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Mike Maroni
Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 30
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 71.240.230.164
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 09:51 am: | 
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I have spent considerable time and $ this past year restoring this 92 Max IV. I have replaced all of the bearings, chains, tires and rims, and most of the sprockets. Every bolt and nut on the drive train has been replaced. So here is my problem:
Water leaks:
I used a product around the flanges called 3M strip caulk. It was recommended to me be R.I. instead of the old rubber gaskets. I can't tell if the water is leaking because of this or from the bearings. The bearings I used were from tractor supply company and probably are not of the highest quality. I used a grease called Red and Tacky from NAPA. So I don't know if the water leaks are caused by the caulk, cheap bearings, the wrong grease. I'm considering using a cast iron pillow block type bearing in the future.
Tires and rims:
I purchased a tire and rim package. I got the 21 inch Carlisle tires because of my 16 hp engine. Well the tires didn't hold up very well to a rocky logging trail. I now have 4 tires with gashes in the sidewall. I think these tires should only be used in light duty applications, Fred Sowerwine recommended against using them I should have listened to him!!!. I had one tire blow initially and that caused a chain reaction with the others while I was limping it home. I should have stopped and walked back to my camp and repaired the first tire. However I didn't (getting late, 3 miles from camp, buggy etc..). I wasn't doing anything radical or aggressive just trying to negotiate the trail. I 'm thinking of getting something with more ply rating. Any suggestions ? I was thinking of the gator tires. Id like to hear from people that have used these tires. I have heard they don't do much in the water but would like a first hand account. Also when I do get new tires I think I'll put tubes in them right from the start. As well as using bead adhesive and even David Bergers idea of the self tapping screws on the back side of the rims. Any opinions on this would be appreciated.
So I started with an older Max that had leaks and bad tires spent a bunch of money and time for a vehicle with leaks and bad tires.
I have really enjoyed the capabilities of this machine when it's been working. I really need some advice on how to approch these problems
Thanks in advance
Mike |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 386
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.92.214
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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iv had some thoughts over the years,
but never the cash to try em out,
and since aluminums goin for almost as much as gold it could get costly to build special outer bearing holders that also encorperate a grease seal,
lets ask ourselfes, do we realy need sphiracle outer bearings?
if not then a housing with a grease seal is easyer to make right?
oh i know our outers are cam locks huh,
but do we realy need them ether, prehaps not,
a corectly fitted drive tube that is within 1/8" of inside of outer bearings inner race would keep axel located the same.
i thought about haveing my local machine shop cut me some 1/4" steal flangets to hold my bearings cause the stampings i have get beat out of shape,
there loose as hell in no time,
i realy admire the factorys bearing extentions,
with these things who needs sphirical bearings at all?
you wont need to self align a slightly bent axel in one of these rigs - they wouldent bend,
or so im imagining.
so if the base of a extended bearing rig of our own design was a non sphiricle bearing this base might also house a grease fitting too huh,
it wouldent leak case out ferther from the base we have our outer bearing wich should reduce the likelyhood of a bent axel rolling ecentricly in our grease seal ~ thus causeing a leak.
anyone ready for some asprin yet?? |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 176
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.166.168.53
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 12:07 pm: |
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Mike, On the water leaks, 1st off, I would double check the bearing flange bolts. 95% of the time, water is going in around the threads. If you cannot have the machine in the water with the floor boards out so you can see where the water is coming from, you can block the machine up and put some water inside the machine watching as it goes up to determine where it is leaking. I put water to the bottom bolts and check; then to the bottom of the axle; then to the middle of the axle; then to the top of the axle; then to just below the top bolts; then above the top bolts You can tighten the bolts as needed with water in the machine and you can also grease it with water in the machine.
If grease comes out between the flanges, you probably have a grain of something keeping the flanges apart (or a rough spot on a flange). RI has a paper gasket that they use now between the flanges. Caulk (or a similar product) can be used between the flanges as long as it is applied carefully only on the contact area and you let it dry before you grease (make sure it is something that will allow you to separate the flanges at a later date). I also use caulk on my axle flange bolts whenever I have them out for any reason.
On the tires, the Rawhide III (with at least 1 PSI in them and not over 3.5 PSI - I run about 2.25 PSI in none K-rim wheels) have given very good service. I personally would make sure my beads were completely free of any lubricant or rough spots and if that didn't work, I would glue my beads. I would not ruin my tires by using screws unless absolutely nothing else worked. I also would not put tubes in my tires because if the tire spins on the rim it will cut the valve stem off (I had that happen several times when using tubes with tracks before the K-rim was born). I have no experience with anything except the upgraded factory tires (and think any of the factory tires, except the Nankang Chevron, will give excellent service) and I think you will get a very rough ride with more than two ply tires. Your 1992 has the smaller outer bearings and non skid steer tires will put extra stress on your bearings. Keeping the right air pressure in your tires is important for a reasonable ride as well as axle and bearing longevity. |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 389
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.92.214
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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hi fred, the screw thing dosent ruin the tires, there just short enoph not to go threw into the inside, just there to keep the tire from spining on the rim and damaging the tubes, like you have expireanced, i have done wheeles with the setup and used them with screws for several years, thus far only wether cracks and rocks have damaged my tires, and after you can put your fist threw the holes in them the area where the screws held them is just fine, only a screw hole on one side, no tearing or any such damage.
this is a very reziliant part of the tires.
as to the glue or bead adhesave, the ones i tryed from time to time were nothing more than soft stuff like rtv and let go without a fight, usless!
however there is one thing i never tryed, somebody mentioned in a post way back at the begining of the discussion board, that was shalaqe or shalak shalack, aargh! varnish,LOL
well it sounds like it would harden up any way.
but i never tryed it. |
Eddie Beddingfield (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 207.117.33.134
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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Mike ,I recommend NOT using tubes they will move around and pull the valve stems in.If you get the ones with retainer nuts, it will just eventually tear stem from tube.On the tires maybe you had them aired up a little to much.These tires are foregiving if they are soft especially on a light machine like yours.You can go heavier but there will be a drastic reduction in ride quality.You said you were just negotiating the trail but the slower you take a rock ,tire can flex and not puncture. It is most definitely your bearings,there may be a seal on the bearing but they are only water resistant not waterproof..Eddie |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 179
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.166.168.53
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 01:40 pm: |
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Hi david, My way of doing things is to keep to the original design whenever possible. I know the people who make things put a lot of time and effort into making something work at a practical price and most of the time if things are kept as originally designed, they work well. Tire lubricant was not designed with low pressure tires in mind. Tire guys raise their eyebrows at screws and things. Tire design does not often include holes in wheels and screws in tires and I structure all my modifications so a different owner will have no qualms or problems with what he sees. Some people object to holes in rims and screws holding the tire on (and if it is not disclosed could use that to back out of a sale). I know screws don't really ruin anything; it is just a perception and is no longer "as it was".
Most tire seal problems are related to lubricant first and then to nicks in the bead second. Nicks can be repaired with black silicone on a clean tire. A glue or bead adhesive will only work if the rim is clean and there are no nicks in the bead (maybe not really doing much). As hard as some beads can be to break, I think the original design can work. An aside (for others as is most of this post): slime (or other similar product) should only be used in a tire that has a good secure bead as it will make a bead leak worse. |
Mike Maroni
Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 31
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 71.240.230.164
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 02:01 pm: |
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Thanks guys for the posts. Fred and Dave you guy's are such a wealth of info Eddie too. I appreciate all the input.
Regarding the tires. What pisses me off is that they are new tires. Some other info is that none of them lost their beads that I can see. All of the failures are sidewall gashes. So slipping the tires was apparently not the issue. I know a higher ply tire would be a rougher ride but so was driving home with only two good tires!!!
Also the air pressure was at 3 lbs per tire. I checked it before riding with my low pressure tire gauge.
I still have 4 old tires (rawhide III's) that are just ok condition. I have all 6 old rims. They look like the original rims and don't appear to be double bead lock. the reason I replaced them was these were slipping and losing beads
So my thoughts are buy 2 more rawhide III's, 6 tubes and glue and screw them using my old rims. That way if it doesn't work I'm only out for the two tires. I'm really gun shy about plunking down a bunch of cash for 6 new tires only to wreck them the first time out.
David:
what size, type, etc screw did you find works the best. If you still have the picture of how you did it let me know.
I'm willing to try the tube, screw, glue setup to see how it works, I'll let you know how it works out. I think if the tires are prevented from slipping then the concerns about using tubes would be fixed and you could still keep riding with a sidewall gash.
Fred,
I'll try your method to find where I'm leaking. Thanks for the idea |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 180
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.166.168.53
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 03:10 pm: |
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Mike, Do you know what made the gashes? Sharp rocks, junk, etc. will probably cut any tire sidewall. Your idea should work fine. Put the two new tires in the middle and the little extra circumference should not interfere with chain adjustment or cause extra wear (might run then at a quarter or half PSI less than the worn tires. It is possible you can find two used tires over this forum.
If you were to try to seat your old tires and rims the regular way, you would need to sand and repaint the rims so the bead area is smooth and uniform (no dings, dips or drips) and maybe just a little larger diameter. By using the tubes and screws, you should be able to make it work just as they are.
I have some new tubes that I bought to use with tracked machines that might be a good deal. Tubes were no longer needed after the K-rims so they sit in my parts room. Email me with the price tubes will cost you and give me your address and I will see if I can save you some money taking shipping into account if you might be interested in that. My email is in my profile or on my web site. |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 390
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.67.197
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 04:10 pm: |
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1/2",
1/8' or so is lost in the rim leaveing 3/8" to eventualy penetrate into bead of tire but not threw the other side. you need to mesure your tires bead thicness at the rim hight you will drill threw to be shur 1/2" or 7/16 is best oridganal screw size and leaves the remaining screw shorter than what tire thickness remains.
first i tryed self taping screws, they drove threw the rims great but take a little time to settle into the tire, they hold ok to start though,
next i drilled some with the self tappers and then replaced them with some pan head sheet metal screws due to the sheet metal screws nice point, they also took time to settle in but it was less time.
both worcked fine,however i found they are in there for life so i recomend only on one side of rim so tube can be maintained without fear of them teeth geting you or the tube.
i drove them with comon bit driver,
bought screws with heads the same size as dril bit driver for this reson 5/16"
but you can use 1/4" bit driver and a 5/16" socket
i just got the package out of my van,
it says 10-16x1/2 hex washer self-drilling screws zinc.
the rim pics have bin wiped from my pc when i upgraded my operating system, aparently it dident get on the backup copy i made, i might have it on a flopy some place, anyway look on route6x6 photo albums and theres a pic there some place of the screws threw the rims |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 181
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.166.168.53
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 04:24 pm: |
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David's tire pics are in the "how to helpful hints" section (about 2/3rds down the page) with link off the home page of Route6x6 |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 391
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.67.197
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 04:47 pm: |
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ooh i agree this is an end user mod,
i love modifyeing things,
the idea is old one though,
used by folks who are looking for more than the designed in prformance from things,
much of everthing that exists today comes from trying mods on existing things.
you see it done on raceing cars and bikes, i saw pics of special quad rims for racers but could never aford em,
one of my favoret pass times when im at aatv events is goin rown and looking it the varyous ways people make there vehicles unique.
i have sean winches frount and rear, yes rear! beter than tht 2 people i met had the rear ones mounted inside with only the roler fering on the outside! on a maxIV, winches were mounted on a plate sandwiched between body halfs and from one side to the other.
also on a maxIV i saw a slit in dash bord aprox 5 inches by 1 inch wide ligned with an autobody edge thingy, like factory uses,
it was to view the gas tank as a sight gage! wow!
you can get great ideas as well as view some realy bad one's LOL
i cant tell you how many times people stoped to tell me how they loved the trunk on my maxII,
not as many thought the screen in my engins air cooling exaust that i use to heat food was a good idea.
some people add tons of lights, yah even police strobes and sirens, whats up with that??
its alot of fun to check out all the other vehicles at the events.
sometimes i see screws in peoples rims too!
lots of times i try to get away with asking why,HEH HEH |
Rogersmith
Advanced Member
Username: Rogersmith
Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 70.234.48.184
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 07:49 pm: |
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Mike, if you have k-rims, another set of different tires would probably be the end of your problems. Not that I don't like to glue and screw, my argo front beads have machine screws through the wheel and tire bead with washers and nuts inside. And a shot of Slime to seal the threads! |
Marc Stobinski
New member
Username: Jerseybigfoot
Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2000
Posted From: 68.193.116.132
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 09:27 pm: |
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check to see if the side wall tire cut was caused by the edge of the rim as the tire flattens out going over an rock or tree. I have chevrons on K rims which has the edge rolled back into the hub and never had a problem. the older rims have the bead edge facing out. |
Mike Maroni
Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 32
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 71.161.41.88
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 01:24 pm: |
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David Berger,
Something I was thinking about today in reference to a better bearing. You mention the bearing extenders used for the tracks. I wonder if iI could get those only. just for the improved bearing design as well as the axle protection. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer
Advanced Member
Username: Fred4dot
Post Number: 182
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 216.166.168.53
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 02:38 pm: |
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Mike,
The bearing cages will not help your present leaks as the same bolts that hold your flanges together anchor the bearing cages to the body and your present bearing will still be exposed to the water. Also, the bolt pattern changed in 1995 when the new bigger outer bearing was put into production. You would need to check with RI or Richard to make sure they have bearing cages that fit the old bolt pattern. The axle needs to be pulled to install a bearing cage. The extra bearing and support will help you keep from bending axles.
My suggestion (if you have determined that the leak is not bolt or grease related - meaning it is coming through the bearing) would be to buy a bearing from RI and see if it stopped the leak. Keep the box or write down the bearing make and number (actually, I would try to find a local supplier for the same bearing before I installed it); If the RI supplied bearing stops the leak, I would replace the other five (or whatever is leaking) making sure I had the exact same thing (or a guarantee that I could bring it back if it leaked) if I bought them from someone other than RI. I have found that all parts are not equal and the actual cost of the part is not the only thing to consider because the time to dismantle and re-install are more of the project than the part. |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 396
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.67.197
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 02:40 pm: |
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its defenatly a good idea, it would lessen the liklyhood of a bent axel about 90%,
the extra bearing and it's flangets might decreas the load on your center bearing (at hull) prehaps helping to prevent the flangets grip on sphirical bearing from getting sloppy, and thus leaking,
but some water will still try to get into your hull bearings dust seals becaus it is part of the hull when your in the water serfice tention will be at same preshur agenced the dust seal as anywhere els on hull to hold your machine up out of the water, it is this suport from serfice tentionm that floats your machine and may come to several pounds per squair foot psi agenced that dust seal, once water contaminates your bearing it will degrade.
but the outer bearing in the extention has less liklyhood of failing, oddly enoph cause water is on both sides, equel psi,
anyway mike many people find a builge pump is an easy and cheep mod, who cairs if it leaks |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 397
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.67.197
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 02:57 pm: |
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ok yes you need to get bearing extentions that match your existing flangets bolt patteren, but i used to only get 1 year on a bearing before it leaked water, but thats cause i actualy used my machine in the water sometimes, now brandon spent his first year cursing my insistance that bearings only lasted me a year before leaking badly, till his year was up and....you guessed it, his were dead too! all these parts are transitory, there on there way some place,LOL the scrap heap!
we just enjoy em while we can!!
if we dont improve on the desige we should just exept this to be true.
otherwise like hydralice brakes what harm is there to dreem?
dreem till one day marc or someone else can show us a better way,LOL
my dreem will still be real steal flangets cut from 1/4" stock on a milling machine.
so at no time in the future will my bearings ever be sloppy and leak from arround the outside again!!
now get the bearing cages you want most, if you wish to upgrade it will also require re-drilling your body and fraim and recreatives are aquainded with the parts you need to convert to the bigger bearings and all that that might go with the newer style cages, they have ocationaly sold the parts to people converting, i have met same at humphrey and olean rideing events.
if i had cash id do it in a hartbeat or two! |
Mike Maroni
Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 71.161.41.88
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 03:43 pm: |
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Fred,
I've started the disassembly process and have three of the axles out. (I've gotten very proficient at extracting an axle) These bearing were replaced over the winter and I have roughly 20 hrs on them. They were purchased at tractor supply company. Here is what I found so far: all three look like I put too much grease in them and probably blew out the seal. One bearing actually fell apart in my hand. I think this was a result of my limping it back home with the flat tires. The reason I bought these was actually not the cost but I could drive 10 min and get them right off the shelf. So I just recently found a quality bearing distributor about 1/2 hr from my house. He may have some ideas I'll let everyone know what I find out. Even if it's a better quality bearing it'll probably be better.
I think that a majority of my problem stems from not doing extra things to water proof (the bolt holes etc) then when the leaked I probably put too much grease through them (live and learn). With that said while I have all the axles out I was thinking about better design. Hence thinking about the bearing cages. So do the cages retain the hull bearing and have another bearing at the tip of the cage?
David,
You mentioned people converting to the large bearing design. I what would that entail? I would think making the axle hole larger would come close to the existing bole holes. How do the deal with that? |
david berger
Senior Member
Username: Davidrrrd
Post Number: 398
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 72.72.58.228
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 03:51 pm: |
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you dont open that hole any, the new design is only diferent via 4 bolt pateren you must drill the body and fraim to instal. the cam lock portion of bearings thicker and dosent fail as easaly as older ones, yes end of cage has a bearing right out near hub and suports hub well out there, then you still have one at hull and you might have inner bushing or inner bearing, you can upgrade from inner bushing to an inner bearing if you like also |
liflod
Intermediate Member
Username: Liflod
Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 151.201.211.103
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 04:16 pm: |
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I have looked at upgrading my old Max IV with the larger bearings. It will be a large PITA to use the larger bearings. The best way to upgrade the bearing is to have some aluminum spacers machined to bolt to the existing holes and space out the new bearing with countersunk bolts to secure the new larger flangettes so you wouldn't have to enlarge the holes in the frame and body. I went as far as buying the larger bearings and flangettes to modify mine and after looking at how much work it would take, I decided against it. |
Mike Maroni
Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 34
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 71.161.41.88
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 05:55 pm: |
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thanks for the info liflod If you did the spacers you would have more places to possibly leak h2o from.
David I already upgraded to inner bearings this winter. Also I alreay have a builge pump installed. Although I have it located in the middle rear under the t-20 and for it to work there has to be alot of water in there. I'm thinking of going to a dual pump in each chain channel if i can figure out where to put them |
Mike Maroni
Member
Username: Micmac
Post Number: 36
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 162.83.80.100
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 08:33 am: |
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talked to a bearing distributor and he recommended a Browning bearing for the outer bearings. He said this bearing is heavy duty and has better seals for contaminated environments. One difference is that it is a double set screw and not the eccentric locking collars. He also said that the eccentric collars are for agricultural applications and are designed to run in one direction. Running it in the opposite direction tends to loosen the collars. He said the setscrew set up will be beefier and thus getting rid of the problem of breaking the collar with older smaller bearings.
What do you guys think? The only ngative I see is that the set screws would be spinning on the outside of the machine and could be damaged unlike the flush set screws |
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