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Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 71.84.173.219
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 09:54 pm: | 
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Hi,
I recently restored a 1985 Max 2 and installed a 20HP Honda GX620 V-Twin. Everything came together rather well but, had a power issue - when in sticky mud or in snow, it seemed the Max was really bogged down. I wrote to Brandon at realatvs.com and he said to make sure the throttle is opening up all the way when under heavy load.
I replaced the spring that links the throttle cable to the governor lever with a solid piece of wire. I don't think the spring I had installed had enough tension to pull the throttle open when under load.
After the modification, I did a small test where I connected a tow-rope from the bumper of my truck to the Max. I first pulled while the Max tires were on dry pavement - tires wouldn't spin. I then tried when the Max tires were in dirt - I was able to spin them.
My questions: Should I have been able to spin the tires on dry pavement? Is there any other modification that would allow me to have enough torque to do this? Should there be a spring connecting the throttle cable to the governor lever?
Any tips would be helpful.
Thanks,
Mike
Medford, Oregon |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 40
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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check your trans belt tension. if the belt is too long you will loose low end power. The belt should be snug. if you can squeeze the belt together and the inside touches it way too loose.
My Bigfoot works well with about an 3/4 to 1 inch deflection halfway between the pulleys when pushing on the top side of the belt. |
Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 71.84.173.219
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
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Hi Marc,
Thanks for your reply. I think the belt tension is ok. In fact, I'm thinking it may be a little too snug. I can barely get it on and off by turning the transmission-side pully.
Mike |
david berger
Advanced Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 486
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.23.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 09:38 am: |
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mike you do need to controle that govener lever.
it holds moveing parts inside the engine from falling out of position and then bloweing ther the block!
you need a good spring on it so at high speed the weights inside dont fly out and get into the works!
that bypass of yours will not trouble your engine as long as you alwase keep the engine under a load when your reving it.
reving it in nutral may overeve it and destroy the fragile valve train. but it will not over - rev under a load,
strongr valve train and also conecting rods are available threw 600 raceing, or some such place, there are some people here on the board with the phone number, i don't know where it is right now. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.27.205.97
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 04:46 pm: |
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Hey Mike, by what you've said with the governor spring, I think we are on the right track with the throttle not opening properly. I have found the same thing happen with the old Tecumseh engines. They rev high in neutral but are very slow when driving at wide open throttle. Wire the governor open and they run like they should. Your Honda seems to need governor adjustment. It is probably made to run a lawnmower.
The Max will not turn the tires on dry pavement. I have not seen the inside of a Honda small engine but the Briggs governor will never fly apart when unhooked. I ran my '99 Max II without anything attached to the governor arm with no issues. A Max doesn't even need a governor as long as the driver doesn't get careless (run wide open down hill). |
david berger
Advanced Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 488
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.23.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 08:42 am: |
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*BRANDON, THUSFAR YOU HAVE BIN LUCKY, BUT I GOT THAT INFO FROM BOTH FACTORY'S GUYS.
YOU CAN LERN INTERESTING THINGS AT JAMBOREE'S
(oops caps)
first the recreatives engine guy pointed it out on tim schotanus's maxIV, then laiter i chatted up the argo guys about oil cloging the fuel pumps and stuff, including the govener arm.
it dosent have to connect to the carb or lincages at all but must be kept under some spring tention to prevent destuction of block at a high rev.
the valve train however should hold up as long as you don't over do it like you said.
DONT MESS WITH GOVENERS INTERNAL GUTS, KEEP IT SPRUNG! |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 187
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.107.6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 09:41 am: |
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Not to wander off from Mike's Honda engine question, but about Briggs govenors.. I had my govenor disconnected a few years without any spring tension. Had the engine apart this year and got to see inside a twin for the first time. There's a sliding collar on the camshaft between the govenor weights and the fork that's on the govenor shaft. Without any spring tension, the weights pushed that collar out against the engine side cover, around the cam bearing journal. Just a little scoring, no real damage but something unwanted. If you have the cam out, the weights
can be removed by grinding off the rivets that hold the assy onto the camshaft. |
Missouri's Max and Argo Dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Brandon_price
Post Number: 174
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.27.205.109
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 04:31 pm: |
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Roger, I can see that happening with the cam. Maybe in some cases, excessive wear can allow the weights to fly out. I had my engine apart and looked it over very well to see how the governor worked and if it needed anything different when unhooked. I saw no way for it to fall apart, but maybe wear can change that. I ran my modded engine over a year and put on more hours than many riders do in five years. I even tried to blow it up once by holding it wide open on a flat blacktop road. It turned 4800 RPM and was unable to gain any more speed as the valves started to float or the spark missed its cycle. |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 188
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 76.211.64.32
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 05:28 pm: |
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I feel a lot better about the Vanguard engine after seeing it apart and talking to those who race them. I think the floating valve syndrome is a designed in rev limiter.
Valves float at 4500~ replace weak spring retainers and add shims, then good to 5000, but stock cam ran out of breath at 4500 anyway. They make a stronger, 1/8" longer, connecting rod. Shave the 1/8" dish off the top of the stock piston, making it a flat top. The rod adds dependability and adds compression for free. With strong valve springs and a decent cam, replace the stock aluminum intake pushrods for steel exhaust ones, they run a vanguard at 7000 rpm in their racing rider mowers. Stock crank and piston. The guy is a certified briggs mechanic, works for a company who sells small engine performance parts, gets paid to race for a living, and test/thrash new products and parts. My kind of job! |
Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 71.84.173.219
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 10:37 pm: |
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Hi guys,
Thanks for all your feedback. I'm going to take it out over this next 3-day weekend and see how it does in the sticky clay mud with my mod. My top speed last time was probably 7 to 8 mph (ouch).
I'll post back and let everyone know how it went.
Thanks again, guys!
Mike |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 211
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.166.168.53
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 01:43 am: |
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Mike, you should be getting at least 25 MPH as top speed in a Max II. Call the factory, give them your serial number and see if they can tell you if you have a drive pulley spring issue (might be that the old engine revved a lot higher - might have been a two stroke). Make sure both drive and driven pulley are working correctly. Lube the nylon pads on the driven pulley so the torque converter part works correctly (the springs should keep the belt up close to the top at slow speeds) and watch the drive pulley and make sure your belt rides at the outer edge when you have full RPMs. Let's hope that some one didn't change your sprockets and screw up the gearing.
Assuming you get (have) your drive and driven pulleys working correctly, 3600 RPMs on a Briggs engine isn't enough for adequate performance and it probably isn't enough on your Honda engine either. Bump the RPMs up to 4000 and it should run better. |
Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 71.84.173.219
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 10:22 pm: |
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Hi guys,
Just a quick update...it ran AWESOME this weekend in the mud. The only change I made was the one I mentioned in my original post - replaced the main throttle spring with a hard-wire.
I'll have a link up soon with a couple hundred pictures of my restoration project on the old Max which included sandblasting old parts, wiring, painting, new chains, new engine, etc.
Thanks for everyone's feedback!
Mike |
Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 71.84.173.219
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 01:12 am: |
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Pictures are up!
http://picasaweb.google.com/mlbaker2000
Please email or post any comments or feedback.
Mike |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 194
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.109.204
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 11:53 am: |
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I'm worn out from looking at the work you did! |
Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.216.97.110
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 02:27 pm: |
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It was over a span of a couple years, actually. I'd save money, buy some parts, then save again for more parts. I must've made 50 trips to ACE hardware for nuts, bolts, fasteners, etc. It was very tempting at times to go out and finance a new one! |
Mike Maroni
Intermediate Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 89
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 70.104.231.9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 03:26 pm: |
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Mike,
You should be proud of the work you've done it looks great! I did a frame off restoration of my 92 Max IV. I can understand your pain and frustration when working on such a big project. The siren song of bying a new one can be awful powerful when you just whant to have fun with the machine.
A couple of things, our older machines come with the smalle bareings as you know. The weak part is the thin collar. I came up with a fairly decent solution I posted it on this page;
http://www.route6x6.com/discus4/messages/5/20921.html?1157319423
It has worked really well. I just replaced a slightly bent hollow axle and the switch was much easier than the old eccentric collar system. The only thing that was difficult was the outboard collar is under the top frame lip. To fix that I simply drilled a hole in the top of the frame to put the allen wrench down through.
As far as the flat tire I also did David Berger's tubes and screw mod. I have been running this for a couple of months at 2 psi with no problems. It has been one of the best things I've done.
I don't know that much about the driven clutch/ torque converter. Is that spring just a replacement for the old one or an upgrade?
Where did you get the solid axle from? It looks like a factory one.
Have fun!
Mike |
Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 71.84.173.219
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 02:30 pm: |
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I ordered the axle through Brandon who probably got it from the factory.
The new driven spring was put in to match the new drive clutch.
Mike |
Mike Baker
New member
Username: Fiercefritz
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 216.216.97.110
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 02:21 pm: |
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I've posted another short video of me in the recent snow in my driveway:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mlbaker2000 |
Bud
Intermediate Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 167.230.104.90
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 03:53 pm: |
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Fun stuff. We did the same thing in our mowed back pasture this past Monday. The ice storm had the whole place like a skating rink. |
Charlie Richmond
Junior Member
Username: Csrichmond
Post Number: 15
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 69.37.90.30
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 09:59 am: |
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Mike Baker, nice rebuild and nice documentation.
I did an '86 MAX II two years ago, outdoors, under a tent, with a kerosene heater in New England winter weather!
I hurried a bit but only missed a few "nice to do" actions like taking the frame out (not too badly buggered up).
Thanks to guys like you and the folks who keep this board running I was able to do all the work myself and save a couple grand in labor. |
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