Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through October 18, 2000	3

By Derrick on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon, I'm not sure why you would say an aatv with suspension would suck?!? Is it because your friends modifications sucked? There were quite a few aircraft designs that sucked before the Wrights came close to getting it right...if they had stuck to your rationale, where would aviation be today? To corectly set up suspension for various loads, to maintain ground clearance,and have admirable handling qualities is quite a task. Attempting to modify an existing design probably isn't the easiest (or results oriented) way to go. A vehicle should be designed around the suspension and drivetrain...not the other way around. Four wheel drive vehicles and four wheelers, as well as almost every vehicle in the military (tanks included) have a suspension system...do they do this so they will lose ground clearance and stability..or to adversely affect the handling? They have a suspension system because it increases ground clearance (and the military is prone to loading their suspended vehicles quite heavily), maintains traction on uneven terrain (something all 6x6's DON'T do...imagine be able to maintain traction with all six wheels in the rough), and allows the vehicles to cross rough terrain at speed and in control. The world has realized the merits of suspension, from the highest tech military vehicles to the lowly mountain bike....the technology stagnant aatv industry is way behind.

By newmax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Derrick, I agree that suspension would be great. the only problem with all those vehicles is that they dont float. One good thing about these max's and argo's is that all the chains and sprockets are inclosed in the body. (not the best for maintainence) that greatly increases longevity of these components.

By lilchief on Unrecorded Date: Edit

your right about the suspentions ... but a tank doesn't floot and neather dows any 2x4 or 4x4 .. So I think that is where we loose our comfort. If we want to floot then we take the jolt. Just an oppinion.

By John on Unrecorded Date: Edit

That is not necessarily true there are military 6 and 8 wheel drive amphibious vehicles that have a suspension as well as a couple of amphibious tanks. As I said earlier we are posting in the ultimate ATV so we need to think outside the Max and Argo box. But I do agree that it would be a challenge to build an amphibious ATV with a suspension that is not overly large. But good intelligent postings in a forum such as this, could spur one of the more creative of our group to come up with that challenging design.

By michael on Unrecorded Date: Edit

some 4x4 amphibious atvs have suspension,take the coot for instance.the coot has twin articulated body hulls that spin on a center joint and acts as a suspension system keeping one or more wheels on the ground at all times.this system is crude but works and is very dependable.as far as flotation is concerened coots do very well in the water although a little front heavy(motor and trans in front)but will move along at four to five miles an hour depending on tire choice.i think suspension is a good idea on all vehicles.

By Dean P. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Suspension for Max II has already been done and is currently waiting for patent approval. 7 1/2 inches of articulation. fully progressive and adjustable. better side to side water stability. no retail price set as of yet. will post again when it becomes available.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I can hardly wait to see a max or argo with a suspension system. I am very doubtful it will be effective or reliable. hopefully they prove me wrong so when I am an old geezer I can still handle to ride. sounds expensive and we will turn into the quads as far as reliability going over rough terrain i.e. rocks and stumps. suspensions on vehicles this heavy will half to be very stong hence will increase the weight of the vehicle inturn will kill flotation in the water. r.i. and ogd prove me wrong without emptying my wallet.

By Doug Barker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Very interesting comments! My buddy and I are currently scheming up a design for somthing a little different. It will be amphibious, with four wheel drive and steering (can switch to two wheel steering on demand for higher speeds)will weigh 700lbs fully loaded (450 empty), have 12" of ground clearance, and 4'x6' O.D.
Don't get me wrong, we have been die-hard 6/8 wheeler fans for over a decade but after owning new Argos and rebuilding a Wedge, MaxIV, Muscateer, and an Attex, we think we can overcome some of the inherent flaws of all of these. (specialty trans,large size,weight,high cost, and general high complexity)
Our vehicle will still have a PE tub but the axles will exit the body above the waterline and each of the 4 rawhides will be driven from a reinforced fork assy that extends down for the 12' clearance. The final drive at each wheel will be motorcross chains and sprockets. Solid axles in the front and back will transmit power through U-joints to the chains for the steering.
There's still a lot to figure out but we are well on the way!
Any ideas would be great or go ahead and rip our idea to shreds! (just don't tell our wives about this)

By Alan Harper on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Doug,
Sounds similar to a Coot. I was considering adding 60's era VW bus gear reduction units to mine but that's about as far as I got with the idea. If memory serves me right they are good for about 4" of extra clearance. I think I'd use something considerably heavier than dirt bike chains. 80 pitch is good for 3300 lbs which may be enough for the little rawhides. Turning puts incredible amounts of force on the drivetrain with a live axle and good tires.
Alan
http://www.industrial-magic.com/coot.html

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Doug,
When you restored the muskateer did you put a bigger motor in it and use the same transmission? I have one I am gonna restore, but not sure if I wanna use that big heavy tranny.

By Doug Barker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

argogeru,
Its been a long time ago but it did have a tank of a tranny in it. For some reason I'm thinking some of the trans parts said Borg Warner on them.
(that may have been the Attex).
As for the engine, it had a locked up 2-stroke on it that I replaced with a 14 H.P Briggs.
I do recall it had mostly #40 chain in it which proved to be nothing but trouble. It did have some cool big alum bell shaped bearing carriers that the axles went through on the outside of the tub. By your screen name you must know tons about 6 wheelers...well your gonna need it when restoring a muskateer. It reminds me of the guy I got it from. Good luck with your project.
Doug

By Doug Barker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Alan,
I have a lot of experience with VW engines and trans but not with bus reduction units. Your idea sounds like it will work though. Keep in mind that some dirtbikes produce 15 HP and up which requires their chains and sprockets to be very strong but still lightweight.
Good luck.
Doug

By Jim Wolcott on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Guys
If you add gear reduction units from an early
VW bus your drive train will be backwards, forward
will be reverse and reverse will be forward. VW
flipped the ring gear in the trans to overcome this change in the busses. The reduction box has
a small gear on the top attached to the axle from
the trans, the lower gear is attached directly to
the stub axle so it turns in the opposite direction.
Jim

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Doug,
I am going to eliminate the chain problem. I am putting argo axles,bearings,seals,sprockets and double 50 chain for the drive train. By doing this with the support of a metal frame on the inside of the body I will be able to put 25 or 26 in. tires on it. I think the transmission will go to the scrap heap; to heavy and to complicted to operate with the foot pedals. It would not accomidate my style of riding. 23 hp. briggs and stratton will be the power plant.
I was going to whack it in half and stretch the body to accomidate 2 more wheels (a 8 wheeled muskateer) but my friend who does fiberglass said it would lose some of its strength. A 8 wheeled muskateer would be sweet but to much work.

By Doug Barker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Argogeru,
Sounds like your on it!
When you screw in that 23 h.p. mill HANG ON TIGHT!
It would be nice to use an Argo trans. Theres alot
of talk about T20 vs Argo trans but I like the Argo trans better (and vehicle) because the brakes are on the outside and can be easily changed.
And dual 50 chain is the ONLY ONLY ONLY chain I'll ever have in a 6 wheeler.
Good Luck
Doug

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

doug,
I also prefer the argos tranny, more reliable and easier to maintain.

By phil on Unrecorded Date: Edit

DOUG while you are looking at engines look at the GEO 3cyl engine, 16" from pulley to flywheel and 18" wide, but could be smaller with motorcycle carbs to the head.Less then 120lbs 50-60 hp.I am using this in a custom scratch built Coot.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I was just reading all the posts on this string and I think I have an idea on the suspension problem (at least something to consider if you havn't already.)

I can't say for the MAX, but ARGO has a front bench seat for the driver and a passenger. Their is a storage area under the seat and is attached by a hinge. What if you rigged some sort of suspension system to the seat. I have no clue in hell how this could be done, I'm only 17 but the mind is full of ideas, could you use the storage space to put some sort of spring system in? You would loose the storage space which is great for tools, and spare belts etc. but ODG has a storage pouch you can order.

Back to the suspension. If you created some sort of base, that was like a slider or something, with springs inside. Picture a cardboard box that has a lid that slides overtop of the bottom. This idea could work. Using the right spring, it could provide good suspension. The back seat along the side is a different story. (I hate those seats, im going to order a back bench seat for my MAGNUM 8x8)

To allow the seat to slide up and down, cut slats along the outside edge and bolt them in, but loose enough that it is not too tight, then the seat could move up and down while still not moving side to side. This may just be stupid, but it very well could work if you really wanted suspension without loosing the amphibious aspect. This is only an idea for ARGO, can't speak for the MAX, never been in one, or seen one other than on the internet.

If anyone has any thoughts or comments, please post them or e-mail me.

By Pete on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Phil
You're building a scratchbuilt Coot? Sounds fantastic, do you have any pictures of it, or a website? The Coot had a great solution to the suspension problem, have you used the same system of a split tub? If so, how did you arrange the pivot mechanism? Wheel sizes? Differentials? Inquiring minds want to know!

Pete

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Regarding my post above, does anyone think that this would work? I would like to have some opinions before I try rigging something up on my 8x8 Magnum. Any comments, suggestions are welcome.

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David -

My 8x8 Response has the fuel tank under the storage box, and I wouldn't want to risk a spring penetrating the tank. The seat frame spans the width of the vehicle, and support legs carry the weight down to the frame. What do you think of this idea? Weld together a second seat frame that exactly matches the factory fram layout. Use four spring to attach the home made frame to the factory frame, and attach the seat to the home made frame? Seat springs were used on buckboards years ago. I don't see why the idea wouldn't work if it were done carefully. You might want some kind of structure or shock absorber to keep the seat from wobbling on the springs, though.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Good Idea. I didn't consider the fuel tank part. I have never liked the fact that I am sitting on 8 gallons of gas. Although that is probably on of the best places to put it, (probably the only place) the idea just doesn't agree with me.

Another thought i just had was using a matress type thing. The coushion on the seat only has a board in the bottom and the stuffing. If you took the matress idea, gave it more padding on the top, you have a seat with springs inside, and its comfortable. YOu would just have to mount it onto the factory frame somehow.

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David -

The factory seat mounts onto the seat frame with a pair of metal mounting brackets. Why not build your new seat, then move the brackets from the factory seat to the custom seat? Or, for more money, buy a replacement seat, take the factory cushion off, and rebuild the seat? The one drawback with all this is that the seat back would have to be raised to accomodate the thicker seat, no matter what method is used. (That didn't dawn on me until Saturday)

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

All great suggestions and I wil consider them all. Any other comments or suggestons will be taken and likely used.

By DaveButler on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Doug and Argogeru - what are the current states of you builds?

By Bruce on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Idea for a track and suspension system that I plan to build this summer. I plan on replacing all six tires with some tucker snowcat sprockets that I have laying around. Then, build a set of rails that run along the body on each side, the machine will be cradled in the rails. (rails are connected under the machine. Each rail will have a three torsion bar axles attached to it. Each axle will have a 14 inch tire on it. The front of each rail will have a adjustable extension with a ten inch tire mounted to it ( this is for adjusting the track tension) Then I will build my track with crossmembers timed to the spockets. The entire system will lift the machine about 18 inches in the air. If it works, it would work as a simple kit to convert any six wheeler to full tracks with full suspension and extra clearance. Built from aluminum it ought not weigh too much.....

By Greg W. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Uncomfortable seat problem,plus lack of suspension problem,do they make a low profile air ride seat like they use on the big rigs? Would require a small inexpensive electric air pump,but I bet would go a long way towards improving the ride!

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David, Take a look at the seat suspension in the HydroTraxx. Mine has a set of bucket seats that have an adjustable spring loaded set up with a 4 or 6 inch travel.I also have a 14 gal. fuel tank directly below the seat. The system works well for this old 60 year old back.
Bubba

By helictite on Unrecorded Date: Edit

suspension?
a possible solution would be a swing arm for each wheel incorporating a drop gear type drive such as used by Pinzgauer/Haflinger also Unimogs use it in beam axle form...difficult to make as robust as rigid axle system...also your balance of vehicle would be altered through for and aft pitch....also can have unpredictability in acceleration situations.

By David Marriott on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Several years ago I posted a message on the list regarding building a 6x6 with suspension, and the only response was from a few red neck members who shot me down for my ideas.
Good to see that other intelligent people also have the same ideas.

By Eugene Kochnieff on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David,

I think the whole suspension idea is the main thing holding back the 6x6 market IMHO. The way i see it Given the US profit motive if there was a cheap simple way to do it you would be driving one now, but alas there appears to be no Simple way to do it. Sure there are ways but, torsion bars , swing arms, CV joints , gearboxs, etc etc are all heavy and costly. Probably the most reliable way would be to mount Hydro motors on the end of torsion bar sprung swing arms. Hoses are flexible and hydro motors are well sealed.

I guess this means the hydro trax is the best vehicle to modify but it is already alot more costly than the cheap and cheery argos and maxs.

By JOHN GLENN on Unrecorded Date: Edit

THERE IS ALREADY A PATENTED MODEL OF A 6 WHEEL
AMPHIBIOUS THAT HAS A SUSPENSION SYSTEM AND
INBOARD PROPELLAR THAT IS RECESSED IN THE HULL
SO THAT YOU CAN DRIVE OVER LOGS OR ROCKS WITH
NO DAMAGE. THE SUSPENSION SYSTEM WILL RETRACT
THE WHEELS UNDER THE BODY FOR WATER TRAVEL AND
RAISE THE BODY 17 INCHES ABOVE GROUND, MAKING
THIS MACHINE UNSTICKABLE. I OWN ONE OF THESE
MACHINES, IT MEET ALL REQUIREMENTS OF THE ULTIMATE
ATV. VIEW THIS BABY ON THE WEBB AMPHIBITRUCK.COM
I BELIEVE YOU WILL AGREE

By Howard Hoover on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Just to correct you it is not AMPHIBITRUCK it is
Amphitrucks and only one picture came up on the
site for me the rest are X'd out or something
and it is not a 6x6 from what I can tell it is
just a 4x4 according to the drawing.

By M.W. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I use 5 ton military trucks as water trucks. I am looking for a good place to find parts for these. Can anyone recomend a place for me? I am also looking for some airride seats to put in these water trucks. Does anyone know of a big rig bone yard that i could go to .
Thanks M

By budman (209.115.67.76) on : Edit

Military axles could be substituded for cement truck axles and you might get lucky and find the air ride suspension parts as well. I run 55 tires on my 88 chevy truck.