than.
Thanks to all for the advice and hints.
I will say this, right after putting in the new plugs this machine was AMAZING in the snow. I't got the 18" wide super-tracks on it and moved through any of the snow I tried to move through. |
Chris Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 12:42 pm: |
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Another update, and some follow-on questions.
Dealer took a look at the engine and says that there was a manufacturing defect in the carb such that the needle was stuck open and thus allowed the carb to flood out. They fixed that, cleaned up the carb and put it back together.
They also found gas in the oil. They drained and re-filled the oil as well.
Their claim is that the gas in the oil was also caused by the carb problem. I'm no expert here, but it's not clear to me how a problem in the carb can result in gas in the oil.
I'm very concerned that I'm going to have ongoing engine troubles here, but not having the background, I feel like I don't have a leg to stand on.
Thoughts? |
Dennis F. Saskowski
Advanced Member
Username: Sasko
Post Number: 157
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 01:42 pm: |
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Chris when any motor floods out or runs really rich, excessive fuel that doesn't burn passes the rings and dilutes the oil.Fuel was also spitting out on you air filter.With thinned out oil it will pass the other way and cause your blue smoke. If this condition wasn't run for a long time I wouldn't worry about it.Did it take life out of your motor, hard to say. I would change the oil and filter after a couple of times out. |
gregg g
Member
Username: Brushcutter
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 08:38 pm: |
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Chris,if there was a manufacturing defect in the carb then the manufacturer should warranty any future problem that is a direct result of that defect.Get a statement of awareness from your service center that clearly states the initial problem,when it was discovered(# of hours on engine if possible), the mechanic's findings and what they did to fix it.Get names and dates and keep all reciepts related to this problem.How long the machine will run depends on how long it ran with how much gas in oil.What they do about it remains to be seen.Good luck.G |
Richard Clark
Senior Member
Username: Route6x6
Post Number: 201
Registered: 02-1997
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 10:44 pm: |
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6x6 Friends
You asked for it, now posted Briggs & Stratton
Vanguard Carb cleaning directions.
We have posted a step by step photo guide to help with this common problem. Posted in your HOW-TO
section on ROUTE6x6 linked below
http://www.route6x6.com/howto/index.html
Thanks
Richard Clark
ROUTE6x6
RICHARD'S RELICS |
Bryan Jaedike
Member
Username: Tigerguy
Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 05:04 pm: |
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Richard Great section, thanks, how about information on getting stuck clutch off my Max transmission Bryan Jaedike |
Chris Jones
New member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 03:49 pm: |
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Richard, good stuff, but a couple of comments:
- Can you include a picture showing the needle and proper location/assembly of it?
- You point out the bowl nut where access to the high speed jet is found, but don't actually tell people to remove it. I presume you should? |
Richard Clark
Senior Member
Username: Route6x6
Post Number: 203
Registered: 02-1997
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 07:09 pm: |
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Chris
Thanks for the input, about your points:
1) Good idea, I will add a photo and script about the needle and its location
2) To much trouble to remove jet, in later steps if shows and tells you to clean with carb cleaner.
Please keep sending comments and ideas for future HOW-TO's
Thanks
Richard Clark
ROUTE6x6
RICHARD'S RELICS |
Bud
Advanced Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 129
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 01:32 pm: |
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Thanks for that useful how-to, Richard.
Bud |
Chris Jones
Junior Member
Username: Cwjones
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 01:53 pm: |
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Final update for folks. After a weekend of everything working great, the engine just stopped allowing me use throttle. Imagine me driving nearly a mile at barely above idle...
When completely cleaning the carb, the dealer found some corrosion, so we just replaced it completely and now it's running great.
On the side, I have a friend in Alaska that runs a very similar engine for his boat motors in the back woods and he's struggled with water in the fuel constantly, which had nearly identical symptoms to me. This year, he installed a water seperating fuel filter on it and it was the first time in 10+ years that he had NO engine troubles.
I'm looking to install a similar filter on my machine as well, as I'm guessing that some of the corrosion was water introduced. |
Lance Sammer
Junior Member
Username: Cragen
Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-1997
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 08:04 am: |
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Chris.. Where do you get these water seperators? I check at Autozone, they said they did not know what I was talking about? |
Lance Sammer
Junior Member
Username: Cragen
Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-1997
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 09:54 pm: |
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I still can find these water traps, anyone have any idea? I found one for a diesel but it was so large. |
Erich Kelter
Intermediate Member
Username: Fisherman
Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 10:25 pm: |
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Racor is one of the companies that makes them, try typing water fuel seperator in your search engine. |
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