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terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: | 
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my 2002 kholer command 25 hp with 40 hours on it is giving me problems. the engine starts missing when im hard on the gas and im in rough terrain. if im on smooth ground i dont notice any problem but when i hit a few bumps and get back in it, the engine starts to sputter. it gets really bad when i cross logs. this gets old real quick. what could be the problem? i just fixed the choke cable, it came loose and was causing a loss of power to go along with the cutting out. i got the power back, but still have the cutting out problem. any ideas?
i dont know much about carbs and hate to take the thing apart not knowing what to look for. i want to hear from you guys before i get started on this.
on a good note... its christmas! and i finished my front bumper today! ill post a pic in my profile when i get a chance to take a few. |
Bud
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Loose battery connection? |
uzi2100c
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry, I have an older version of the same motor. I have had a terrible time with the carb in that the float apparently would jar enough to bend the tab and flood the engine. Does not sound the same but may be related to the kind of problem you are having. WATCH OUT for the mechanices. One was into my wallet for over $700.00 for new carbs and other on this issue and he was the authorized Kohler dealer in the area. He never had a clue what was going on. Kohler sent me to another mechanic who found and temporarily fixed it for $50.00. He warned me that it probably would happen again due to the hard bounce of the machine. Worked great for 13 hours then the same thing happened as he had warned. He has contacted Kohler to see if there is a permanent fix. Good luck on yours. Just rember if you go to a mechanic see if he can work on a carb, not just replace it. Let me know how you come out. Ron |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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i checked the battery connections....they are good. |
LARRY HOUGHTON
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry: Something to look for is maybe aloose body to groud wire at the right front corner of the engine.But what your describing sounds more like aloose wire more than anthing else.Also do you have a heavy key chain swinging from the ignition key. If so when it gets to swinging it can jostle the ignition switch enough to make it cut out. I've this happen before on a bulldozer. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry, Is there any chance that you put gas in the tank out of an old can that could have had rust in it? Sounds to me like some rust has gotten through your inline filter and sits on the bottom of your carb bowl. When going easily, it stays on the bottom, when stirred up it plugs your jets. Check in your gas tank (after the machine has sat for a time) with a flash light for any rust particles on the bottom of your tank. If you see any, you can try a siphon (holding the hose on the bottom of the tank and moving it over the rust particles) to get the particles out. Put the gas you siphon out in a clean bucket and strain it through a fine weave cloth to trap the particles allowing you to reuse the cleaned gas. If you can't get the rust out of your tank with a siphon hose, you will have to take the tank out and clean it. If you have rust in your tank, you will need to change the in line filter and someone will have to get the stuff out of the carb. You could try carb cleaner to maybe wash the culprit through, but it probably won't do the job.
If your machine sits for a long period without use, it could be gas breakdown and carb cleaner and stable (or equivalent product) should get you back running OK.
Could be a loose ignition wire or heavy keychain like Larry mentioned above. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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i checked all the ground connections(battery, frame to frame, motor to frame, and a small 10ga jumper on the back of the motor) and the connections were all tight. i only have a floaty on the key ring. the max sat, unused, for less than a year before i bought it. the fella i bought it from said the gas had a stabilizer in it. i ran a tank of cleaner throught it anyway.
i really didnt notice the missing till i went for my first REAL ride (grand opening of the Lisbon Mud Bog). a week later i went to a friends place to ride with some other 6x6ers and we blazed some trails in the worst terrain i have ever been in(my max has taken me to places my 28x12x12 mudzilla clad grizzly would never go). crossing a deadening filled with beaver runs. i would sink up to my nuts in all kinds of veggies and moss when i stepped out of the max to pull winch line, its a good thing i had my waders on. we also delt with a maze of fallen trees and thick (unpassable on foot) underbrush. i could just ride it all down, but the unprotected winch was taking a beating. after that six hour ride i knew i had better get started on the front bumper (i posted a picture of it in my profile-click on my name). crossing logs caused the most cutting out, almost killing the enging at one point.
anyway back to the problem at hand, i looked in the tank and saw some black particles. i guess there is crap in the carb. i only pump gas from the station directly in the tank. if its rust, it was in there when i bought the max or it came from the station. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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i guess i got it fixed. i removed the gas tank and gave it a good cleaning, replaced the gas filter, removed the top of the carb and cleaned out the jets with some air. the bowl looked like new so i didnt mess with it. i filtered the gas that i removed from the tank and found some rust, a fly, some small bugs and some black particled that looked like plastic. i put it all back together and it seems to run fine. i took it hunting yesterday and it didnt do any cutting out, but i didnt do any bouncing either. i did spend about an hour in water which required half to full throttle at all times. if it was going to starve for fuel it would have been then. while i was tooling around in the water i learned a trick to navigating in water. with both banks of tires engaged you can lean to one side and turn without clutching that side. the harder you lean the sharper it turns. if you need to cut on a dime just clutch that side under full throttle while leaning all the way to that side and hold on. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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i just got back from blazing some trails around the house and i now i know that i have fixed the problem for sure. i jumped a few downed trees and the motor never missed a lick. cool.
i still have a torque problem. i noticed the problem after riding with some other maxers and seeing what a max should do. the motor bogs down and the tires stop turning when the motor should be spining the tires. i also cant climb steep hills without the motor bogging down, bringing the max to a stop. it should climb the hill or spin the tires trying, not just bog to a stop. when im in tire deep mud the tires dont want to spin at all, the engine just lugs and the tires dont turn over. whats up with that!? im working on the belt tention now. i cant tighten the belt within factory spec. the motor frame hits the tranny when i scoot the engine back. i had this problem when i first bought the max but never did anything about it. i will have to make some spacers to go under the engine so i can get the belt tight enough to meet spec. the the belt is over 1 1/8" wide and the max only has 45 hours on it, so i know the belt is not worn. i think its a drive clutch problem anyway, but i want the belt within factory spec to eliminate it as the cause of my problems before i start in on the clutch. has anyone else had problems like this? any ideas on the cause? |
Attex bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Sounds like one clutch is not working Terry. Grab the face plate and see if it can be slid in or out easily. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry, Glad you fixed the missing problem. You might need to adjust your drive belt, but I don't think that is your torque problem. It could be several things: (1) Your drive belt could be glazed a little and slipping - belt dressing on both edges will solve that problem. (2) Your driven clutch might not be rotating giving you more torque when you need it, but I doubt that with a new machine (there are three nylon guides that take just a dab of lubricant (WD-40 or similar) with a Q-tip. (3) something is preventing your steering levers from going all the way forward and your tranny internal bands are not engaging completely. Check to make sure that a cotter pin is not hitting the brake support. Also check your lateral travel - measure with one lever all the way forward and one lever all the way back (should be between six and ten inches). (4) You have too much friction modifier in your tranny fluid and the internal bands are not gripping tight. Solution; drain the fluid and go with straight Type F (or Dextron III). |
Howard Hoover
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry, I had a very similar problem with my Max II
I pulled off the tank and found plastic shavings inside where they had drilled the hole for the line and didn't even bother cleaning out the tank
I found shavings in the fuel line and also in the
fuel filter we may not have had exactly the same problem but sounds pretty similar. A good way to keep your gas tank clean is to filter your gas
using a coffee filter they are cheap and the gas drains through them quickly and you can tell they are filtering because the gas will stop flowing through them so quickly and when your done you can see tiny particles of stuff at the bottom of the filter! I filter all the gas that goes into my small engines. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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I know this will likely start something but Im asking it anyways- I am more than willing to suck up any throw backs you all may have- In all the time I have been watching these boards, I have only ever heard about maybe 5 ARGO atvs having this many problems with engines, clutches, and trannys. I have heard countless MAX problems and it sure seems like they fall apart easily and require more maintenence. Yes every vehicle can have mechanical problems, and I have had many with the ARGO but they are all mainly a result of wear and tear and failure to replace parts as necessary and put money in to maintain the vehicle (thats because I have none, and Dad doesn't use it anymore and therefore, doesn't realize what needs to be done. My chains should have been replaced 50 hours ago, bearings replaced 2 years ago, the engine is in amazing shape with 685 hours on the clock. I have NEVER had a problem with the engine specifically other than a minor carb problem that I didn't know about.) Why do these Max atvs seem to have more problems or is the ARGO owners just not saying what happens to their ARGOs. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Well David K., There are a couple of things to be said in response to your post. All machines made will have manufacturing problems and when people do the work (instead of robots) there can be quality control issues (everybody has a bad day every now and then and doesn't perform quite up to par. That's why there are warranties. The kind of care the machines have before and after the sale determine a lot. When machines are displayed outside in the weather (dealers think they need people to see their product), they get and retain moisture places that don't stay wet when the machine is in operation.
The other thing is numbers and ability. When machines get used, and used in ways some can't even imagine, they wear out. And machines that don't get the care they need wear out faster. You say your machine has 685 hours and if I remember right, it is a pretty old machine. I have customers that have put that many hours on their machines in three or so years. A machine put to the test when it goes out stresses the machine much more than running up and down an almost level road. Go back and re-read this discussion forum - there are a lot of Argo problems and face it, Argos just won't go and do what Max will - the tires are too small and the machine is too heavy and too much horse power is lost between the engine and the tires (this goes for all the other stronger and heavier machines, too). You just can't expect a pack mule to go where a wild mountain goat can. And something that goes twice as far in the same amount of time will wear out faster.
Now, I'm not bashing anyone's machine. I'm stating facts. Yes, Max have a few problems, most dependent on the care they have had and the life they have lived. |
Eddie Beddingfield
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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David , Sounds like some design problems to me, To much driven force on bearings,or to small of bearings. And have you seen a T-20 drive band,I have seen the ends break off and some come undone at the spotweld.Good thing Max is so light or they would have even more problems. Eddie |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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bob,
with the max off the ground, as i mash the throttle, the clutches look like they work without sticking . it will run good and fast on the road. it just will not gear down low enough when i need tourqe to climb or turn the tires in deep mud. i think the drive clutch is set wrong (rate of engagement) or the belt is too lose.
howard,
thanks for the tip. ill put together a funnell filter, i have one i can use in the shed. or i guess i could just carry a filter with me, use electical tape to hold it in place and throw it away after fill up. anyway i will start filtering gas i put in the max, one way or another.
fred,
the belt has 3 inches of deflection. the manual calls for 1.25. i think the lack of belt tention is part of the problem but not all of it. the sheave must close quite a bit to engage the belt, raising the starting gear ratio. i lubed the driven clutch shaft, spring and sliders before my last ride, thats not it. the laterals are set properly and have clearance. lateral travel is also in spec. the t-20 fluid is what was put in by RI. the original owner only put 16 hours on it, so he had no reason to change the fluid or add any more to it. i am taking the engine out so i can remove the front lip of the engine mount which will give me the clearance i need to move the engine all the way back without hitting the tranny (the top of the brake lever is what is making contact w/ the mount). with the spacers i will make and the added engine adjustment to the rear, i should be able to get the belt within spec. while i have the engine out ill check the tranny fluid. the manual calls for fluid change at 60 hours. i have 50 at this point. ill start with the belt first, then try the dressing, then ill change the fluid, then ill go after the clutch. i feel like one of these will fix it. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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before i became a 6 wheeler owner, i test drove a friends new argo bigfoot for an hour. i then test drove another friends 2 year old max. after the max test drive, i knew what i wanted to buy. the performance difference was big. you cant compete with true 6 wheel drive. i didnt like the brake fighting aginst the motor to turn either. so i drove from magnolia, ar. to matoon, il. to buy a used max instead of driving 30 minutes to the next town to buy an argo.
i followed an argo two rides ago and watched him struggle in a few places, i (with my motor cutting out and lack of torque) had less of or no problem crossing the same places.
i know the limitations of a 6x3. thats why i didnt buy one. even with the problems i have now, i would rather have a 6x6 than a 6x3. these problems i have are minor compared to the problem of having a 3 wheel drive machine. besides... can you split the tranny on an argo? my friend has his max split and its the way to go. it gives you the ability to manuver in any tight spot with ease. crossing a deadening through tree tops and downed logs is where it really comes in handy. so much easier and quicker to change direction when you get in a bind. its also fun to spin in place. try that with a 6x3 on dry ground. |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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if your engine is running rough on rough ground
but ok on smooth ground it is probably dirt in fuel blocking carby jets.
you see on bumps you stirr the dirt up that's settled in bottom of carb and tank, and it blocks jets.
does it idle ok but play up when hit the gas = dirt in fuel.
on the other hand if it's hard to start and stalls when slowing down from a long strait then it's the points (or wrong fuel air mix)( new points have a coating to protect from corrosion that needs cleaning off b for installing.
thanks shane |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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to david keeso,
you give out opinions, but you have worn out bearings heh.
well you better replace your bearings soon or stop using it because they will put your chains out, put strain and wear on axles and possably damage the frame and body causing it not to seal.
and soon you might have to ride as a passenger , possably in a max.
well said fred i totally agree,
strong is heavy, light is agile .
better to have a max than nothing at all.
i see nothing wrong with max or argo thair just different. althou i wish max made a 8x8 (maybe they tested 1 and decided against it? )
shane |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Shane, I have worn out bearings because I had no idea what they were (until about a month ago) and the machine isn't being run more than 5 hours every month or two. They are being replaced sometime this month and then the chains will be replaced in February. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry, About the friction modifier: RI puts it in now to eliminate "tranny chatter" (the noise the bands make when they are not completely engaged). Now this is just my opinion, somewhat verified by others comments, but I think sometimes the modifier allows the internal bands to slip when under real heavy load. At least one person has said that they changed their ATF and did not add modifier and the "bogging engine" syndrome disappeared. Practically all my experience is with older models prior to use of the friction modifier and I have never had the feeling of not enough power. I do use belt dressing regularly and go 100 or so hours between tranny oil change. I had one 900T customer indicate he thought he had a problem and I changed his tranny oil (no modifier) and dressed his belt and I have not heard back from him (that means all is OK). But I do not know which was the cure.
I can't come to grips with why you would have so much slack in your drive belt. I agree with your reasoning. Maybe you should call RI and see if they have a reason as to why it would be loose. I might be tempted to put a washer or two on top of each of your motor mounts. Maybe the new tranny support in the frame makes the tranny sit higher. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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David K., Your mechanic is getting to you. It would be more economical to do all that stuff at the same time - save you at least an hour of labor, maybe more. |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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good to hear your fixing it david k.
i to hear a machiene in pain ( joke)
as i said i like both argo and max design
all machines will have to compromise some where.
shane |
Argohunter (Argohunter)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Fred, do you happen to know when RI started adding the friction modifier in the T-20's? |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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well, well, well, i just found out where all the belt slack came from. i pulled the engine out, and when i set it down i noticed the engine mount feet on the front were bent. the one by the clutch is bent the most. either the feet are too thin to support the weight of the engine or this thing was dropped off a house. that explains why the mount was hitting the tranny, and why the belt was too lose. tomorrow ill hammer the feet back straight and weld some thick plate to the bottom of the feet. that should bring the engine back up where it is supposed to be and keep it there. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Argohunter, I'm not positive, but I think 2000. |
David Keeso (Argomag)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Fred, that was my decision to do it in 2 stages. I can't afford both right now and Dad isn't willing to fork out that much right away- he still wants it checked for more that needs to be done and do everything but he hasn't got to it yet. It should be back to 98 % in mid February- I hope! |
Joe Motson
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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The front feet on a Max IV engine mount are supposed to be offset so the engine will sit level. The rear chassis mounts are lower and this offset allows the engine to sit level. Make sure the rubber mounts are not worn out. If not, shim the engine up off the stand with some shimming washers. RI has them, they are a slotted washer. |
liflod (Liflod)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry, Check with RI about the bent feet. I think they have a new and improved mount for the big engine machines. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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joe,
i turned the engine mount over ond was getting ready to smack it back flat untill i saw the maching marks where the feet were bent at the factory. so , now im back to square one.
fred,
i still need those numbers, please.
i guess im back to adding spacers between the engine and engine mount. |
Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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Terry, Just got off the phone with Jay at RI. He says it is so hard to get a good deflection measure on the 900T and 950T that he questions other's measurements. With that said, he agrees that the belt might be a little looser. But a looser belt should increase low end performance just marginally and maybe reduce top end speed. We discussed what your problem is. He thinks maybe your driven clutch is dry on the inner shaft (under the big spring) and not coming back together as it should. We discussed having the laterals fully engaged (even pushing them forward when climbing) and I mentioned the friction modifier (He said, and I paraphrase, 'well, maybe it could cause some internal slippage', but I'm not sure he thinks it is a concern).
He suggested that you clean the driven clutch with brake cleaner and air and apply a little lubricating oil. Jay also said that load and grade with good traction could bog the engine.
My suggestion is to not modify the motor mount frame, but put in a spacer to tighten the drive belt just a little (make sure you can get it off without loosening anything). Then (1) try belt dressing to remove the possibility of a slipping belt; (2) clean and lube the driven clutch; (3) change your tranny oil and leave out any friction modifier (you can always add some if you want, later).
Do you know if this machine sat outside in the weather before you bought it? |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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i could see a worn(more narrow) belt having that effect but not a loose one. a loose belt rides higher in the drive sheave at first engagement, i cant see how that helps anything. the problem is at the low end, the top end is as fast as i want to go(feels like 20-25mph).
i keep the driven clutch lubricated along with the plastic slides. it should function properly. with the max off the ground i can watch the clutches operate as i mash the motor, from what i can tell, all looks good. nothing sticks, all movement is smooth, in and out.
i will add some spacers and hold off on the pedistal hacking for now, we'll see if that helps. if it doesnt, ill go to the next solution on the list.
the original owner kept it in the garage out of the weather. part of the reason he sold it is because the wife wanted to park her car in the garage and he didnt have any other place to keep it. i keep it under a shed out of the rain. |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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terry,
i think it's the carb for sure,
there's a part called a pump on the carb ,
it's purpose is to squirt a full rich dash of fuel into the engine to help accelerate it before
mechenical advence kicks in, this gives instant accelerstion, without it the engine lags and slowly acceleretes to full speed, or stalls on a hill
shane |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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shane,
my enging seems to accelerate ok on level ground. if you feel sure about it, ill go ahead and put the carb on the list of things to check. i want to check things one at a time so i will find out what the problem is.
thanks. |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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terry ,
the pump could be partly working.
pumping enough fuel to work ok on flat ground,
but not squirt enought to give power on hills etc.
no acceleration / power when taking off is the
main symptom of accel, pump not working properly
and a carb specialist should fix it for (cheap )the price of a atv tyre.
if you've never replaced one before it's worth getting someone who has. it's simple once you know how, but can be done wrong and still look like you done it right.
shane |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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terry,
it could easily be whet fred said it is , he's very knowlegable and you should check the simplest things first.
also i don't have a max and don't know all it's tricks, the dealers and factory know best,
if that fails check what i said by getting some one who has a max to look down the carb throat and quickly floor the gas , you should see a squirt of fuel go down the throat , but you need toknow where to look. p,s do with 6x6 on secured on bloks / ramps so it won't take off.
shane |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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argo vs max
terry,
in your post a while ago jan /5/2004 .
you said you tested your friends new argo
and compared it to a 2 year old max.
did you think that the argo still needed running in and the engine was new and still tight.
of course it wouldn't perform as well as a run in max.
oh well max vs argo will continue.....
shane |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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shane,
thanks for all the help on solutions to my problem. it turned out to be the belt. after i raised the motor up with a 1/4 inch spacer and scuffed the surface of the drive sheave and belt, the problem went away.
6 wheel max vs 6 wheel argo
the argo was new, not brand new. it had 20 or so hours on it. it was not a hp shortage on the argo i didnt like, it was the way the argo was set up.
the brake fighting the motor was one. every time i tried a turn, the argo would bow up and fight the motor as it turned. tryintg to turn on dry ground, from a stop, in high gear, was not easy without loads of rpm. that made it hard to control. having to shift to low gear every time for slow tight controled maneuvers would suck. i live in south arkansas and i do alot of riding in tight timber that requires alot of maneuvering around trees.
the fold over steering laterals was second. they made my hands go to sleep on long trails and the twist throttle sucks big time. trying to control a twist throttle on rough terrain is not as easy as a mash throttle.
with three of us and an aftermarket rack attached to the hitch, the argo would take on water from the rear. the water level was right at the top of the body at the rear. it did ok with two people. my max did do alittle better with three people and extra weight, but i did have the weight spread around evenly and i was hard on the throttle during the crossing, which would make it more stable. so i guess this isnt really a good comparason.
the third thing i didnt like about the argo is the 3 wheel drive set up. i see this every time i go riding with one. watching only one bank of tires pull is a sad thing to see. the poor driver has to work his butt off. that is the main reason i didnt get one. the one time that sticks in my head is on a open trail with a small tree across the trail. the argo made it over with the first axle then started spinning with only one set of tires. several attemps were made but he could not go forward. he finally backed up and hit it again and went over. i was behind him, i slowly crossed the tree and smiled knowing i made the right decision when i bought the max.
i take my max through flooded timber and cross downed tree tops while floating. its not easy but i do it. the only reason i can do it is because both banks of tires pull at all times. i believe it would be impossible with a 6x3.
the test drive in the argo may have gone better if i had more experiance driving 6x6's, and i may be the only person whos hands go to sleep in that position while driving with the folded over handles. but the 3 wheel drive thing..... well i just like the full time 6 wheel drive. |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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terry,
good to hear you fixed it,
any how the advice i gave will be handy to others who still have trouble after checking belt(s).
i said argo v's max would go on.
i see why you bought a max now , i also moter bike twist grip throttle, allways liked max's mash accel, more controll less hand strain.
on 3wheel drive , you should see the post about this by david burger ,i think it would come up if you search for "true 6 wheel drive" worth a look.
he basically said when max turns in mud you dis-engage 1 side fully to turn the other making it a 3 wd.
when argo turns you slow 1 side and that power is transferred through diff to other wheels,
so having seen that thorettically you should be able to keep some percent of wheel spin on the slowed side without full stopping it ( if you don't yank the brake full on.
of course this would take practice.
i have also seen a land tamer video , in deep mud he hits the brakes full on 1 side and the thing goes strait ahed for 2 metres ( 6feet) before it grips enought to turn.
shane. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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shane,
i did a search and didnt find it. ill look again later, but for now...
i am not a mechanic or engineer. this is only my opinion based on my experience with both driving and riding the machines. this is what i think is happening here:
by only slipping the clutch on the max you are slowing that side down without loosing pulling power and without killing your horsepower. the t-20 set up allows the operator to accurately control the power applied to each bank of tires. with the diff, the motor fights the mud and then you load it up even more by hitting it with the brake. the motor bogs from the added load of the brake and the diff trying to increase the tire speed on the free bank of tires. to keep the motor from bogging the operator has to learn to bump the throttle when turning to maintain enging rpm, hp, or momentium when required. in my opinion, this is a bad set up. with either machine, to turn a 90 degree turn in mud you would have to stop one side. the max requires only to clutch one side with full hp going to the pulling bank of tires. the argo requires the application of the brake, causing the motor to fight the drivetrain. just listen to the amount of motor bog anytime you turn a argo, then listen to a max(or anything with a t-20).
anytime a max would require a full clutch to turn, the argo would require a full brake to do the same maneuver. the max at full clutch has full power going to the pulling bank of tires, the argo at full brake, well, we know what happens. any time you brake aginst the motor you are killing the hp. the t-20 frees up hp when clutching, the diff robs hp when braking.
i do not agree with what david has said according to your post. the max will slow one side more efficiently than the argo will. a situation requiring the max to full clutch(releasing hp- maintains maxium power for given situation) would require the argo to full brake(robbing hp- decreases power available for given situation, requiring more throttle). |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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its only fair to list both the good and bad. i dont want to come across as a basher. i chose the max because it catered to my wants and needs.
i do like some things on an argo compared to max.
i like the outer bearing set up, i like the less amount of flex in the body of the argo, i like the outboard motor mount on the rear, and i like the looks of the argo. i also like the 8x8 (max cant compete in that area). the low gear is cool too.
the things i like about the max compared to argo.
full 6x6(big factor), abilty to split tranny, power(basicly the overall performance), seating(ability to stick feet under dash and steady ones self for steep down hill runs and log crossings), the ease of maintenance(oil change, motor removal, access to chains and axles), and cost(big factor). |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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terry,
ok i think max wins!!!
wouldn't it be good if a manufacturer listened to the postings on this board and actully made a decent aatv without the problems listed above and elsewhere???
just a thought.
shane |
JOHN
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IS A HYDROSTATIC DRIVE ATV, THEY DONT HAVE ANY OF THE ABOVE PROBLEMS, THEY COST A LITTLE MORE BUT YOU WILL SAVE THAT MUCH OVER AND OVER IN THE LOW MAINTENANCE. |
shane forsythe (Shanefor1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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john,
no thanks , it would be good but noone can predict when a pipe is going to burst and horrably burn you.
the only way to prevent this is to shield the pipes in other pipes = heavy.
and if a pipe bursts inthe middle of nowhere how do you get it home?? , 10litres of spare oil and spare pipes?? |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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john,
thanks for your post.
i have worked on several hydraulic systems and personally, i dont care for them. there is no way to prepare for a busted hose. when it breaks, there is no way to drive it out. no way to fix it on the spot without making a trip to get replacement hoses and gallons of heavy hydraulic oil. besides, its too big and too heavy to begin with. chain drive can still get you home most of the time when something goes wrong. a broke chain can be avoided all together by regular maintenance and sometimes can be cleared up for the drive in, if it hasnt destroyed the entire driveline. belt problems can be fixed on the spot in minutes with the spare belt that is in the spare belt holder. i dont remember seeing a spare 5 gallon bucket holder with a spare hose bracket in any of the hydrostatic drive rigs.
some people like hydrostatic drives, i just not one of them. now, i do like the amphibitruck. its ability to raise and lower the tires is really cool, and so is the prop on the back, but that doesnt mean i want to own one. |
terry harrison (Th3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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just to add some information....
the missing during bouncing turns came back. i was able to trace the cause to the float level being too high. it started with sooty plugs and progressed to the missing. the service manual spec to set the float level is too high. the gas was sloshing around and spilling into places it didnt belong. after setting the float level as instructed by my kohler dealer the gas level dropped enough to stop the gas from sloshing into the intake, the missing stopped and the plugs burned off the soot. the float tang may be too weak and bend during riding. if i start having problems again, the float tang will be my first check. |
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