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BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: | 
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I'm tired of the pins falling out of the diamond shifters on a T20. Per the maintenance manual, these are "designed to fail" and all I can say is it seems to meet the design specs frequently.
I understand the purpose of the design, but it seems to me that if the drum was made out of rubber for a proper give, that would protect the shift collar from breaking, make it easier to shift, and end this failure point.
Does anyone have a suggestion? |
liflod (Liflod)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Is the pin just falling out? Is it getting bent? If you are just replacing the pin, how are you securing it to the diamond?
There only a little pressure applied to the pin, if you get everything into alignment before shifting. Do you come to a complete stop before shifting? Do you just jamb the shifter into gear or do you pull back on the laterals (if they are spring loaded) before shifting? In my Attex's , I don't have spring loaded laterals, so while I am shifting , I rev the motor slightly and push the laterals forward a little to get the transmssion spinning, then the shifter pops right into gear. I pull back on the laterals when going intoreverse. If it doesn't go easy, don't force it. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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BrettBBonner, I do have a suggestion, but you are not going to like it. Slow down in your shifting and have patience; rock the machine with your body weight if the gears aren't lined up. Regardless of what the shift collar is made of, the gears cannot slide until they are lined up and if the shift collar pin doesn't break, a tooth will have to come off inside. It serves the same purpose as a master link in a chain and if it isn't the weak link (it is about the cheapest part in the tranny drive), something else will be. There is no reason to break a shift collar. Shifting the T-20 can be frustrating, but forcing it will only break parts. There are thousands of T-20's being used all over the world and very few break. I might add that it isn't easy to reef hard enough to break a shift collar - the linkage bar will usually bend first. It is usually the result of a continual pattern of hard shifts that wears a flat spot in the pin and eats it up enough to fail. |
Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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The only time I have seen those shifters fail is simply because of abuse. The pins will not 'fall out' because they are pressed in. If yours fall out that means you have defective parts. I have seen a loose pin on a 20 year old machine that still didn't come out. They are designed to break when someone tries to jam it in gear. They are extremely tough and won't fail when used correctly. Basically, if your tranny won't shift, rock the machine or bump the throttle until it will shift smoothly. It is non-syncronized so if the shift collar is not in line with the drum, it will not shift so don't force it. When they are lined up the gears will mesh easily. |
BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Thanks guys, but I can assure you I take care of the machine and know how to shift. I rock back and forth to line up the gears for a smooth shift while varying the shifter and throttle and moving the laterals. But when you have 4 people in the machine and sometimes on a hill when you need to engage a brake, rocking is hardly an option. Ditto for when you are stuck in the mud. And because of this poor design, you can't let someone drive your Max without some significant shift training. My troubles started when I let a friend drive it. While he as trained in the Max, he isn't mechanically astute. He got stuck and couldn't rock, so he couldn't shift.
Getting stuck is a common occurance in a Max, especially if the tires are reversed. Shifting to reverse to get unstuck is equally common. You can't rock when you are stuck.
Being a mechanical engineer and a good mechanic, I've rebuilt many a transmission including new bands on this T20 two months ago. Mechanically, it's fine. It's the design and the design is bad. You can tell when the pin is forced out. The bottom of the drum around the hole is bent. In the last failure, the pin just fell out as the drum bottom was not damaged (indicating it was not forced out).
From the T20 manual it says something like the "diamond shifter accounts for 90% of all transmission failures." Sounds like an opportunity to me.
Fred - this is 2004 - why should shifting a transmission be frustrating? It should be "user friendly." If you have try explain a indefinate TECHNIQUE in the manual rather than a simple direct PROCEDURE, the system needs to be re-designed.
Brandon - one man's use may be another man's abuse. But from what I've read of your exploits in Max's, I wouldn't be so quick to say my troubles are the result of abuse. Duck hunting is hard on equipment and that is what it is used for.
Recreative needs to address this design flaw and dealers like yourselves need to lead this discussion.
Comment? |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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brett,
you could put a syncro in the trans , but that would add wieght and cost and is a notherweak spot so, better off without.
shane |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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BrettBBonner, I have to agree with you there. If something fails that quickly and its a common thing, something needs to be done and why it wasn't earlier- Who knows? I don't have any experiance with those MAX machines, I am an ARGO owner. Yes, things fail, fall apart, wear and tear, but not excessivly, but when something takes so much effort to use, it causes problems and they must be addressed. I think its time for RI to do some re-modeling of their machines. SOme new parts, different body styling, some new models. Address all the little problems that they keep hearing about, and make a machine that has no major flaws.
Speaking of flaws, does anyone thing the new ARGO AVENGER will do better in the water? If they are supposed to be propelled by the tires, why do they use tires that don't propel worth $#!%? Thats what I want to know. Does anyone know anything more about how the steering works on this one? |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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THIS SHIFTER PROBLEM PROBLY SHOULDENT EXIST IN TODAYS TECHNICLE WORLD, YAH LETS ASK RECREATIVES TO INVEST SOME TIME AND MONEY INTO MICROPROSSESOR CONTROLED SHIFTING! |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Brett, As a dealer, I understand your concerns and I agree it is a troublesome area. That concern about the difficult shifting alone is probably a reason some people do not buy a max. I am very upfront with my customers and I point out that shifting ease is unpredictable. I also explain all the ways that I shift and point out the problem, explaining why. Most of my customers have been able to accept the situation. In my almost ten years of being a dealer, I know of only two shifter failures. One very early on because of forced shifting and one after about 500 hours of use.
I'm sure Recreatives is aware that is is a problem area, but, I don't think there is a fix. I worked on an old Hustler with a T-20 that had a spring loaded shifter (it had a push button that locked it in forward or reverse and if things weren't lined up when you shifted, the springs shifted for you when the tyranny began to move. This appeared to work, but I fear there was more gear wear and it was another thing to keep in adjustment and working. I don't think hard shifting from forward to reverse is a problem that only the Max has. Most of my customers have told me about something else they have or had that was hard to shift (a motorcycle or quad, tractor or lawnmower, etc.).
Maybe this thread will put RI to work on a solution. Seeing as you are a mechanical engineer, maybe you can come up with a fix. Maybe internal springs could be used to force the gears to neutral whenever the lever is moved, but I don't think so because there is a load on certain parts when shifting is hard (that's why rocking or touching the throttle just a little lines things up. Maybe spring loaded dual shifters. Maybe David berger has it and we need a $500 electronic computer controlled shifter.
Until then, I will continue to advise patience and make sure my customers know it is one of the idiosyncrasies of the Max. |
Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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There is room for improvement in everything. I can assure you, however, there is no immediate problem with those shifters. It takes some experience to shift it smoothly but most anyone can operate the machine. It's never a good idea to let an inexperienced person use your ATV anyway.
RI did a nice job with changing the body styles in 2000. There are several new improvements that they just don't brag about enough. Keep in mind they are doing this on a very low income. Sales are way down and they simply can't blow cash on things that don't really need to be done. When it comes time to make big changes, we can all be sure the almighty T-20 will be the last part they think of changing. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Torque Lock= Thats similar to what your trannies are doing. In a car or alike, if you shift into park without releasing the brake, the vehicle will lock into gear and when you try to shift out, it will often clunk. Torque lock is what its called. The ARGO does it occasionally, but usually in the form of grinding gears |
Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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I've had my Hustler for 3 years and the shift arrangement is near perfect. The spring loaded arrangement probably minimizes the abuse to the gears. Had the trans apart and the sliding collars and teeth were in excellent shape. the trans was in good condition considering most of the axle sprockets were so worn out the teeth were starting to fold over. Lots of mile on the machine befor i rebuilt it. |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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I just went through a repair job on a T-20 shifter for a local customer of ours. Here's the story, It is a Max IV machine 2002, the guy broke off the little nub that is pressed into the plunger shaft of the shifter assembly. In addition his machine was stuck in forward gear only because the shifter nub was broke off on one side only, so he could not go reverse. The other damage that I had to repair was the shifter linkage rods were bent just about into a half moon shape, and he was still driving it this way. I made all the repairs that needed to be done and he was back in business. The repair parts for the shifter assebmblies only cost him $27.75 per side to repair, and the shifter linkage rods, I just heated and bent back into shape. I only charged him for the parts and zero for labor, primarily just to help him out and get him back up and running. For this amount of damage to have occurred he was definately using some extreme excessive force to have bent those rods like that, and the next week point was the pressed in nubs to fail. This was good that it did fail that way rather than causing much more severe damage inside.
For this much damage to have been done to the shifting linkages and shifing nubs, this guy was clearly over powering the shifting stick with much more force than you would ever want to use.
It turned out that this guy owns and operates heavy earth moving equipment every day, and he bull whips the piss out of his heavy equipment day in and day out. Needless to say this is what he was doing to his Max IV machine for a couple of years. He learned an inexpensive very valuable lesson about bull whipping his smaller ATV just like his big bull dozer.
Brett if you are knocking out those nubs that easily, then the pressed in tolerance is not correct, and you have defective parts, or you are using some excessive force. Beleive me I am much bigger and stronger than your average guy, and I can bull whip the piss out of any piece of equipment and trash any thing in no time flat. I also have a problem of using excessive force with every thing that I do, and I do destroy a lot of stuff because of it. So far I am doing OK with the shifting on my Max IV, its not really that bad, and I am also aware that I have enough strength to probably roll the whole machine over if I lost my temper or some thing to that affect.
I am glad that there is a low cost weak point designed into the T-20 shifter linkage, in case I do over power it at some point in time. I do not disaggree that it would be nice to have a nmuch smoother shifting, and with todays modern technology it would be nice to have an improved design change for this.
One thing that you could do is would be to silver solder/braze or just plain weld those shifter nubs in place for good. They would not fall out if this were done. You would probably bend the linkages before the nubs break off however. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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split the t-20. i have not had to rock to shift since the split. one side will line up to change gears 99% of the time. once one side is in, if the other will not go, a bump of the throttle and the other side will follow. two shifters takes getting used to, but its worth it.
i have pulled both shifters out of gear on an incline, causing the max to roll slightly, and had trouble getting them back in, but that was before i learned to shift them one at a time. its just like anything else...you have to learn what to do, and what not to do.
the split will not solve all the shifting problems, but it has made shifting easier for me. it might do the same for you. |
BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Talking to Al in parts at Recreative, the pin broke off about 1/4 inch deep. The pins are pressed in about 1 inch deep. The one thing I have to compliment is Recreative's customer service. They are always on-target.
It's ridiculous that NEITHER side will go into gear to help you get out of your fix if one side is sitting on a tooth! And once you are stuck, it's amazing how frequently you seem to be sitting on a tooth. Try to get three others folks in duck hunting clothes and waders, in the dark, in the mud and cold to help you "rock" the vehical in gear. It's crazy to even try to describe. And the Honda 4-wheeler next to you goes "click" with the electric shifter and roars away.
It appears there are plenty of solutions to this.
I think the Hustler design sounds excellent. I really don't want to go to the work of splitting the T-20, but that is what it may take. Terry Harrison's description of the split's benefit is what we need - but I don't like the complication
However, I still think it can be done in a simple manner. If the drum of the diamond shifter can't be made out of rubber, then a spring loaded shifting rod connected to the diamond shifters would work as well. This spring would work in both compression and tension. It would let one side slide in while holding slight pressure (or tension) on the other side.
I'm not asking for a re-design, I'm just asking for some factory help. And the factory needs to do this. I assure you that many sales have been lost in my circle of friends due to poor shifting. Fred - it's sad that you have to interrupt your sales presentation to go over potential issues.
But, I may just have to add it to my things to do. |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Hey guys and any one that has intimate knowledge of the internal and external workings of the T-20 transmission. If you guys can come up with an engineered solution and can put it on paper, I can get any thing custom machined and made. Then you guys can field test it, and when complete we will can just hand a complete package solution over to R.I., to incorporate a running change into the T-20.
I mean other than the inconvenient shifter issue with the T-20, that transmission is a solid and robust work horse.
If any one wants to also help design a new gear box and shaft drive solution for the entire Max drive train to replace all the chains and sprockets and so on, we could mutally work on some thing like that also, and just hand it over to R.I. after it is built tested and complete.
Its seems that neither R.I./Max or Argo wants to put forth the effort to make items like this, so we could join forces and do it for them. I mean there are a lot of people on this forum that have wide and diverse back grounds, from hands on experience master mechanics to engineers. It is well within our collective capabilities to just join forces and make it happen. You see this sort of thing going on in wide variety of collector and enthusiast groups all over the place. |
Bob Eells
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Big Wolf.
I like your ideas. You definatly think "out of the box". That is a great idea. |
kush
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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BUt what would be the "best" solution for a drivetrain? Belts, chains, gears, driveshafts?
Electric or hydraulic motors on each axle?
Time to get the sliderules out for thsi one! |
Bill Aras (Blueknightnj)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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re: Max IV Controls
How about a control stick redesign or modification for current users of the MAX's. I find the two stick control is fine, however if it might be more comfortable and easier to control if the sticks instead of being straight up hand nice bends in them like a J or L shaped ends. I would welcome and pay for any retrofit.
Bill 2001-MAX IV |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Bigwolf, That is a very good idea. WOrk out the changes for the max drive train, then incorporate into ARGO drive train. WOrk out the other issues with the T-20 and make your changes to the ARGO tranny. Then test and if they work it could be the NEW MAX-IMUS and the NEW ARGO ENFORCER. (Can you tell my creative side sucks?) |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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HMMM POSABLY MAYBY A TECHNICLY ADVANCED DRIVE TRAIN FROM A NEWER QUAD, LIKE A 4 SPEED AUTOMATIC WITH DRIVE SHAFT COULD BE HOOCKED UP DIRECTLY TO T-20 INPUT SHAFT, THIS WOULD BE A GREAT MOD TO TRY OUT, USE THE QUAD ENGINE-TRANY-DRIVE TRAIN WITH IT'S CLUCH AND GEARS TO REPLACE THE STONE AGE BELT DRIVE, |
david berger (Davidrrrd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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BRETT IF YOU FIND YOU CANOT GET THE T-20 SHIFTED BY ATEMPTED ROCKING I HAVE FOUND YOU CAN HOLD THE SHIFTER WITH VERY LIGHT PRESHER AGENSED THE TEATH THAT ARE MISALIGNED, AND GIVE THE THROTLE JUST A LITTLE GAS TO CHAINGE THE ALIGNEMENT, IT WILL SLIP IN EASALY, BUT IT DOSE TAKE PRACTICE AND GREAT CAIR NOT TO GRIND GEARS, TRY THIS BEFORE GETTING YOUR FEET MUDDY,
(THIS TRICK EVEN WORKS IN THE DARK) |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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brett,
i'm not shure about this , but with the 6x6 stopped
maybe you could poke a large lever through one of the chains and push a little to move the t-20 teeth a little
instead of getting out and rocking it.
shane. |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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brett,
i meant by levering the chain an inch it will spin the gears in the t-20.
sorry for not explaining it proper.
and who knows it might not work anyway.
shane |
BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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It happened again!
Same kind of situation. Over a ridge, ready to plunge into an irrigation ditch. My buddies and I would have gone ahead, but in this case, it the passengers were my wife and child. My daughter was driving.
Foot hard on the brake, and pulling the shifter from forward to reverse, so I can back up. On a tooth. It was most delicately that I had my 14 year old daughter remove her foot from the brake. Screams as we start forward, and I pressed it into reverse. And we backed up. But that was all she wrote. Tried to go into forward gear, and one side was working. Busted diamond shifter.
I'm going to pull the engine and again check to make sure the contact part between the pin and shift pully is smooth. The last time I felt it, there was a very slight dent from the last pin breaking. And then I'm going to make spring loaded connecting links. The dent was on the forward side of the pully however.
This really is absurd. |
In A Pigs Eye
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Big Wolf - would you really just give all that hard work and expense over to the factory so that they can improve the product? Don't you think that you should file a patent on your work and then maybe make a little money for yourself? Do you think the factory would give you something in return like a good deal, like maybe selling another machine at cost, out from underneath a dealer? You may have access to machining, okay, do your machine shop guys work for free? What do you think it costs to set up a machine. If you truly and really feel this way, than my hat's off to you because you are one of the rare ones and I sure would like to be friends with you, not because I can get something out of you for nothing but because you are a person who cares and shares. Bravo Dude |
brettbbonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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OK, I'm in the middle of fixing this thing. Broken pin again. Shift collar is in perfect shape.
I'm fabing some shifter connecting rods with spring relief. That should ease the burden of shifting in a number of ways.
I'll take pictures and post the results. |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Yes, I would just hand over an improved design change to the factory, and ask them to add it in as a running product improvement. The shifting of the T-20 can be a pain in the rear end, and it needs to be improved to eliminate the issue. I do find it dufficult to explain the difficult shifting to a new person, and try to explain around the problem. Rocking the machine just does not seem to be a very good solution. Although my unit does seem to be getting easier to shift as I run it more.
Regarding the under selling issue with the factory, I knew this could and will happen. There are no signed contracts or franchises or distributors, and so on. That is the reason it will take about ten men to hold me down and whip the crap out of me, to get me to buy even two units up front for a five percent discount, or even a whole bunch of units for some larger discount.
They do have a few long time established dealers, to which I take my hat off to them for staying with it for so long. R.I. is a small outfit and they are set in their ways of thinking. I do not want to bad mouth them at all, they do not need that coming from me. They are a very nice bunch of people, they support their products very well, and they have made some other very substantial improvements in their products in the last several yeas or so.
At some point you would hope that they start listening to some of the real experienced business people and users and dealers even further, and take themselves to a an even higher level of operating. |
brettbbonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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If these new shifting connecting links help like I think they will, I'll gladly hand them over to RI. |
BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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I completed the spring loaded shift linkages with GREAT SUCCESS. It is comprised of simple steel parts and a very stiff spring. The linkage provides 1/2 inch relief in both directions until it hits metal stops. It replaces the existing linkages and doesn't require modifying the Max IV in anyway.
You can feel the spring load and the metal contact when you move the laterals. All you need to do is load the springs, give it gas, and it slips into gear.
Shifting from neutral to forward doesn't require anything other than pressing on the shift lever lever and giving throttle. No grinding or moving the laterals. A novice can now shift into forward.
Shifting into reverse is slightly more complicated as you have to pull back on the laterals along with the shift lever. However, it does seem to work just as well in reverse. I wouldn't say a novice can shift into reverse yet.
Before I declare a total success, I need to get a new Diamond shifter. I used one for testing that had a broken pin. I replaced the pin with some 1/4 inch mild steel I had. It didn't last very long and just ground away against that shift collar.
As soon as I can get a new one in and fully test this, I'll post the drawings and pictures.
Finally, with a little more spring relief, I think either vacuum shifters or 12V gear motors could shift this quite easily. |
masteravter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Brett
Sounds good, I guess you realize HUSTLER used this simple
system on there spring loaded (both ways) shifters for
over 15 years
Bill |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Hello Brett,
Sounds like an interesting modification! One question, are you also spring loading the shifter for reverse gear? When you pull back on the laterals and also move the shifter into reverse, are you also giving it throttle all at the same time? |
BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Masteravter - someone said the Hustler used such a system. Can you tell me if the hustler just gives about 1/2 spring relief in each direction before metal stops or is it all spring?
Big Wolf - It's spring loaded in both forward and reverse shifting. The Max needs a new diamond shifter on the right side, so confirmation of easy shifting as you describe for reverse is waiting on the receipt of the new diamond shifter. And yes, you would give it throttle at the same time.
But the issue in reverse is you have two laterals, 1 throttle, and 1 shift lever - but just two hands. I think some basic ergonomics were missed on this otherwise marvelous machine.
At some point, I'm going to put a gear motor on the thing with a dash switch for forward and reverse and eliminate this wacky lever. After all, if the engine is running, I should have 12Volts. |
masteratver
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Brett
Someone did say that; me.
Bill |
BrettBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Here are pictures of the parts and the construction.
Parts List -
1. Spring from NAPA 3.25x1x.167 (forgot the number)
2. 1/2" tube 2" long
3. 1/2" tube 2/75" long
4. 2 1/2" fender washers
5 3/8" threaded rod
6. 5/16" rod 6.5"
7. Locknuts
8. 5/16" washer
Put some fine threads on the 5/16 rod. Weld the tubes to the 1/2" washers to the springs with about 1/2" between the inner parts of the tubes. Position the rod through the tubes and weld with about 1/2" between the tubes. Weld the tube to the rod on the threaded side. Weld a 5/16" washer on the rod.
home.midsouth.rr.com/bonnerfamilymain/Parts.JPG
home.midsouth.rr.com/bonnerfamilymain/Construct1.JPG
home.midsouth.rr.com/bonnerfamilymain/Construct2.JPG
home.midsouth.rr.com/bonnerfamilymain/finish.JPG |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Hey does any one have any photo's of the Hustler style spring loaded shifting linkage, mentioned above? If so, I would really like to see some pictures of it, just to see how they dealt with this problem.
Brett your prototype shifting linkage looks interesting!
Also has any one asked Richard Clark if he has an aftermarket solution, to solve the T-20 shifting problem?
Last question, has any one asked R.I. if they have or are currently working on a kit type solution, to solve the T-20 shifting problem?
Just curious! I figure why reinvent the wheel if some one else already has a ready made solution.
Last comment, Brett that shifting linkage would be real nice, if it had an integral detent device built into it, made just strong enough to hold or lock the shifting handle, linkage, and the diamond shifter in the forward or reverse, with out the need to hold it in position by hand! |
BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Big Wolf - the detent would most likely have to be on the handle side - but it is a very good suggestion. That way, you just "cock" the handle for the gear you want to move into. I think I know a way to design that with little trouble. The benefit is just about anybody could drive it then without significant training (except for safety - I can tell you an 18HP MaxIV can get you into trouble very quickly - at least what I do with it). I might get around to that, but I have a whole lot of other non-Max projects in front of me.
The new diamond shifter did solve the last problem and shifting is as easy as I expected. Shifting into forward is simple. Just hold down on the lever and give it gas. For reverse, all you need to do is rev the engine in neutral and pull back on the laterals and shifter all at the same time. There is no gear grinding now when shifting into forward or reverse. I can shift when stuck without rocking (so far). |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Brett,
Your probably right, it would be much easier to make up a simple rod plunger and mating detent socket device, and mount it some where along the shifting lever push rods or some where along the handle mechanisim. A couple of good strong magnets and a flag plate may also work. These items would be much easier and straight forward to make up, versus trying to make up a much more complex spring loaded shift linkage with an intergal detent device build into it. |
liflod (Liflod)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Check out the Route 6x6 Information Bank under Hustler. It shows good pictures of the spring loaded shifter. |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Hey thanks for providing the information about the Hustler photo's here on Route 6x6. The spring loaded shifting linkage that Hustler used looks very straight forward and easy to duplicate. I think that I will go ahead a make up some new shifting linkages like this, and also make up a set of plunger type detents, to mount some where along the shifting rod under the floor pan area. I have a few different plunger detent ideas to try out. Not sure when I will have it done, hopefully some time soon. |
Big Wolf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Well I finally spoke with Jay over at the R.I. Factory about this subject issue today. I am probably not the first or the last person to talk to them about this subject. He made no commitments about when or what was going to be done to resolve this shifting problem with the T-20.
We did discuss the spring loaded linkage mechanisim that Hustler used on their machine application design. They are aware of the Husler spring loaded linkage design, and their only concern with that design is it could cause excessive and premature wear on the internal gears teeth of the T-20.
My opinion is do what ever makes you feel better and works better for your machine. If your machine is still under warranty, then do not make any modifications until the warranty period has expired. If your machine shifts good now, then leave it alone. If your machine is a real problem shifting then try making up and using the Hustler style spring linkage.
I was able to at least get them to tell me they are looking at some alternate ideas to make the T-20 shifting work smoother at some point down the road. One of their thought ideas is to machine a more generous lead in taper on the gear teeth, to make the shifting engagement work smoother. And the rough time frame to have a workable solution would be in the next six months to a year time frame. If and when they do eventually have a good modification to address this issue, you would probably be able to modify your existing T-20 in operation, or have it done for you.
Again this was just an off the cuff discussion we had, and some information I thought I would pass along. They are probably finally getting tired of hearing the same complaint from customers over the years about this issue, so maybe we will see some thing done to resolve it once and for all!
We will probably need to be patients with them, they are a small company, and they are just beginning to come back out of some real tuff economic times. Being persistent with them is a positive non hostile manner will eventually prevail.
I also tossed at them the premature chain stretch problem, that I experienced on my new Max IV-950T unit, and they are going to look into that further and do some testing to try and duplicate the conditions that led up to that event and problem. I have offered to them my assistance and feed back to figure it out. In the mean time, they are sending me replacement chains in exchange for the bad chain, that I will send to them for further examination and evaluation.
I think that my chain problem was a freek bizaar event, that happened under some very unusual circumstances. It will be difficult to recreate the exact same conditions that led up to the problem.
I am still very happy with my machine, and still think that R.I. has come a long way, and has made some very substantial advancements in improving their products over all. |
BrettBBonner
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Thanks Big Wolf.
More lead taper in the teeth is a positive move. I don't understand why that just isn't done as general upgrade. I think they have just two versions availabe - the 9 and 18 tooth versions. You would think that new gears would just be worked into parts/production.
All in all, I still love my max. But I sure do put a lot of maintenance hours in it.
Basically after all of this screwing around, and making my own pins for the diamond shifter, I have roughed up the shift collar now and most likely will have to replace it. I'm going to pull the engine next week and check it out.
Soon, this will be behind me. |
Brett Bonner ( - 199.82.243.72)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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I'm glad to see that Richard had made available T20 shift linkages very similar to my design. If you install his links, and they work like mine, I can assure you that you will enjoy effortless shifting under any conditions.
Plus, you don't need to monkey with the laterals any more when shifting. Just pull the shifter forward or backward and go!
Finally, I haven't had any diamond shifter issues since I installed mine.
With these installed, novices are far more successful in utilizing the Max.
I'm extremely glad Richard made this available to the community. Contrast that to Recreative that wouldn't respond to my email after I gave it to them.
Thanks Richard! |
John Schwab (Johnschwab)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Brett- Thanks for the heads-up on this. I have been looking to improve the shifting process and will try Richards linkage. This is very timely, since on a New Years Day ride one of my less experienced riding partners came careening down a steep hill after miss-shifting and broadsided my Max II causing some significant damage and some minor injuries. Could have been a lot worse, I told him we should consider this a fair warning. |
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Shop Talk: Tech Tips and Q&A section