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Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 24
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 07:39 pm: | 
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I thought I would start a new thread on the basics. There is allot of knowledge with the 6x6 clan that can help in either building or refurbishing an AATV .
I thought I would start with how a torque converter works. I think everyone has looked at the engine side clutch and understands that the faster the engine revs the tighter the sheaves get and the belt rides up to a larger diameter changing the gear ratio. Now why does the driven pulley have a spring and a ramp (cam)? There are spring only driven pulleys and they are speed sensitive converters. The slower the engine speed the lower the gearing and the belt is on the largest driven diameter. The higher the engine speed the tighter the belt is on the drive pulley and smaller the driven pulley.
So the higher the spring pressure on the driven pulley the higher the engine will have to rev to balance the spring force from the drive converter. Similarly the weights on the drive converter effect the engagement speed and change in ratio.
Now what does the driven converter "cam" have to do with it? This cam is a very clever way to back shift the driven pulley based on load, like going up a hill. The spring loaded driven sheave reacts to the load the vehicle sees by resisting the pull on the belt. This resistance forces works opposite to the belt direction and forces the spring loaded sheave to back down the ramp. |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 230
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.209.98.85
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 09:57 pm: |
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Marc- Excellent description of a common item that is a mystery to most of us. Any maintenance a user can do to keep it working right? |
Mike Cummings
Member
Username: Hydromike
Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 141.149.254.227
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 09:20 am: |
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Ah, another level of complexity! A great explanation, Marc. I thought I had it figured out completely, yet I'm proven wrong again. One thing that's difficult for me to figure out is how to adjust the driven clutch for optimum performance on performance-oriented machines. I've heard the "add another wrap" to the spring argument, and have it engage very quickly, but I haven't had the chance (motivation) to do trial-and-error experiments on it. Drive clutches are relatively easy to figure out, since the engagement RPMs and engagment curves are pretty well documented by tables that Hoffco-Comet provides. But, differences in the driven clutch springs forces the machine to perform quite a bit differently. From what I can tell, the springs on the driven clutch aren't something that's modified as regularly as the drive-clutch springs/weights.
The driven clutches seem to be engaging where I need them to on both racers, but it would be nice to be able to "tweak" them, if someday I decided they weren't exactly what I was looking for. |
Don Kinyon
Member
Username: Oldnatva
Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2002
Posted From: 69.175.14.6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 04:42 pm: |
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Thanks, Marc;
I've read in the manuals how the clutch works, or how it's supposed to anyway. You put it clearly enough so that even I can understand.
Now let's see, if I just turn this thing a few more turns..... |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 09:09 pm: |
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I guess we will call this Chapter 2. This is where this simple looking devise gets complicated. (Drive clutch) When the engine increases speed the weights in the clutch spin out and compress the two clutch sheaves together. The faster the speed, or more the weight we add the more centrifugal force we have to squeeze the belt. At the same time we are adding tension on the belt to pull it deeper into the driven sheave. The cam angle(Helix) and spring wrap on the driven sheave are intended to increase driven sheave belt squeeze as the driven clutch opens. The belt now has an increase in tension or stretching forces. Too much stretching force reduces performance, too little and the belt slips. The deeper it goes into the driven sheave the less the contact area and the possibility for the belt slipping. Slipping loss is felt during acceleration and not so much in top speed as the belt usually bottoms out in the driven pulley. The object is to have adequate belt squeeze on both clutches to transmit all the torque but not too much to impede performance.
(The following is for tower type snowmobile clutch "Comet 102,108 and others") Now if the engine over revs while accelerating the drive clutch, and the acceleration is poor the clutch weights are typically too light. The spring tension on the drive clutch is also a factor but is more of a fine tuning devise. Conversely if the engine bogs or loads up too much the weight may be too much.
I will continue later with the driven clutch. Chapter 3> |
Mike Cummings
Member
Username: Hydromike
Post Number: 32
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 141.149.254.227
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
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Engine bog? What's that? 
Your description of the over-revving is dead on the money, Marc, as far as my Superchief's condition goes. The weights are far too light, and goes nowhere in a hurry. I'm happy with the spring and weight combination on antoher machine, but I don't have any idea which weights I'm using. I knew this would happen when I put it together; I was simply impatient and wanted to get it moving. The 102C is a thing of beauty as far as calibration goes,with the spring and weights superbly accessible, and combinations are well documented to try different set-ups.
Keep the Chapters coming!
~mike |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 231
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 209.226.251.110
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 07:55 pm: |
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Marc- See Mike Cumming's Last sentence. Ditto for me. Thanks W.Philip Cox |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 09:58 pm: |
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Chapter 3 (Driven Clutch) There are 3 variable components to the driven clutch. The first is the sheave diameter The outside diameter will determine the overall gear ratio of the vehicle. The larger the sheave the greater the pulling power or torque will be transmitted to the transmission, while a smaller sheave will have a higher speed and greater over drive ratio. Large converter may have no overdrive ratio. Larger converters can typically handle greater horse power due to its larger belt contact area.
(A side note) Greater torque may have more of a negative effect on the transmission than higher speed. Higher torque means higher internal loads on a gear transmission which create more friction between gears and more displacement forces ( shaft deflections, misalignment). Higher transmission speeds typically have lubrication and wear issues.
The second variable component is the helix or cam angle. The angle is the slope the floating sheave buttons slides on, and is measured parallel to the sheave. The steeper the slope the greater the cam angle. Changing to a steeper angle allows the driven sheave to shift out faster and slow the engine speed down. Changing to a shallow angle( lets say 44deg to 38 deg) increases the engine speed and slows the shift out.
The spring tension effects the engine speed. By decreasing the spring tension by either changing springs or reducing the spring wrap you can reduce the engine speed for the same load. So if your vehicle is accelerating at wide open throttle and the engine is revving higher than it’s peak power you can reduce the spring wrap to lower the engine speed.
There still may be performance issues due to vehicle weight, tire selection and gearing that may be corrected by a change in sprockets. Unfortunately the manufacturers of these machines haven’t considered this, where as it is common to change sprocket ratios on snowmobiles. |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 27
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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Here is a couple of points to obtain the best performance for the CVT transmission.
The belt should be tight, but not enough to creep the machine.
The belt should be aligned properly. The pulleys have to be parallel. They may have an offset depending on the machine.
The belt should sit slightly outside the driven sheave when stopped and at idle. If the belt is too loose and looks to sit lower than top of the driven sheave you may be able to remove a spacer or washer that sits on the shaft between the sheaves (Argo Powerblock)
The drive sheave should only have .010 to .020 side clearance to the belt. This is measured with the belt pushed against one side of the sheave. Comet 102 and 108 clutches can be adjusted with shims between the drive spider and moving sheave. Adding shims also changes the clutch engagement.
Some Salsbury type units can be adjusted by adding an additional snap ring or shim washer between the drive spider and the snap ring retainer that holds the drive spider in place. Other Salsbury have a threaded on drive spider which requires some machine work to move the drive spider closer to the fixed sheave |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 153
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.135.159
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 08:05 am: |
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Thanks for a great in depth write up, Marc. |
Bob Shelver
Member
Username: Curly
Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.71.177.85
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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Marc I too agree with you explanation of the system. I have been doing this for a while and on several occasions tried to explain the process to a few and I only partially got the message across, however your explanation was excellent. I got my experience when I was racing snowmobiles in the mid 70's and when I became an Argo dealer years later it was very evident the machine needed some tuning for performance at altitude for maxim torque. Still many are looking for a quick fix for lack of horsepower and the process will only assist you in getting the most of what you have to begin with, and this is a tuning procedure and experimentation gets you the best bang for your time. I have learned something new many times such as like you described with too light of weights against too much spring tension in the driven we can go to far either direction and loose performance. Bottom line if they are going to tune they need to get a tachometer and make notes as to how the RPM changes from engagement through the shift up and the down shift. I try and get these small engines to maintain 3400 RPM, rev to 4000 to 4100 then shift and settle at 3200 to 3400. I do this for a snow track application but the machine response better when the engine is not lugging down, and I encourage the novice operator to get used to powering through their turns. Now Rogers machine is a whole new ball game, and he will have a good fuzy on clutching when he is finished. His sounds like he has a little Harley under the hood. |
Keith Snyder
Junior Member
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2006
Posted From: 207.114.251.250
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 01:53 pm: |
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Off subject.What is the smallest aatv made,length,width? |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.141.61
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 02:41 pm: |
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Bob, after picking your brain in e mails, it's turned out my engine has enough, actually more low end than it had, so I havn't needed to touch the clutches yet, other than squirt some powdered graphite on them regularly. Other than the engine work, a new drive clutch has been the best performance increase I got. The old one, the weights mushroomed and the weight blocks were broken and spread. Kept my rpm's too low. Happened slow over time, didn't notice it. |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 31
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 09:33 pm: |
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Thanks all for the nice remarks. I have other technical subjects to cover. I can discuss designing a hydraulic drive for an AATV,or calculating the HP/ torque required for a specific grade and traction condition.
I get involved at my job designing industrial and mobile hydraulic systems.
On a side note I think the way to design a hydraulic AATV would be to drive the pump drive with a CVT. If any one is interested we can go through the exercise.
Keith, Off subject but an interesting question. Action age made a small Scrambler called a Gotcha that was 4 wheel skid steer and worked quite well. There is a new 4 wheel skid steer that looks like a mini jeep and that is small also. They both float. There were some small 3 wheel but 2 wheel drive machines that floated but were not true aatv's |
Keith Snyder
Junior Member
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2006
Posted From: 207.114.251.250
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 01:43 pm: |
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Thanks for that information Marc,I was just curious.I have been looking at all makes and models of 6x6's lately to see what my next one will be after I finish the one I have. |
liflod
Advanced Member
Username: Liflod
Post Number: 115
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 151.201.211.103
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 02:44 pm: |
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Here is the T-20 description that I posted previously on another thread. Lance
How a T-20 skid steer transmission works.
The T-20 is actually 2 transmissions in one housing joined by a common input shaft. Only one side will be discussed as the other side works the same way. The heart of it is a planetary gear arrangement consisting of a sun gear, planet gears, a planet carrier and a ring gear. The sun gear is in the center and it is surrounded by the planetary gears that are held together by the planet carrier. The ring gear is surrounding the planetary gears. Both the ring gear and the planet carrier are the drums that can be held stationary by the bands. The other pieces that make up the transmission are the output shaft, gear selector and the bands.
The sun gear is driven by the input shaft. It is always turning when the engine clutch is engaged. In forward gear the output shaft is connected to the planet carrier. When the control stick is pushed forward, the band is applied that holds the ring gear stationary. The sun gear turns the planetary gears which causes them to “walk around” the ring gear which is held stationary. Since the planet carrier is connected to the planetary gears, the planet carrier turns and so does the output shaft. When the control stick is pulled back, the ring gear band is loosened and the planet carrier band is tightened causing the planet carrier and output shaft to stop spinning. Since the band is not tight around the ring gear and the band holds the planet carrier stationary, the sun gear will rotate the planet gears and they will spin the ring gear inside the housing.
When reverse is selected, the output shaft is connected to the ring gear. So in reverse when you pull the stick back, the planet carrier is held stationary; the sun gear drives the planetary gears which spin the ring gear the opposite direction of the sun gear.
For a good picture of a planetary set , print out the picture on the Web site “How stuff works” Print a few pictures so you can put directional arrows on the gears and work through it with my description. One thing that is not shown is the planet carrier that connects all the planetary gears to a common shaft and drum.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/gear-ratio4.htm
http://www.howstuffworks.com/inside-sd2.htm |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 32
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 08:23 pm: |
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Lance: Good to see additional info added to the Thread. There are a couple of other interesting aspects to the T20. It will run just as well in reverse as forward. My first trip with my rebuilt Hustler, one of the relined bands failed and I lost power to one side. We had at least 3 miles to get off the mountain so I sat on the nose and drove it in reverse going up hill and forward going down hill. The other nice aspect of the T20 is there is a reduction in the transmission that eliminates the large sprockets and multiple reductions found in some other vehicles. I would also bring up the 6 wheel drive vs 3 wheel drive issue but that has more to do with the skill level of the driver. I enjoy both my Hustler and Bigfoot |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 164
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.128.105.17
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 09:46 pm: |
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I'll give Lance a pat on the back, too. I've been through many automatic trans but havn't seen a diagram of a T 20 with enough detail to see how it worked. |
Keith Snyder
Junior Member
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.8
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 08:25 am: |
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I thank you for that information.I like that machine. |
Joshua McCastle
Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 32
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.181.102.85
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 05:52 pm: |
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Uh, it's not a drive clutch it is a torque convertor. I've had arguments about this with some snowmobilers that didn't want to read. If you doubt it, take a look in Webster's Dictonary under clutch, and then under torque convertor. |
Jerry R. Nuss, Max Dealer in Illinois
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 400
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 70.106.195.27
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 06:22 pm: |
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Joshua, I don't know exactly where you are coming from with this. But I'd still use the terminology drive clutch to refer to the centrifugal clutch attached to the engine. On the driven side, the unit attached to the transmission, I'd call it a torque converter. |
Joshua McCastle
Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 33
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.181.102.85
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 07:53 pm: |
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I had a momentary lapse of reason. Yes, the clutch on the engine is the centrifugal clutch, and the pulley on the transmission is the torque convertor. A few post above, they are calling the torque convertor the "DRIVEN CLUTCH". I have noticed in other places they are calling it the secondary clutch. It seems that I forgot to add this to my post. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. With 2 kids, little sleep, and work the mind doesn't work 100% |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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The terms drive and driven clutch were used for the purposes to simplify the explanation for those who were unfamiliar with the components. Torque converter is a poor name for the driven end of the system anyway,(That's if you look up "torque" and "converter" in your Webster) but its widely accepted. . Constant velocity transmission is the best name for the 2 pulleys and belt arrangement that is used. The driven end can be either a torque sensing varible speed drive or a speed sensitive varible speed drive depending if there is a cam (helix) used to control the sheave tension. |
Joshua McCastle
Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 34
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.181.102.85
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 06:40 pm: |
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Regardless if it is a CVT, the torque convertor (which you can look up as one word), is in no way a clutch. Does it ever disengage? |
Mike Cummings
Member
Username: Hydromike
Post Number: 41
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 141.149.254.227
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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I'm confused how this thread has degraded into an argument of semantics, like most other threads. Marc started the informative discussion with the best of intentions. All of our machines have these "parts" whether you call them drive/driven clutches, torque convertEr, or whatever. It's accepted terminology and suffices for the purposes of the discussion.
Save the arguments for the fruitless Argo vs. Max thread.
~mike |
Joshua McCastle
Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.181.102.85
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 05:13 pm: |
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Why don't we just call our amphibs ATVs instead of AATVs? I guess anything is accepted if you don't pay attention to the details. |
Don Kinyon
Member
Username: Oldnatva
Post Number: 40
Registered: 04-2002
Posted From: 69.175.14.6
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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Well, they were ATVs before the introduction of Honda's three-wheeled aberration. As far as I'm concerned, they still are. |
Marc Stobinski
Member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 11:06 pm: |
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JM I don't know what your net experience is with amphibious ATV's but our amphibious machines are ATV's since the 60's. Honda ripped off the term when they introduced their toy trike so they could compete in the same market.
I am sure we all understand you want to put some input into the discussion and welcome your technical in-site. Perhaps you have a topic you are fluent in that you can start. |
Joshua McCastle
Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 24.11.126.201
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 01:30 am: |
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I guess we can just call everything a thingamabob, then no one can be offended? If you are really trying to explain something it helps to use correct terminology instead of slang. |
liflod
Advanced Member
Username: Liflod
Post Number: 122
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 151.201.211.103
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 09:21 am: |
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Of course I have to add my 2 cents.
If you go to Comets website and look at their description of their "Torque Conveter" They mention the drive clutch and the driven clutch. Maybe you should send the manufacuter a message and tell them they don't know what they are talking about. |
david berger
Advanced Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 485
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.23.104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 09:25 am: |
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there you go,it is ecepted and proper terminolagy.
there are alot of things man has named wich are called other things by people with difering I.Q.'s
DEAL WITH IT. (my 2 cents.) |
Joshua McCastle
Member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 205.181.102.85
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 05:21 pm: |
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For each explanation that is given, the torque convertor is being called something different. In the first one it is being called a torque convertor, the second one a secondary clutch, and the next one a CVT. For trying to explain something that is VERY simple, you can confuse many people by calling something by many different names. As far as proper, no it's not proper. Do you really think that a company that sells stuff is going to tell their customers that they can't call their product something it's not? |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 189
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.137.67
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 06:51 pm: |
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My opinion is Josh has contributed nothing of redeeming mechanical or social value in this thread. Only argument and confusion where there is no need for it. No one else has a problem with the terminology used besides him. Different manufacturers call parts different names. Argo never used torque converter in their terminology. This is not a snomobile forum either. What's important is how the components work, what's not important is arguing about component names, which vary by manufacturer. |
Josh
New member
Username: Mccastlej
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 24.11.126.201
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 12:37 am: |
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Everyone has their own opinion. I think if you are trying to explain something to someone that doesn't know; that you should not start off calling it one thing, and then in the next discussion you are calling it another. I'm not causing any confusion, in fact, I would say the exact opposite. Regardless of what forum it is, they are the same components. This drive system was used in snowmobiles for years before an AATV was ever invented. If you want something of mechanical value, as soon as the clutch engages, you can think of the drive as a pair of pulleys that are constantly changing their diameter. The torque convertor never disengages as the centrifugal clutch does disengage from the drive belt. |
Brian in FABULOUS Utah
Member
Username: Brianprovo
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.177.37.10
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 01:58 pm: |
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Took the family up our cabin in Central Utah and spent about five days, the Argo is the only way up and it sure makes life easy. We found this bolt, which is hollow, in the boot pan. Anyone know where it goes? It is about 3/4 of an inch long with a diameter of 5/8 of an inch  |
Brian in FABULOUS Utah
Member
Username: Brianprovo
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.177.37.10
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 01:59 pm: |
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Oh, it's also hollow.... |
Bud
Intermediate Member
Username: Budtx
Post Number: 69
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 167.230.104.90
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 11:24 am: |
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Tranny fill plug with a breather ? |
liflod
Advanced Member
Username: Liflod
Post Number: 125
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 151.201.211.103
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 11:53 am: |
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Do the Argos use steel rigid brake line? It looks like a brake line fitting. |
Shop Talk: Tech Tips and Q&A section