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Ray Kohls
Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:33 am: | 
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I know I have too much time on my hands, but my I need your opinion. After viewing ATV requirements for 51 States, they almost all say 50" width and 800 lbs, which eliminates almost all AATV's. I'm looking to build my next project. I designed an:
-AATV 4x4 with 4 wheel independent suspension
-50" wheelbase
-50" wide
-Suspension Seat
-Shaft Drive to 4 wheels (2 short drive chains only)
-30" tires
-12" clearance
-skid steer
-2 persons
-23 hp/KT-35
-Dual Props
-12" of tire out front before body
-Around 600 lbs.
Questions:
1. Do you think ATV/AATV people would be interested?
2. Would AATV people be interested in riding on state trails?
3. What speeds land/water?
4. What would you pay for such a vehicle?
Please respond, your opinion is important to me positively or negatively.
Thanks |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 80
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.161.17.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 07:26 pm: |
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Ray, since no one seems to be responding I'll throw
my 2 cents worth in.
You already have a 6x6 & a 4x4 just remove the two center wheels on the 6x6 & you've got your 4x4. Just kidding.
I have been thinking for quite a while that I might just get a 4x4 ATV and ride it until I finish my 6x6 but that could be money spent towards my 6x6. If I did buy one it would probably be a Honda or a Polaris but I do have an open mind so if someone came up with something better I would probably be interested.
State trails are ok I guess especially if there free???
AS far as speed goes in my opinion I would say 30-35 mph land is plenty fast enough for a vehicle with such a short wheel base but then it would have a suspension so that would help out some but anyone traveling through a trail much faster than 15-25 mph is asking for trouble. What do you think would win your body or a Tree?? I would much rather have low end grunt for pulling & climbing myself but then again that is what gears are for. Depending on how far you have to go the water speed could be negotiable are you just crossing streams or are you going to be crossing a lot of lakes or ponds? If you were crossing a long narrow lake and could swim it a lot faster than driving around it water speed might be more important. This is one area that ATV's & AATV's need a lot of work I think. I don't know what it would take to get such a vehicle to plane out like with a hydrofoil but that would be one way I think to get them quite a bit more speed. Most AATV's or ATV's aren't very sleek in the water, there more like a barge or a bathtub. You can get a Honda 350 4x4 for around 5000.00 but they are mass produced. If you cold mass produce something like that who knows 6500.00 - 6800.00 ?? but probably a lot more if your just producing a few. |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 52
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 08:35 pm: |
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Hey Howard, thanks for being my only responder . I was suprised by the lack of interest. If you read a lot of the posts everyone wants a suspension, more water speed, a little faster, more trails to ride etc. I have the design and its not a pipe dream. I designed a 4x4 AATV because in some areas you are restricted to 4 wheels. My thinking is this: ATV's used to be banned from a lot of areas, now because of their numbers they have a lobby $$$$$, and a voice and are allowed to ride just about anywhere. However AATV's (6x6) are restricted. They picked 50" wide so our 6x6, 8x8's are not allowed. Here in Ontario I can not travel on a road side to get to a trail because of the restrictions. To illustrate my point only a few hours from me is Ontario's largest forest with 100's of miles of trails. However no 6x6's are allowed. Because you may need to travel on the shoulder of a public road you need: license/insurance/4 wheels/max. 53" wide/head & brake lights/mirror/handlebar steering and straddle the seat. Only exception if you are a legit farmer with a SMV sign. My efforts in custom design/building is to try to get some of the ATV market to cross over to the AATV. Wouldn't it be great to have Argo and Max (or new guy) design a 4x4 AATV with a suspension/10 mph water/35 mph land/2 up/50" wide/700 lbs! It would also need a face lift with some sexy fiberglas parts to give it some styling so that there would be more mass appeal. What do you think?http://www.grca.on.ca/ganfor.htm#offroad |
Jerry R. Nuss
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 523
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 131.230.43.15
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 10:48 pm: |
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What about the av4 for no suspension? And Gibbs has the high dollar unit with suspension that will get up on plane. |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 53
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 12:47 am: |
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I like the AV4 it is in my opinion a step in the right direction. Like any design improvements could be made. Things I like are the short wheelbase, styling, power, tranny, tire size, payload, wet brakes and price. Dislikes are clearance under the tranny, width, weight, and no locker (it's there just not hooked up). Again in my opinion improvements needed to capture more ATV market are width (too wide) narrow to max 50", more speed 35 mph, suspension (start with suspension seat), increase water speed to 10 mph., shaft drive eliminate chains.
The Gibbs design is beautiful, but who can afford it? Its not going to gain ATV market share, but could if it was affordable, but that's not going to happen in my lifetime.
I believe the ATV buyer is now moving towards more utility, Mules/Gators etc, this increases the price, but is easier to justify if it is more usefull. So accessories are important. Just as the ATV market moved to utility, the AATV market needs to move towards a 4x4 AATV, with accessories. Without this transition, I see a future in which the existing AATV's will be even more restricted and end up being used on private land only.
The estimated number of registered ATV's in the USA is 1,000,000 and growing about 10% year. Capturing only 1% of that market is huge! Someone needs to lead the development of a AATV that will eat into the ATV market, when that happens the Big boys will see they are losing market share and develop a suitable product. When the numbers increase so does our lobby. Then we won't need to look for areas to ride in, there will be miles of local trails. |
Jerry R. Nuss
Senior Member
Username: Jerrynuss
Post Number: 524
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 70.106.218.54
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
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Why not just work on changing the statutes? Were the laws meant to exclued the amphibious atv, no most were written to exclude jeeps and large vehicles.
Where I live and ride it is done all on private land |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 54
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 12:43 pm: |
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Well that would be the easiest way, but in my opinion it hasn't worked as yet. Argo tried to lobby for ammendments to the ORV regs in Ontario but "no deal", the provincial government regs prohibit an Argo from riding the shoulder on public roads. Only a "farmer" with a SMV can legally do it. We just don't have a big enough voice. So if you can't beat them join them. If the lawmakers wanted to include AATV's and not Jeeps or large vehicles they only needed to restrict weight and we would have been ok. But they didn't, they did width 50" and weight which eliminates everything except ATV's. Check out this link to the SVIA it gives the regs for all states, pretty depressing. I talked to one of the biggest Argo dealers in Ontario and he said that he lost a lot of customers because Argo's can't ride the shoulders. He said that customers would like to leave from their rural homes and drive to the trails without having to trailer it. Even if you trailer it, if the trail your riding is connected to the next section via a public road your screwed. http://www.atvsafety.org/InfoSheets/SummaryChartFebruary2007.pdf |
christopher j Davison
Junior Member
Username: Chris_davison
Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 66.81.40.227
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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where I live its all rural 10 acre parcels and most of the roads are dirt easements I will be able to drive for miles testing my rig before I trailer it to loon lake where we go fishing |
Howard Hoover
Intermediate Member
Username: Howard_hoover
Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 4.161.104.234
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 11:09 pm: |
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One reason for a wider vehicle is room inside, another is stability. I wonder how feasible it would be to make the axles or tires retract or extend for one purpose or another. I guess as long as the top part of the body is 50 inches the wheels or tires & axles could be variable. It might not be very practicle but it could be depending on how it was or could be done.
One thought I have on it is to have reversible deep dish wheels and have your axles extend all the way out to about the 50 inch mark, have your tires one way to go through the entrance then turn them around after you get through. It might put a little extra stress on the axles but if you think you need the extra stability? What do you think? |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 55
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 08:42 am: |
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Chris, you're lucky that you can drive on easments, but most people can not.
Howard, stability is mainly related to C of G. The design I've done would be more stable than the existing 4x4's. The carrying capacity would be equal/or better than existing 4x4's. It would be 50" wide to qualify for the state trails.
Howard your idea about the rev/rims would probably get you through the entrance but is alot of work changing back and forth. Not to mention if one of the wardens catches you . |
christopher j Davison
Member
Username: Chris_davison
Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 66.81.43.21
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 11:50 pm: |
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Im sure they exist in Calif but I have to admit Ive never seen a atv only trail. all of the trails Ive been on were 4x4 trails like the Rubicon or azusa Canyon or Glamis, red rock canyon, El mirage dry lake etc. I was building my rig with these trails in mind mostly loon lake and the rubicon. I want to park the truck then drive across the parking lot down the boat ramp and putt two miles to the back of the lake drive out on to the rubicon trail and camp anywhere fish all day and shoot my guns.
this area is near the desolation wilderness
and Tahoe. |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 57
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 09:51 am: |
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Chris, you are a luck man to live around so many AATV trails. I just watched the Argo video yesterday of the Rubicon Trail, where a group of 8x8's went from Georgetown to the end and back, I just loved the country. If I ever get out that way again I will look you up. The weather here has warmed up so I spent some time water testing. Tried different tire combo's mixing mudlites with rawhide 111 but the results were disappointing. However I did find that if you lean the machine turns very quickly. I guess its like an aileron on a plane one up the other down. So one side sinks increasing drag the other lifts and becomes more efficent thereby turning rather quickly. A lot of you guys probably know all this stuff but its new to me. I guess it still takes 5 years to get 5 years experience! |
Ray Kohls
Intermediate Member
Username: Bw6
Post Number: 58
Registered: 02-2007
Posted From: 74.110.30.116
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 09:02 am: |
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Good Morning, Well we had a good ride yesterday. We tested 4 types of AATV's over some very extreme ground (pond, alder swamps, black muck, river with current, very steep hills, thick trees, heavy rutted trails). We had a Honda 400 4x4, Argo Frontier, Hoot, and my Bushwacker. The Argo won. I was amazed at the water speed forward, reverse not very good. Also overall I think it performed the best. We pulled each other out of the black muck the most, once the tires sink down and you're high centered thats it, get the rope. The Argo driver had the most experience so he led the way, impressive.
The Bushwacker performed great! It went everywhere the others went. Because of its light weight and low psi. on the ground it went through all the soft swampy areas, but the black muck got us all!
At the end of the ride, my pride was setting in, praising the Bushwacker, for its performance when I heard pop-pop-pop, oh no I thought. I was zig-zagging climbing a very steep part with trees crossing the climb when the poping got louder. I stopped. The other guys were waiting for me so they towed me out. It took 2, the Honda (winch) and the Argo Frontier to get me out. When I was level I opened the hood to check out the problem. When I noticed the diff lock was on!! Somehow through the thick stuff something hit the switch! How long had that been on, here I am skid steering with the diff lock on! This put so much stress on the tranny chains that they were stretched. I brought my tools so a 5 min. adjustment got me going again but those poor chains will need to be replaced. Hope I didn't damage the tranny, I was too tired to check it out, so that will be next weeks fun. All in all a great day! |
philip w.cox
Advanced Member
Username: Philipatmaxfour
Post Number: 322
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 217.206.43.131
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:42 pm: |
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Ray--Great report! Our friend Fred will be pleased to hear that you are paying attention to PSI on the ground. Great that you got to ride with other machines,to compare results. please be sure to give us further reports as you continue testing. As I understand your report ,you were forcing skid steer turns with the brakes while you had the differential locked. Man something had to give. Good luck W. Philip Cox |
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