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Rob Sandera
New member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.131.150
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 06:51 pm: | 
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Im working on the Ultimate Amphibious Machine it will be built to withstand a crash, perform better then anything without getting stuck, be totally reliable, and more sporty then whats available, and hopefully 99.9 % maintenance free. It may become available in kit form at some point. However there are things that can contribute to design and others that trade things off therefore I need input. First I need to know what do people feel is needed for ground clearance??? Is an Argo or Max enough is a few inches or 6 inches more needed etc. Keep in mind if you raise the center of the tunnel and have side drive wells for chains you lower the floatability level so you sit lower in the water. And anyone wanting a free 6x6 calendar need to get over to my monster yahoo group and get in the contest with your photos Give me you opinions on what you think the ultimate Machine just has to have or needs Thanks |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 460
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 70.106.207.31
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 01:16 am: |
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You lost me on the raise the tunnel and have side drive wells part. It seems to me it is just a matter of displacement. Dependng upon the cuft of displacement versus the weight of the machine that would determine how high it sits out of the water. Ground clearance has not been a huge issue for me, 8 inches would be good. I'd like to see the front wheels out further and a steep angle on the front of the machine. Then the ability to have larger tires and the ability to get the power to them.
I've seen a couple of aluminum machines built to the max II dimensions running a Mazda rotary engine. It had lots of power and was very fast but it was still heavy.
One of the european machines with huge balloon tires would be something I would look over. What is the intended purpose of the machine, work, play, military service? |
Rob Sandera
New member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.135.147
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 04:27 am: |
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What Im referring to with tunnel is generally you have the wells as I call them where axle sprockets run, then the bottom floor may be up a few inches higher. Say 2-4 inches higher. 2 inches on an Attex verse maybe 5 inches on a scrambler. Hmm when you get stuck what is dragging in the mud the most is that lowest point of the body.
If you ran some sort of gear case you could raise the majority of the body or tunnel or floor (part in between the sprocket wells) ground clearance even more but you are in effect building a slimmer body not as high so its going to set in the water different however the ground clearance would be higher except for where the sprockets or wells will scrape on the ground. Basically your changing the body friction ratio to dragging in heavy mud but any major ground clearance issues could make a machine drive out of a steep pond better.
Im looking at fiberglass and carbon fiber body because they take more abuse then the plastic bodies and all the same use as a Max and Argo, work, play, possible production for the military, but I live in the extreme environment here big huge hills, streams, boulders, mud etc. I could probably trash any machine here in a matter of hrs or days so Im looking to supersede all designs. As far as tires sizes are limited by the type of tire. I dont consider rawhides an option. The new frontier tire now that may be another story. I am after a runamuck or chevron type tire that is soft and all rubber not nylon. If there was a 26 inch by 12 wide chevron on an 8 inch rim all rubber that would be a tire to be reckoned with. Now that you bring up front angle depends on the use. For high speed the sleek angle of a trail boss makes it skip over obstacles, yet I see the blunt angles of the frontier come in handy for driving the front in a hole and driving out hence moving the front wheels forward could be beneficial but you may have to design as a 8 wheeler then to get an effective wheelbase that performs better. But if you hit a small 12 ft tree believe me youll want the sleek front angle. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 461
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 70.106.207.31
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 09:11 am: |
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Sounds like you have it figured out. Keep us posted on your build. |
Mike Maroni
Advanced Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 162.84.78.96
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 09:29 am: |
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Rob,
Here are some issues I think are important:
"lighter" weight for better flotation, meaning stay under 1000 lbs
Truly sealed and protected axle bearings
I know it's a quantum leap but a mild suspension would be good for a couple reasons:
1.Tires could be run at a slightly higher pressure therefore reducing tire bead problems
2. Overall it would be easier on the machine and give the ability to run higher speeds safely.
3. Easier on the driver and passengers. I would also like to see a suspension bench seat.
The drive system should be simple to maintain and work effectively. The Hoot ATV has a patented system that seems simple but effective. Something along those lines.
More cargo space.
I agree with Jerry about the tires forward for better approach angles.
Good Luck
Mike |
Rob Sandera
Junior Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.134.20
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 01:18 pm: |
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Jerry. Ive been researching all the other designs for years trying to look at any little thing that can be improved and I just found this to be one of them. Mainly I think this area could change the problem of when you drive into that 4 ft muck pit and fail to move anymore. Generally I think thats something that goes on more at a sanctioned ride or contest. Mike all the issues you bring up are important Im trying to see if its possible to come in at 450 pounds. That may require some titanium. 650 lb plus machines are great for working but sacrifice in sand or mud for fun. On sand pounds per square inch on the ground is everything. Compare a Suzuki Samaria driving on sand to a big Chevy 4x4 a Samaria will stay on top and go places others cant. As far as axles Argo has a aluminum support hub that looks like a solution on the axle it makes it so the axle probably only extends a few inches verses 12 inches etc. Im looking hard at sealed gear cases fabricated out of aircraft aluminum plate they could use the support hub cone style as argo does. Suspension I like the cockpit feel of a trailboss dual bucket seat with center console grab bar. That bar saved my life one time in a high-speed roll over as a kid. But duel bucket suspension seats absolutely and while youre at it why not put heat in the seat and or floor pan. As far as body suspension I dont see it happening. But if it were a lot could be learned from the Volkswagen swing arm trans etc. However keep in mind the floatation tires that these machines were originally designed for rode way smoother. I would like to see max offer various tire options not just rawhides. Ive also found the 50-inch wheelbase machine ride rougher then the longer machines. I have 10 scramblers a couple attexs and Maxs one Attex has aftermarket tires and on froze ground is a rough ride so rough I broke the molded motor mounts giving a guy a ride. The scrambler I drive has flotation tires and have hit a downed tree and it just bounces over it and rides like a Cadillac. But scrambler is a 450 lb machine well balanced etc. I believe 58-inch wheelbase and that does take that wild high-speed loss of control out when coming over an icy hill. The max's are restoration projects one being an old big max but I have driven a lot of maxs and their good etc. and at some point I may become a dealer. But as we see the Newer Maxs have substantial improvements being made all the time so there coming to a point where a new machine shouldnt even be compared to an old one. Mike and Jerry you both obviously have a lot of experience if you understand a need of the front end angles, tire locations etc. What types of issue have you had are you driving up to a steep incline and hitting the front ( as this pic on Brandon Prices site http://www.realatvs.com/113-1374_img.jpg) and not able to clime out or need to skip over obstacles or what. Continues |
Rob Sandera
Junior Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.134.20
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 01:19 pm: |
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Also cargo space what are you using it for hunting fishing riding passengers etc Its possible 2 separate designs need to be, one for heavy farm type and sportsman use the other for sporty fun and playing in swamps etc. I dont know if any of you have read about the New Argo frontier and its 24 inch tire etc but I believe there are on the right track and Id love to have one now. Biggest thing I dont like on Argo is the way you dont sit down in it, but for its speed that may be ok. You get on the hills I got and 20 MPH will feel like 100. I like my scrambler that you sit down in and have a low center of gravity but you also trade off that in a high weeded field you take a lot of crap in the face bugs etc. So as you see for each design you often trade off something else. But scramblers were designed in 1967 The time has come to evolve designs. In Japan it apparently was done as they did produce one of the best Scramblers ever built and stole designs etc. after purchasing U.S. made Scramblers. Also looked at the hoot I would like to see one in person or close up of the drives. Its a different type of machine and Im sure I would definitely take it over a 4 wheeler. Im working on putting out a magazine online and the paid subscription would give you a monthly DVD with things like movies of these test and machines and rides etc. Nothing like witnessing the peoples beast in Action. I need everybodys input because I hope to show up at a event one of these days and have everyone say holy cow I cant live without one that I have the most sporty, comfortable indestructible, unstoppable machine ever built. I came from a family of machinist and Motor Patternmakers and Mold makers. I have one excellent machinist mold maker designer buddy I worked with in Michigan that I sit down with and design some serious stuff with sometimes. With different views together we always come up with a solution to a design problem. He races Dirt Cars so understands serious abusive conditions. We both own small backyard tool and die shops now so Im looking to you guys in the field of the things you see needing improvement. Sorry for the long post but figured you guys needed to know where Im coming from. So keep me posted with your ideas etc. Its possible Ill build some bolt on parts for existing machines. |
Mike Maroni
Advanced Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 107
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 162.84.78.96
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 02:03 pm: |
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Rob,
Another thing to consider is that the National and State Parks are limiting ATV width to 50 inches. I know that this limits stability somewhat but it's something to consider
Mike |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 462
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 12.214.180.174
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 02:09 pm: |
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Another thing I like is the sit up close to the front and the rear engine. I like the ability to see right in fron of me when going up and down hills. This also can give some better legroom. The rear engine is good to have less weight in the front and the exhaust is out the back. I've been in namchines that sat low in the water and the exhaust was in the front and we were breathing fumes.
The shallow front end angle has been a problem for me while exiting the water. Te surface may be rock with a great amount of traction, I just bounce he front of the machine off the bank and the tires are not forward enough to get traction.
How about a solid foam tire that is soft and provides for suspension yet does not need air? Forward seating with a suspension seat. Maybe a nylon web or suspension seat as used in some military aircraft. Don't have the body tub extend out over the tires. Instead have a flat piece that be adjusted up or down to keep flying mud from getting flipped up. The adjustable pieces over the tires could be just flat or could also be optional boxes for storage or special equipment. The distance between the tires would be the only limit to tire size and not interference with the body tub over hanging the tires. |
Rob Sandera
Junior Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.134.20
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 02:11 pm: |
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Thanks for telling me that Mike. That's not good as I was considering jumping up to 60 inches. Your new snowmobiles take up a wide double trailer and often ride side by side so I fail to see their point unless its to keep small cars out of the woods. |
Mike Maroni
Advanced Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 108
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 162.84.78.96
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 02:35 pm: |
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Rob,
Yes its to limit the "buggies" and jeeps from the ATV trails. Unfortunately the 6 and 8 wheel crowd don't have much of a voice politically. I think we tend to be a little to one side of the bell curve and therefore there aren't as many of us. It would be nice to talk to legislators about the low impact of our machines etc.. but I don't think it would do much good.
An example of the National Forest lack of logic would be in southern Vermont where I have a cabin. The local snowmobile club spent a considerable amount of time and $ straitening up a 5 mile section of trail during the summer. The improvements involved pushing rocks and boulders that had fallen into this old stage caoch trail over the years to the side of the trail. The national forestry people decided that it was arbitrarily "too wide" so again at their own expense and time the had to put back all the large rocks and boulders they had previously moved. The Your government at work. |
Rob Sandera
Junior Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.133.105
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 03:57 pm: |
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Do you think the engine in the front is Better? Just watched an Argo DVD Awesome. What would you think of a T-20 machine with the trans in the front like an argo and built more like the newer snowmobiles? I think a front engine and weight may be better for climbing large hills. |
Chuck McGhee
Advanced Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 110
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.170.193.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 04:53 pm: |
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Front engine is good for climbing hills, but yo have to usuallt go back down hills after you climb them and then front engine is worse.
Mid engine sounds good to me. |
Rob Sandera
Junior Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.133.248
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 07:22 pm: |
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I have heard that of the old Argos that the back is way to light that you could lift it with one hand that they go down hills bad and can roll but the new Avenger and Frontier look to be totally different I just watched a Argo DVD. Very impressive. You could probably move a driver back too so you balanced better. Lets not forget you got to make it up the hill before you can come down LOL I got some nasty hills here. I’m looking from a same or better performance aspect as a mid or rear engine machine but easier to work on the engine etc. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 465
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 131.230.43.20
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 07:42 pm: |
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I stil believe the rear engine is superior for putting a person more forward for better visibility and less whiplash effect when going over obstacles such as logs. Easier to work on, just make it so the whole back engine cover lifts off.
I have seen a max that had the area over the engine cut off, then replaced with a flat aluminum lid. The lid was hinged by the back seat. Flip it up and a person had access the the engine and transmission.
Removing the florboard in the Max II can be a pain. Big improvem
ents can be made to have the drietrain and mechanicals more accessible. |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 45
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 08:40 pm: |
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I recently received my New Hustler 980 body from Richard and will be building the unit with the following:
Argo type frame with Argo spline axles, sprockets and Avenger axle extensions, T-20 trans. I am considering the 31 hp Vanguard or similar Kohler. Maybe going liquid cooled but the budget has to give someplace. The 980 has a very tall body with wheel clearance for 28" tires. The Hustler body also allows the engine to sit behind the trans very low in the tub. The only issue with the lower body is the center axle bump that screws up the mud performance. I will attempt to remold the bump to remove it.
Anybody have experience in forming Poly body's?
I figure the build will take about a year. The Super chief and vintage 340 scrambler have to git back together first. |
Rob Sandera
Junior Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.132.94
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 10:01 pm: |
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Jerry I understand what your saying on obstacles a tail heavy balance has saved me jumping over logs at high speed that seemed to appear from nowhere. Marc I know budgets kill on the big 4 strokers but you may consider a fuel injected Kawasaki liquid cooled. My brother put one in a giant golf cart it runs 65 MPH is supper quite and a real sleeper. I would love to see some pics of the inside of your 340 scrambler project to see if it was different from the rest that much. The poly body you have to heat and vacuum form it. It can be hot welded but to replace the bump oh boy good luck tales the right tools and some skill and then I’m not sure how it would hold up. That’s why I like fiberglass. I may have some what I call retrofit scramblers bodies available this spring. They would be little different less bump or sprocket axle well as I call it with a maybe a whole frame kit. |
david berger
Advanced Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 499
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.32.68
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:26 am: |
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jerry next time you see john schwab at a rideing event check out his floorboard mod's,
it's just what the doctor ordered! |
Rob Sandera
Junior Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.128.153
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 12:04 pm: |
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Chain Cases Is It Time. but Im also interested in whatever the floor pan mod is and Im not sure about making it to events this year yet. So hope you will explain I hope to be at the ledges ride in Ohio. Snowmobiles have demonstrated for years the reliability of chain cases and double roller chain. So other then cost why do we put up with the mess we got. Do you think its time to run chains enclosed in a oil bath or even go to a gear case. The system has proven to require less adjustment and be more reliable and clean. |
david berger
Advanced Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 500
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.32.68
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 04:00 pm: |
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ROB the floor pan mod is the floor pan is cut into two parts, one with the seat and the other the floor, it requires seeing ether in person or a good photo or two.
johns bin useing this mod a while.
looks like it should be factory. |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 263
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 199.246.2.9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 08:47 pm: |
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About 1969 Beehoo Engineering in Streetsville Ontario Canada were selling an Amphicat 2 stroker with oil bath chains. They went out of business before the new design got much testing. I have so few chain problems that I can't really see the need. |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 46
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:03 pm: |
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I think the snowmobile oil filled chaincase is a necessity due to the chain speed being exceptionally high. it would be nice to reduce some of the house cleaning chores. Then again if the manufacturers made a decent floor pan that you could remove without spilling into the tub!!!!.
Now if you used the chaincase on the outside of the tub and supported it with springs and hung the tires off of it you may have something. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 20
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.133.76
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:33 pm: |
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David what brand ATV is it with 2 piece floor pan. Phillip many 6 wheeler companies have told me the Honda ATC 90 was what took out there business. The entire recreational and camping industry suffered at one time. I have never been happy with some of the weak parts in an amphicat but some models were different and better. If they started chain cases they knew there was a need. Main thing is man all these designs are stuck in the 60s. When they changed the snowmobiles the never ending work came to an end. Im just trying to build the Iron Duke of the world LOL! Where I live NW Pa. some times it rains hard for a week strait, oil washes right off everything. Six wheelers left outside with plugs left in fill right up with 2 ft of water. Trying to cover stuff is impossible etc. So it is continues work trying to keep up with it all till I get a large barn or something. But on the other hand the rain makes this six wheeler heaven. Yet the 4 wheeler guys just shoot their stuff with a hose and its clean and ready to go. Wouldnt it be nice to have a 6 or 8 wheeler show hardly any wear with 5 years of use on it. I have never replaced a chain or sprocket on a snowmobile. Some old Rupps we had 30 years. Marc thanks for rainin in while I was writing my post. A lot of good points made. Personally I think you could lighten up the unit with double 35 chain that has shown not to break in high HP snowmobiles with chain cases, then have a clean unit etc. |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 501
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.32.68
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 09:23 am: |
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my terra jet has a chain case,
ROB i was at first mentioning to jerry about a mod i saw done on a maxII by john schwab,
john schwab's maxII sports a home spun 2 piece floorpan/seat araingment that works very well.
johns got a top on his buggy but can get out the seat or floor pan any time without any hint of trouble.
it taks seeing it with your own eyes as i cannot explain exactly where the cut was made.
prehaps someone can get a couple of good photo's of it and post them. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.131.222
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 12:38 pm: |
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Ok Anybody got Johns email or if he's on here they can send to me at rob@onmars.net I would love to see if he can send me some photos or what rides he'll be at. I have scramblers and they have seats that attach to the floor pan and aren't to bad. Mostly hard on the back lifting it out of there. I would also love some pics of the terra jet chain case setup. Have you ever had to open up the cases etc replace any parts had any problems etc. The machine I build wont be some plywood box it will be top of the line styling etc and available to people in whatever limited capacity I'll have to produce it. That's why everybody's opinion is important to me here. There is also a possibility that aftermarket performance parts will be made available for existing machines. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.128.31
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 03:01 am: |
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Pick Your Favorite Body Style and give a reason why and your usage (fun, race, sportsman, hunting, fishing, farm, etc) I found Johns email on the floor pan. I like scrambler body’s for low center of gravity tough sleek fiberglass styling and that you sit in it. The longer wheelbase provides a better ride. Next trail boss I like the seat buckets and center handrail you feel seated in a boss, no sliding. Max body or avenger frontier body hmm toss up there. Sitting high up like argo I see an advantage for farm use easy in and out access. Max and trailboss share raised front ends provide superior field driving in tall weeds. Give me some opinions the ultimate body 6 8 10 wheel etc. |
Mike Cummings
Member
Username: Hydromike
Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 141.149.254.227
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 10:22 am: |
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This probably won't help in the design of a mass-production machine to any extent, but you asked for favorites, and here's mine. Its pretty specific.
I simply adore the performance aspects (power, ride quality, control, maneuverability, safety,handling in general) of modified Attex racers. Personally, I think the appearance of the Attex body style (regardless of year) is simply the most appealing.
Obviously, Attex racers are in no way to be compared directly with the utility and comfort value of Max, Argo, Hustler, etc., nor are they practical for the needs and wants of 99% of AATV'ers.
The racers that many of us Attex enthusiasts have built combine power, safety and handling at the expense of comfort, utility and reliability, but again, you asked for favorites. The low center of gravity, the preponderance of power, and the safety built into the machines all combine for one heck of an experience. In my opinion, the "unsprung" T-20 provides great control at all speeds, and I've never had any problems with coasting, breaking, or other unpredicatble actions out of 40-50 hp machines at 40+mph, whether mud, snow, ice, grass, dirt, whatever... The machines are light, and maintenance is simplified (no floor pans, engine covers, etc.)
They ride like a buck-board, they're loud, they have questionable reliability, and it's quite possibly the most fun I've had. I'm building a 4-stroke Atetx now, so once that's done, I'll be able to compare Apples to Oranges better....
~mike |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 30
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.135.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 04:41 pm: |
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Mike I always appreciate your post or emails etc and yes they do help. I consider your experience with engine transplantation and modifications invaluable. Being the high performance experience you have Id love to hear your finished 4 stroker conversion report to see if you have a place for it in your fleet. I see a need for 2 machines one performance the other more farm, utility and hunter fisherman sportsman. I went into town with my neighbor last night and told him I think I want an 8 wheeler Fully camoed with roll cage and fish pole holders Bow and arrow rack gun holders, trolling jets and camo that hangs on the side to cover tires when parked like a rolling blind and then we may have to build a ramp so its sitting in a tree LOL! Were both a couple of neighborhood clowns around here. I can see where a all out sportsman vehicle could be a riot, and hunting and fishing would never suck when you didnt get anything LOL!
Im gathering you changed the center of gravity with your roll bar and single seat lowered in the tub more on your racer. One of the things I noticed on Stock Attex is with a full tank of gas and a heavy guy or two they may balance nose heavy. That was how my brother endoed one. He basically came over a snow woopdie do and catapulted nose down into another one and dorked in and went flipping through the air. With no roll bar. He was lucky it landed right or they both would have broke their necks or decapitated themselves.
What I have found is a 50 inch wheelbase machine will always out maneuver other longer machines and spin circles easier. Attex probably had the highest power to weight ratio of any 50 inch wheelbase machine (amphicat, max tiger, trailboss, argo etc with maybe the exception of big max which was on the same line.) But I have also found flying over a hill and hitting a slick patch at above 35 they become light and you better have your wits about you as Ive had some go right into a slide and spin from a bump on the controls at the wrong time. It could have been a hole in the road, be trans drag it could be tires or sprocket drag etc All I know was brakes were not going to stop me as I was sliding down hill faster then I came over it. When I seen I was going into a full spin I floored it and through it into a wild spin in case I hit a dry patch cause I was worried it may bite in and flip. By doing that I held it strait finally while siding backwards slowed it and hit the ditch only about 5-10 MPH backwards. But I have not had the same problem with a lighter machine and a 58 inch wheelbase. 58 Inch wheelbase machine were poor in mud though because the tunnel dragged from the space between the wheels made the machine sink lower. (Keep in mind I live by dangerous hills that 5 people usually crash on every winter.) Max 4 and Rim improved on this with a larger 12 inch rim tire but what about suspension with a large rim and the fact the body style was more geared toward utility then sporty ness. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.135.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 04:44 pm: |
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Argos New Frontier uses the 58 inch wheelbase and more width now but they corrected the design with something thats been needed for years a 24 inch 8 inch rim soft probably all rubber runamuc tread style tire by Carlisle. And Im told they stay on the rims and ride soft with 3 pounds of air and they are $125.00 without the rims. Hit em up Move em out Raw hide theirs a new tire in town and regardless of price it may be the only right tire. I know on this farm it will be. This tire needs to be an option on every manufactures machine. When I watch all the movies Im just not seeing the flex even in the Rawhide 3 tires its limited. I had spoke to Carlisle a few years ago about making an all rubber chevron tire and also wanted a 26 inch. I know the old smooth riding Gotcha Chevrons cannot be the hi nylon content tire they sell today. And you yourself once told me the runamuc give a nice ride but as you see your paying more for that Goodyear rubber tire. Carlisle was interested but I never got up with the girl who was in charge to see what quantity it would take etc.
That Argo Frontier tire closes the tire gap gives more traction softer ride better control with the extra wheelbase etc. They in fact may have the very best modifiable design with the Frontier for performance now. One things for sure their on the right track to a nice machine. Ive already advised Argo if I get set up as a Dealer I want nothing but New Frontiers and Avengers. Id like to see a special option Frontier 31 Hp liquid cooled. Even with slower 4 stoke engines I think youll see a great Utility performer. I also like Max 2 and They are close by to me. I would like to see the 29 HP Kawasaki Fuel injected liquid engine as a special option in a max 2 and see a Frontier Argo tire as a option as well or at least something beside rawhides. This could be a huge start to a high performance 4 stoker.
All the attexes still alive and being restored is a testament to a 30 year old design. The parts that broke were usually because of wear not necessarily design flaw. They dont have a bad look, a little boxy and dated but it all works well. I would have liked to seen a glass body available and some more colors. And yes the access is probably the simplest there is. They had the only machine you flip open in seconds and could get at 90% of everything that was needed. Either a Attex or a Max could be modified and well suited for high performance and or racing. I have a big max project I may set up like this. Personally Id through the shifter away in the Max and put in an Attex linkage as I have never had a T-20 jump out of gear in an Attex and if Max does in fact have that problem they need to ad a spring locking pin like a drag boat shifter once its in gear its locked. I believe Richard had a Max shifter linkage upgrade.
Noise well your not going to see a lot of happy people when running a expansion chamber or loud muffler in your neighbor hood. And with all the politically correctness bullcrap in the world a quite machine is a neighborhood friendly machine not so heavily frowned upon. I got about 125 acres here surrounded by about another 600. The 4 wheeler neighbors going by slow and quite dont offend me I usually wave and just ask them not to go right by the house unless they are stopping over as Im single and dont like my woman entertaining interrupted by guys with guns and lights coon hunting etc |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 32
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.135.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 04:45 pm: |
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My hats off to Richard for all he has done for the sport and all the parts he has now. There no reason in the world anymore a guy cant do a great restoration unless he doesnt want to spend the money. Unfortunately in our sport allot of them dont and expect everything for 5 bucks LOL! I see Richard has a super quite muffler out I want to ask him about if its his design or a nelson or what etc. Because I have an old campground I may sell machines to people or rent to people I would retro fit machines to be quite and reliable so everybodys happy. I know it can be done as I have a Kawasaki Club car golf cart and with the muff on it you can hardly hear it. My brothers fuel injected 65 MPH cart is the same way till you really get on it. He says you cant even tell its a big engine when its idling other then the cart shakes more from the displacement. Its the ultimate sleeper
All the things you say make sense combine power, safety and handling but what if you improved comfort, reliability and still kept sleekness or racing style and made utility use available by a various conversion kits. You know the usual dump box, roll cages and racks, Im not really looking at a huge mass production thing. Im looking at being like the guys at American Chopper. Put the kits on the shelve Taylor each to a build ticket from a base design. Maybe sell a kit with a complete video series from start to end assembly so average Joe dont have to blow 20 grand. Look at all Senior and Pauly have done for the chopper and bike industry. They inspired a following and pioneered new designs of parts etc. Heard their wild Argo Experience was more like every man for themselves LOL and didnt go so good. But hey its TV so ya dont know if it was planned or what and I missed it.
A new design that yes 99.9 percent of people will want so I can stay in business. Id Still sell other machines and Id still offer improvements to other companies that were more capable them me at mass production. Max and Argo are both making constant improvements trying to give us what we want. Maybe we should tell them what we want and need. Our basic designs always revert back to the first designs that started in 1967. A dirty oily bathtub two plunger sticks with balloons for wheels LOL! Were almost stuck in a time warp. Wheres the other cool stuff like paint jobs and chrome and decals and gear and the chicks that go with it. I lived in a snowmobile town and you see people spending 15 grand to ride 1 month etc yet they think 6 grand for something you can drive year round is to much. Because its not sporty and cool enough to draw people in. I used to be in that group before it got that expensive. I have to admit Im envious when I see the cool tailored jackets and helmets and stuff and that both the men and woman are having fun. We all went from house to house and had chili parties and bond fires. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 33
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.135.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 04:46 pm: |
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I was all for bringing racing back but will probably never have it on my property or anywhere I could be liable. It only took a few jerks to bring me to that level. And some were 4 wheeler people just destroying my property. 911 ruined the all ready bad ins industry that you try to insure something like that and they just want to cancel all your policies. The best thing I found I could do was sponsor a race at a existing ATV track but then you worry about is there enough interest. They set up a ride here for 4 wheelers with 40 miles of farms etc and they destroyed everything and the people said get out never come back.
Back to bodies. I do have a Attex Thundercheif that Im probably keeping. I may build a carbon fiber Kevlar skid plate crash pan for it or may just remold a glass body and switch over to a factory roll cage. Somehow I envision a bright hot rod green Attex with some chrome roll bars would be cool.. Anything you would improve on an Attex.??? Modified as a single seater racer I see all the potential. But the market for that single person type of machine is lower so it should be considered a special modification. One of the things I dont like of any machine is a flat bench seat. They are prehistoric. I would like to see Max like a trailboss with a double bucket so you dont slide around. Maybe Argo too or at least what my motorcycle upholstery buddy called a grabber seat where the cushion is sewn in molded foam to actually grip you. Or if a machine was wider maybe dual racing buckets dropped into the tub. Gotcha had a neat set up a bench that the center came out for a single driver to sit lower like a bucket and be centered.
My buddy and I camped every weekend here smashing a Gotcha into big boulders driving up streams etc. I bounced pretty high and bashed the body pretty hard a few times but never broke anything. I like the sleek front angle of a trailboss for skipping across water and hitting obstacles at high speed but it prevents getting out of a ditch where the blunter shorter angle of an Attex allows you to drive out of a steep angle. Part of that is the sleek angle front moves the front wheels back farther which is not good. Bad part was the ABS bodies you smack into a big rock with the less angled front you come home with a hole or big crack. So everything has a trade off.
Brandon Prices website with New Frontier pictures proves front angle is something to consider. There is a pic like driving in a hole blunt to the front yet the other pic shows a steep clime out of it.
http://www.realatvs.com/113-1374_img.jpg
http://www.realatvs.com/113-1391_img.jpg
I think the 24 inch tire time has come though. Its going to move tread to the forward position. Its going to grip harder, give improved ground clearance. And its going to have more suspension with an 8 inch rim. In effect its a modern day floatation tire thats repairable. Last I heard the last firestone flotation tire may have been $185.00 a piece. But look how long they lasted some 30 years. Many people werent going to spend $1200.00 on tires and let their six wheelers rot in the field till 4 wheeler started costing 5 grand etc. $125.00 for a top notch tire thats patchable from the inside could be the last tire a guy ever needs. But it may not fit many of the old bodies. So is it time to make the body fit the tires and maybe pick up a little advantage here and there along the way. Thats my article for the month LOL sorry it was so ling but now guys know where Im coming from. Everybody put your input in. I wasnt aware of all these floor pan problems people are concerned about. Is the pan being removed to inspect or clean or get water out etc. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 34
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.133.200
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 05:07 pm: |
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The Ultimate Crusher Rules All
Ok I found the post with the crusher thanks for pointing it out Marc
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2811900158456785029&q=extreme+4x4
Its unbelievable. I am impressed with the collage in Pittsburgh this would make a great Steven King Movie LOL pursued by the possessed Crusher. Or your at a Crusher race and the brain goes haywire and kills all the fans and takes over the worldand goes out hunting for things to crush LOL!
It has big horsepower electric motors in each wheel and cost about 30 million dollars. http://science.howstuffworks.com/crusher1.htm Interesting and Awesome
All I know is I wouldn’t want to be running from a Crusher. While the suspension is probably not a system we can use it proves a suspension opens all kinds of possibilities. How many people think 4 inches of suspension would be enough not counting tires on a AATV. That may be a seat suspension but would give you more performance by being comfortable in control.
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/crusher-1.jpg |
Ray Kohls
New member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 08:31 pm: |
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Hello Everyone, this is my first post I have been reading the messages for a few years getting ideas for building a new AATV. So starting in Oct/07 to Feb/07 I have designed and build a new 6x6. I call it a "Bushwacker" it incorporates some new thinking, what do you think?  |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 470
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 131.230.43.5
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 09:19 pm: |
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It looks very interesting. Can you tell us more about it? |
Ray Kohls
New member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:20 pm: |
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Thanks for the interest Jerry, Well what you see is my efforts working 8 hrs/day/5 days/wk from Oct/06 to Feb/07. Here are some of the specifications:
WB=57", Width 50", 25x9x12, 1 1/4" 4140 axles, 5052 Aluminum Hull, #60 HD, 23 hp Vanguard (new 50 amp),Tuff Torq KT-35, Linear Actuator Locker,Suspension Seat 5 way w/adj. dampener, 6" Freeboard Lateral Stability Hull Design, 45 deg. water entry(fwd/rev), 4 fan cooling system, Low C of G, Full HDPE skid plate, Winch Location Bow/Stern, Fwd Opening Hood w/complete easy access Bow/Stern, Flip-up Rear Seat/Storage, Hood Light, 12v Receptacle, Back-up Lights, Authenic 4 color Camo, Flip-up main main seat, Removable quick disconnect gas tank, Front cornering Lights, Seats 4-5 depending on size, Quad axle seals, Sealed Bearings, Designed for 35 mph, and Aux. water drive (being designed) }} |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 35
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.129.92
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 11:46 pm: |
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It Looks Impressive and your figures are interesting Would love to see your drive more and if the suspension seat is giving the ride you want. I’m not sure what “Tuff Torq KT-35, Linear Actuator” what exactly your referring to there as I am unfamiliar with that part. Its not exactly what I’m out to build but your fabrications look like they make it a heck of a utility vehicle. It looks like you have front power but rear seating for total balance so I will be interested in your performance reports, pictures too and to know how the handling feels like that. I am seeing different advantages of each in rear or front driven machines. |
Argohunter
Intermediate Member
Username: Argohunter
Post Number: 55
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.199
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:00 am: |
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Looks nice and interesting. I am unfamilar with the Tuff Torq KT-35, Linear Actuator Locker. Assuming these are drive train components, how does the power transfer take place? |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 471
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 70.106.223.191
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:37 am: |
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That tansmission he is using is used in the Lil Critter AV-4 machine. Eddie on the discussion board has one and he can give some insight into how it works. I am curious where you located the transmission and what was the expense. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 37
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.129.92
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 02:34 am: |
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Ok the John Deere Gator trans. I think my Brother told me is actually made by Kawasaki who makes Club Car Golf Carts. Ya know some how I envision Bin Forgottens Head 2 inches in front of the wheel of the Crusher LOL! |
Ray Kohls
New member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 07:37 am: |
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Good Morning All, Again thank you for your interest. Let me answer a few of your questions. The KT-35 transmission is used in JD Gators, Club Car, AV-4 etc. JD owns 42% of company it is made in Japan . It is only a 3 wheel drive but splits the torque somewhat but not a true limited slip. Nice features are wet brakes, constant mesh and high torque rating weighs only 66 lbs. Because of the 3 wheel drive effect I installed a linear actuator it is simply a 12v (air cylinder)3" stroke that I can activate whenever it is needed. The AATV is brand new and needs testing to reveal design flaws. I will keep everyone posted.   |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 504
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.19.206.78
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 09:10 am: |
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i know 2 factorys C.E.O's who'r shittn bricks about now,LOL |
Chuck McGhee
Advanced Member
Username: Chuck_050382
Post Number: 121
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 12.170.193.98
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:03 am: |
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I know we all are waiting to see that thing in action. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 472
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 70.106.219.238
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:11 am: |
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Where do you live Ray? It would be great to see it in person or even go out on a group ride when you are doing the shake down on it. |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 505
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.19.206.78
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:07 pm: |
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yes im hopeing he's near some of our organized rideing events, like copperridge! |
Ray Kohls
New member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:59 pm: |
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Hello Jerry, David and Chuck: I live in London Ontario Canada. Right now we are getting winter, cold, lots of snow not the best riding weather. I just weighed the Bushwacker, the empty weight with gas and winch is 680 lbs those drive components sure add up. I am planning to attend some of the events like Copperridge in July and others AATV events and get to meet the community and hopefully put a face to some of the names. I must say I really appreciate Richard and the 6x6 forum, its such a powerfull medium, by sharing and collaborating on projects anything is possible. I'm going to do brief rides, and let everything settle in. Mainly adjusting for chain stretch, and checking drive components. I will be setting up a webpage in the near future, to share the design/build process with the AATV community. My next goal is to learn HTML  . Thanks for the comments. |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 39
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.134.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 03:44 am: |
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Ray regardless of how your test come out I give you an A+ for innovation and fine workmanship. You got a machine you can be proud of. If your not by a ride etc I’m sure someone with a digital camera would volunteer to make you some videos. People have some pretty interesting videos posted on u-tube. I’ll be curious of how you feel with the rear seating because I know in a boat it drastically changes perception of the ride from front to back. When you spin sitting in back may feel like a wild ride. I gather that is a differential lock that actuator runs so is kind of cool you have it on the fly. After watching Argos videos I don’t agree with people on 3 wheel drive and say your either going forward strait or turning putting the power to the other side. Driver skill may make a person wiggle the steering to squeeze some extra traction so I only see the T-20 advantage that the driver is basically in effect the virtual differential operator with more sensitive controls.
I may have a camp ride picnic in NW PA this year about 100 mile out of Cleveland. Its very hard for me to get away with farm operations here and for my neighbors I live at what basically was a 6 wheeler campground farm in the late 60s early 70s Believe me I plan on having Argo and Max here as this is six wheeler heaven. I got about a mile and a half of streams, ponds and spring water everywhere and big hills. I got probably 600 acres behind me that may be available and another 220 on the other side. Id like to hold a swap meet this spring if there’s interest. I may set up some kind of virtual swap meet for people all around the country to participate. I’ll probably have some commentary on the trans your using in the new Monster 6x6 Magazine. I was pretty heavily involved in the Lawn and Garden industry at one time and know allot of the corporate hoopla that goes on.
In case any of you didn’t know it the tire on the Crusher picture is 50” I got lots of snow here right now too Ray. I just got my tractor triple range shifter fixed finally and the tractor is stuck 50 ft from the road in 3 ft of snow trying to get to the drive way so today looks like a shovel day that I don’t need. It looks like Alaska outside. |
Ray Kohls
New member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 08:39 am: |
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Hi Rob, thanks for the compliment, I must say I enjoyed (almost) the whole process. I have viewed all the video I could find before/after building, it was part of the research. Utube is great as well as Google, I have a digital camera and will be posting a link soon. The driver seat position/gas tank/battery were all part of a "weight and balance" to determine the center of gravity so that rider/passenger weights would not change the weight distribution of the Bushwacker. As you know on land its not so much of a problem but on water I didn't like the "nose heavy" attitute of some AATV's. Your right Rob about the rear seat the vertigo effect of doing doughnuts will be more pronounced. As for transmissions I love the T-20 and have offset my engine so I can install a T-20 in the future, I even bid on a few on Ebay but didnt get them. Yes Rob the actuator will engage the diff-lock on the fly. So I agree I need skill and diff-lock to equal a T-20. Your lucky to have all that acreage to ride in sounds like AATV paradise. Well the sun is out today so little Ray will go out to play........ |
Rob Sandera
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 44
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.131.107
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:35 pm: |
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Back to my suspension question How many people think 4 inches of suspension would be enough not counting tires on a AATV The frontier tire demonstrates improved suspension just watching it in videos. 4 wheelers like Polaris ride like a marshmallow and may have 12 inches or more of suspension but probably that much is not really needed unless your back was busted up or something. What I think we need is just improved comfort, taking some of the shock out of the machine and possibly a gain in performance. I have quite a post over in the frontier report card on wheelbase and rides etc. But if a suspension or suspension seating etc could be developed what do people think is enough without a radical re-design of the machine. |
Ray Kohls
New member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 07:04 pm: |
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Rob, I use a suspension seat in my Bushwacker. It is a coil/over shock with 5" of travel before solid. It has a 5 way adjustment, with a dial adjustment for dampening. This combined with 25" x 9" rims, 3 psi, and 5" of high density seat foam gives a very comfortable ride. The "Hoot" has a similar design which I've ridden and it works great. Rob in my opinion nothing else is needed. |
Jack Ouellette
Member
Username: Beungood
Post Number: 44
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.199
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 08:56 pm: |
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Damn! I like that. If it's priced under a Fronteir I'll buy one! |
Bud
Intermediate Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 95
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 167.230.104.90
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 05:01 pm: |
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Very impressive! I particularly am impressed with your keeping the weight down, considering the manufacturing materials. |
Ray Kohls
New member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 08:08 am: |
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Hi Jack/Bud, Thanks for your interest. Bud it was hard to keep the weight down, the empty hull with all the aluminum parts only weighed 150#, it was all the drive components that added up. I think its a myth that fibreglas is lighter than aluminum. Now using kevlar and carbon fibre thats a different story, but hand laid fibreglas is heavy, if you use the infusion process you can save alot of weight. But aluminum is not bad.
I looked at chain substitutes like: poly chain, timing belt etc, but you can't beat chain for pure torque and cost! I have a design for a shaft drive instead of chain thats simple and basically "no maintenance"  , maybe on the next one. |
Rob Sandera
Intermediate Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 56
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.135.74
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 04:38 am: |
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Actually aluminum is probably lighter then some fiberglass but not as strong. Compare a Jon boat. Very light but penetrable. We speared a few with some RC Boats. Fiberglass really gets its weight from the polyester resin and gel coat. Painted epoxy glass is much lighter and stronger and theres like no gel to crack. I have some epoxy glass and fiberglass boats that I designed and built. Carbon fiber and Kevlar still have to be used with fiberglass and are very hard to laminate. If you don't use glass on them they are so hard you cant finish them. My new Machine will have at least one high tech body but don't think you may not blow a grand on a Kevlar and carbon fiber body its expensive as is the resins. The reasons our bodies are Polyethylene today is cost, speed, convenience, weight, toxicity, etc. There cost effective and they work but that doesn't mean their the ultimate. I am amazed that Argo can bond that mossy oak finish on to one though. |
Rob Sandera of monster6x6.net magazine
Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 59
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.129.189
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 02:06 pm: |
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Now that we got on the materials topic what does everyone like for a body Fiberglass, poly, abs or ??? Each has its advantage. Fiberglass has stood the test of time but for a fancy light weight tough glass body your going to pay as they are labor intensive. One thing I would like to see max do is offer a heavy duty option of like a 3/8 thick body. On old farms allot of time steel is in the fields etc and can slit a thin body with ease. I like the painted and custom looks of Ruben Magana's Scrambler see link below. What does everyone else like??http://www.route6x6.com/photogallery/images/pg77.jpg |
Sam Robertson
Advanced Member
Username: Sam
Post Number: 101
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 03:32 pm: |
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I think 7/16 think poly would be best, as it gets thiner in the corners Sam |
Rob Sandera
Intermediate Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 60
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.128.114
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 05:36 pm: |
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Thanks Sam 7/16 bottom would be practically industructable. One of the things I forgot to mention is if I made a fiberglass body I would consider a reverse mold or pressurized plugged injection mold. This would give a smooth interior, if you pressure plugged it it's a more intense process but you could end up smooth inside and out on the tub . If you look at a gotcha it was a reverse mold being glassed over the plug. This gave a precision size to the inside and made it smooth to clean easier and allowed more metal flake to be exposed for a custom look. Gotchas when new were actually a pretty cool little machine. Some of the other fiberglass bodies had pad material inside that is not sealed and were prone for absorb oil.
Do you guys think you would prefer a good nice smooth sealed fiberglass possible Kevlar carbon fiber laminated body or do you like the poly. Heavy poly like trailboss used seemed very rubbery when new and could take a direct hit without damage. I have noticed though the sun aging the poly does make it brittle after 30 years. |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.161.109.159
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 06:38 am: |
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Ray Your machine looks good. I know belts are expensive but you could probably save another 150 LBS. in weight maybe 175 depending on your wheelbase if you went with belt drives. I calculated about 200 LBS in weight savings for my machine. |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 08:01 am: |
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Your right Howard, my estimate in weight savings using belts is similar. I was close to using Poly-Chain but the costs were outrageous. Also the design proceedure to use them was rather involved. I didn't want to do the "missionary" work, I couldn't find anyone who used belts. But my shaft drive design is simple and yields about a 75 lbs weight savings, and just imagine no chains to adjust, maintain, and quiet! |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.161.109.159
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 08:34 am: |
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If you just go by the costs in the Gates books they are really expensive but if you call around they will give you a lot better price than what they list for. I would like to see more internal pictures of your machine & drive shafts etc. Thanks Howard |
Rob Sandera
Intermediate Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 62
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.135.113
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 10:15 am: |
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Ray can you tell us more about your shaft drive design or email it to me. I'm tired of the chain mess and the slime pit lol! Thanks Rob |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 09:37 pm: |
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Hi Rob/Howard, I put together a schematic of a 6x6 with a drive shaft system, this eliminates the chains in the troughs and replaces them with hollow-shaft 90 degree reducers. They need to be sized right for hand and torque depending on the type used: ie: bevel, helical or worm. Each type has its advantages. The added advantage is with a common shaft it is easy to install a dual prop design. Think of the control you would have in the water, brake left side---turn left! |
John Kevin Maiolo
New member
Username: Johnmaiolo
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-1999
Posted From: 205.188.116.8
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 10:09 pm: |
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Excellent idea Ray, this will increase underbody ground clearance by totally eliminating the troughs! Will it be possible to engage and disengage the props? |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:16 am: |
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Hi John, yes it does increase clearance, by a few inches. John to engage the props you need to add a clutch. There are a few types, manual, centrifugal, or 12v, all have their advantages. My choice for would probably be centrifugal. As the schematic shows you will need to add a jackshaft to increase the clutch rpm to around 1,000. Most clutches are tuneable with different colored springs/rpm engagement. So when you spin your tires close to full throttle the props will engage. At normal running speed on land the props will be disengaged. A person should have a prop guard for safety as well as damage potential. I would position them so that not too much of the prop is below the AATV bottom. This is not the most efficient placement but a fair compromise between performance and potential damage. |
John Kevin Maiolo
New member
Username: Johnmaiolo
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-1999
Posted From: 64.12.116.197
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 08:47 am: |
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Ray, you didn't mention jet drive,is there a down side to jet drive? |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 09:41 am: |
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John, well in nice clean water a jetpump will work, but if not the intake grate usually plugs up. So you would need to be selective, but for all around use I think a prop is better. The other disadvantage of a jetpump is higher hp. is required. A minimum of around 35 hp. is required and with all the drive train losses you would need to start out even higher. But the main problem is high rpm is needed for any performance, which in an AATV would probably required a dedicated 2 stroke engine. However because our AATV's are "displacement hulls" the top speed is limited by a formulae that inputs the LWL (Length Water Line). So for a normal AATV hull that speed is around 4-5 mph. Trying to go faster only increases the "Bow Wave" and the associated drag. If I remember you would need to increase hp. by 4x to double speed! So if you want to go faster than 5 mph you would need a "Planing Hull" the only one I know of is the Gibbs Quad-ski, it retracts the 4 wheels and uses a "jet-ski hull" design and goes about 50 mph. Its a nice product and you can have one for around $100,000 |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 284
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 206.191.22.165
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:15 pm: |
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Ray Kohls, I have seen explanations before regarding the limitations of speed placed on displacement hulls by their length in the water. Your explanation seeemed easier to grasp thank you. Would it then be true that a five horse outboard motor would likely propel an 8 wheeler faster in the water than a six wheeler? |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 12:57 pm: |
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Hi Philip, It is interesting, I just ran the calculations for a Frontier. Argo didn't give the weight but I estimate it around 800 lbs, and LWL at 8' (this would be with tires submerged) It comes out at 5.6 mph. The Avenger with 1205 lbs (wow), and LWL at 10' it comes out exactly the same at 5.6 mph. It seems that the increased weight of the Avenger offsets any gains. |
Fred Sowerwine
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 243
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.166.168.53
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 01:01 pm: |
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Phillip, I'm not sure I'm right, but I think Ray was referring to the width of the machine and the flatness of the front. For our machines to go faster, they would need to part the water and have a shape that encouraged the water to lift the machine as the speed increased. We drive barges, not speedboats.
Actually, I think, more tires and a wider front would slow the 8x8 marginally. |
liflod
Advanced Member
Username: Liflod
Post Number: 128
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 151.201.211.103
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 01:03 pm: |
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Hey Ray,
Since you actually enojoy or seem to enjoy calculations, would our machines benefit having the inside of the rim contain added flotation? Picture a garden tractors' add-on wheel weights without the weight, just foam filled. I know it would allow the machine to float a little higher in the water , but enough to make a difference ?
Anyone have any thoughts? |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 285
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 206.191.22.165
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 02:35 pm: |
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Hi Fred, What you say about hull shape just sounds logical,but there is a more mysterious factor at play as a displacement hull is driven forward through the water. I do not have the ability to understand this theory let alone explain it. I'll bet my friend , Ray, can though. Suffice to say that the extreme length of an aircraft carrier has allowed the US Navy to build one of these monsters that will roar along at about the speed of an automobile on a City street. Go figure.
Hey Lance, I have often thought about that but it never dawned on me to try hollow plastic garden tractor weights. If you do it, let us know. |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 15
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 03:39 pm: |
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Liflod, it all helps to make a difference. Displacement is calculated by Area= .7854 x D (diameter squared in inches)x length in inches/1728. This gives cu. ft. x 62.5= lbs. So let say you have an 8" dia rim inside x 7" wide. A= .7854 x 64 x 7 =351 cu. in/1728 = .20 cu. ft x 62.5 (weight of a cu. ft. of water) = 12.6 lbs (floatation) per rim. If you combine this with the floatation idea attached you have significant gains. This idea I believe can work for an Argo or Max as well. The benefits beyond floatation gains is water lateral stability for as you tip you have an "out-rigger" that will resist tipping. You also have a benefit of improved swimming, because you will make the tire tread more efficient by capturing the water and less cavatition. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 232
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.126.250
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 04:14 pm: |
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Lance, you made me think about round styrofoam pieces in the outside of the max 12" wheel.
These ideas will add floatation and stability.. when I went to a taller & wider tire and wheel, I noticed a big difference in floatation and stability even though I probably added a 100 lbs. |
liflod
Advanced Member
Username: Liflod
Post Number: 129
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 151.201.211.103
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 04:22 pm: |
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I like the outrigger idea. I dont have that much room between the tires and body on my Max IV.
Also, I have some experience with sternwheel boats. For the paddle wheel to function best, only 1/3 of it should be under water. I belive that to be the case using tires also. Problem is getting the tires another 8-10 inches higher in the water. |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 04:32 pm: |
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Hi Everyone, I think this article pretty well sums it up. It is a very interesting subject.
http://www.antrimdesign.com/articles/hullspeed.html |
Marc Stobinski
Intermediate Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 51
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 08:35 pm: |
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The tire water propulsion efficiency will go down when you fill the wheel openings. The most efficient design is to have no fenders at all and allow the water to spin off the part of the tire that is out of the water. The water captive on the tread will actually jet forward and down. Tested this principal on a Scrambler where I added fender extension that followed the fender contour. I also think the same principal helps snowmobiles travel on water somewhat easily going fast. There is probably some lift from the top side track trapped water making a very hard turn a the front of the tunnel and jetting down. |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:04 pm: |
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Marc, I don't know what type of tests you did on your Scrambler, but I know that the Hydro-Traxx did have an option for skirts that state their water speed increased from 3 mph without to 5 mph with. See the links for the pics/spec. I think the efficiency comes from reducing the froth, bubbles and turbulance that come from the tires. You dont get much propulsion from foam.
http://www.trutrax.com/hydro1.html
http://www.trutrax.com/hydrotrax.pdf |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 286
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 199.246.2.9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:12 pm: |
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Marc Stobinski I think I understand what you are saying in regards to the area above and around the tires. Now what about Lance and Roger Smith,s idea of filling in the wheel rims where the wheel nuts are. Almost like the old flotation tires? Would have to increase bouyancy ,no? |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 287
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 199.246.2.9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:27 pm: |
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Ray, Thanks for doing the calculations for me.A note of caution Ray, I ride with a wide variety of machines (although yours is the only one I have seen that was built from scratch using a blank sheet of paper!) and in virtually every case where an owner installs a tire other than the brands sold by Max or Argo the water performance drops to near zero. If your testing reveals surprisingly poor water speed ,do not dismay till you have tried using tires borrowed from one of us. The 26 inch Max tires have won the water race every year at Olean N.Y. and Mudbuster has ALL of the trophys to prove it! |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.161.19.215
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 07:19 am: |
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Ray you have a great idea going on there. You might want to start your own post as yours is kind of over shadowing Rob's original post, and I have several questions I would like to ask. |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.161.19.215
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 07:44 am: |
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I am well aware of some of the parks only allowing vehicles with 50 inch width to enter their property but unless there is someone there guarding the entrance more than likely some people are bound to find ways in but I plan on just going to other places. If you wanted & there was no one around you could go in on 3 wheels & then come back down on all 6. But I am not going to engineer or re engineer my vehicle for political B.S. A little bit wider vehicle is more stable & will give you more interior room. I'm not knocking Ray's machine at all I think it's great, it's these dumb rules they come up with. I can bet Mother Nature causes more erosion with every rain than any ATV or 4x4 will ever cause but you could never tell a Tree Hugger that. Sure I'm for conservation And I don't know what the answer is but limiting a vehicles width I don't think is going to make much diffrence at all. |
Ray Kohls
Junior Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 08:23 am: |
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Hi Philip/Howard, about my tires you are absolutely right I fully expect these tires to do nothing in the water. My approach to tires was different, let me explain. Instead of trying for find the best tire for swimming, which would then probably not be the best tire for land but a compromise. I choose to go with the best? tire for land and intergrate an auxiliary drive for water. I remember my Argo days in the river with a bit of current you were helpless, out of control. The tires I found were only good for relatively still water. I have 4 designs for a water drive and dont know which one I will use yet. I will probably prototype them all and choose the best.
Howard I agree, the 50" rule is BS, and there may be ways to circumvent it, but my main purpose in limiting the width was for going through extreme terrain, like you find in Northern Ontario and elsewhere. I have been on trips through the bush where 1" made a big difference. You do lose some stability on side hills but hey everything is a compromise.
Thanks for "start you own post" idea, I'm new to posting etiquette, sorry Rob. |
Marc Stobinski
Intermediate Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 52
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 66.106.213.2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 12:41 pm: |
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Liflod point about stern wheel boats probably has alot of merit. The more water that covers the tire the less efficient. My bigfoot sits higher than my Hustler or Scrambler and is faster in the water. The Hustler has 25 Rawhides the same as my Bigfoot, The Scrambler has Runnamucks. |
Rob Sandera
Intermediate Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 65
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.132.235
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 05:03 am: |
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Sorry I been away for few days guys. For those who haven’t heard about 3 weeks ago I was told I developed cancer in a ulcer so have been going through test to have my esophagus and stomach operated on. Today I get the final word on the treatment plan and cause of action. Cancer at 47 is no fun and there was quite a story behind this how the problem developed. A gun was put to my head, my medical care was destroyed and I was held against my will and tortured for a year and denied a bunch of critical test 12 years ago. I have been suffering with hellacious pain in my right side ever since and had hoped this was the pain and actually going to be cured. The surgeon shattered my hopes and gave me the bad word the pain is nothing to do with the Cancer and is still a unknown problem. A book was being written and a movie may even shock the nation. It only took one political mental idiot who was later removed from a prosecutors job as a nutcase to totally mess up my life. So you can imagine even though I’m trying to stay positive some days it all hits home. Complicate that with millions in lawsuits and FBI complaints to file etc and I basically live in the twilight zone some days. It takes allot out of me but I’m never giving up till I see a few people in prison.
Anyway Ray if you and I were in business we could probably burn up some serious brain cells with innovation LOL! I welcome your post and everybody’s participation and ideas. I view everybody’s input as the ultimate way to engineer everything we strive for in a machine. Maybe tomorrow I’ll give you my ideas of what wont work on your idea to give you some prospective to consider changes or refinements. I laughed though when I seen those props driven off that main engine it just made my day.
The tire floatys I came up with along time ago and can tell you how to make a temporary set to test real easy.
The 50 inch rule is BS and the Argo Avenger violates it at 60 inches. I’ve written bills that were immediately discussed and passed in congress and I believe I can go to bat for you guys on the rule or having states lax enforcement against AATVs. Ya there are allot of bad politicians but my story made me realize the only way to beat them is working with the good ones so people shouldn’t believe all of them are bad and don’t care. There’s good and bad in everything. Much has been done in the hunting sportsman industry by sportsman and I believe we can do the same thing for our sport. |
Rob Sandera
Intermediate Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 66
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.134.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 05:07 am: |
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And Howard yes 4x4s can cause serious erosion I had a bunch ruin one of my camp roads. While I’ve found amphibious guys may respect property I’ve found the 4 wheelers guys around here don’t. They have drove right though my garden lifted up gates with no trespassing signs and tore a groove in a road so bad when a bad rain hit it wore a four foot ditch in so bad now I have to hire a bulldozer to fix it. That never happened here in 30 years of six wheeling. The last time they were here I chased them down and made it clear all their 4 wheelers would belong to me if I ever seen them on my property again that the dam free for all was over. So I guess I can see where there has to be some kind of rules on everything. My new rule is anybody tearing up my hard work that’s uninvited happens to be in the middle of my shooting gallery.
Thanks guys for all your input I know I was a little off post with this but I want you all to try to enjoy as much of life as you can. Life can change in a minute and no matter what there can always be someone in a worse position then you. I am so thankful for everything I do have. There is a Sport Travel Show in Erie PA this weekend with Argo there. I hope to make it with some Boy Scouts from my neighborhood. I thought about meeting up with some people at the Golden Coral Restaurant but am a little unsure of my schedule now. If anybody’s going let me know. |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.161.111.150
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 08:48 am: |
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Rob, there are a lot of irresponsible people who ride. But in my opinion I would say it's the person & not the ATV of course every situation is going to be different. But there are the guy's who ride the 2 wheel drive racing quads & every one of them I have ever seen do go around spinning in circles and spinning their tires to see how high they can throw a rooster tail or just to muddy up their buddy. Most of the people I have ridden with just have 4 stroke 2wd or 4wd ATV's & are responsible riders. |
Rob Sandera
Intermediate Member
Username: Rob_sandera
Post Number: 67
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 4.91.128.126
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 08:12 am: |
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Ya Howard I understand what your saying and my neighbors are cool with 4 wheelers its guys that come from 100 miles away that think oh you own a bunch of land so I can just reek havoc on it. I was merely pointing out allot of damage can result and a great deal was just from normal riding wearing a trench in the road. Its probably going to cost me 3-4 grand now to rebuild my road. I also can’t have idiots doing 65 MPH through the center of a campground. Who’s going to pay to stay in a place like that. I have people that come around here who look to see if they cant find my car or looks like nobody home they just come trespassing in, some times in large groups. The next ones going to get all the tires shot out and their machine dragged to the fire pile and lit up and I’ll tell them go ahead and try to sue me. I really don’t like the liability of their machines either I have had 4 friends break their backs and 4 their necks. A few years ago somebody crossed my property and on to a neighbors and almost tore their head completely off. The State Police told me about it when I reported some other trespassers. The truth is speed kills because of ignorance. Its like we used to say in boat racing 100 mph boat 20 mph brain. I will be meeting up with Argo today at the trade sport show and taking lots of pictures etc. My trip to the surgeons office did not go well and his arrogance has put my life in danger now. If that’s world class care the world sure is in trouble. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 236
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 76.211.65.64
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 08:51 pm: |
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Since Ray started a new thread I'll stick this in here, for you guys to scratch your heads a little.
I'll tell ya what it is later.
image\(max) |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 237
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 76.211.65.64
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 08:53 pm: |
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\image(max) |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 238
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 76.211.65.64
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 08:55 pm: |
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guess I forgot how to post pics
 |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.160.81.6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 12:27 am: |
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It looks like a remote controlled Max4 |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.160.81.6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 12:52 am: |
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Rob, it sounds like you have been through a lot of crap. My Stepmother died of cancer several years ago she had Colon Cancer they had to remove her rectum etc. and then wear a bag afterwards they told her afterwards she had beat it but then it came back so I don't know if she actually ever did beat it or they were just trying to give her hope. I don't know much about cancer I know there are lots of different kinds I guess. From what I've seen on TV it seems like most of the people that do Chemotherapy overcome the cancer more so than the one's who get Surgery. I also heard that if they cut you open it will just spread I don't know how true that is. My Dad is a firm believer in vitamins he has been taking them most of his life & sold them at one time I don't know that they would be any good at the last minute though as he put my step mother on a lot of them & herbs too. Facing Cancer yourself I'm sure you have heard most everything so I will stop running on and I hope you beat it. I have never been to any of the AATV meets but I'm planning on it if I ever get my project finished & I hope to meet you & lots of other people on this board. Good luck Howard Hoover |
Ray Kohls
Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 02:21 pm: |
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Roger, I remember seeing it somewhere my guess is its either the all hydraulic or all electic motor version of the max4, remote controlled |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 240
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.140.38
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 03:05 pm: |
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I found the Carnegie Mellon Institute, who made the Crusher vehicle listed in "the video thread". Found 2 full screen downloadable videos of it at this site. They also have other vehicles.. this max which was a test platform for their hardware, and a couple other interesting ones.. a little Dragon Runner or something like that, something a soldier can throw through a window and drive around with a camera. Several videos you guys might like.
http://www.rec.ri.cmu.edu/projects/unmanned/index.htm |
Shop Talk: Tech Tips and Q&A section 
Schematic 6x6 Drive Shaft