Route 6x6 Discussion Board

Max Vs. Argo: The REAL Comparison!

Route 6x6 Discussion Board: My Favorite Machine: Talk about you favorite ATV and Why.: Max Vs. Argo: The REAL Comparison!

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	Archive through October 31, 2000	6

By mjlemon on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ok which one would be more practical in Ohio i need a worh horse but fun in the mud. WHICH ONE
MAX OR ARGO

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

That's an easy one. They will both do the job for you. The Argo will be a much better work machine and the Max slightly better toy.

P.J.

By 85 MAX IV on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Actually the argo will make a much better fort for your kids or planter box in your yard. Seriously buy the one you like the best. I have a MAX and love it. But I am looking for a planter.

By COLT on Unrecorded Date: Edit

WICH ONE IS BETTER IN MUD BECAUSE I ENJOY GOING TO THE STRIP MINES BUT I NEED PULLING POWER AND A GOOD CARGO CAPACITY,WHAT THIS ABOUT ARGO STERING PROMBLES.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

85 max IV,
I HAVE A MAX II I WAS GOING TOO USE FOR A PLANTER, ARE YOU INTERESTED?

By 85 MAX IV on Unrecorded Date: Edit

No thanks.... I just got a sweet deal on an attex. The guy gave me $ 50.00 and I took it off his hands. I think I'm going to make a garden pond out of it for my back yard. I'm pretty sure it will work for that.

By Royle Vance Wood on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have long been interested is the Max 6x6 but have been unable to try one since their are no dealers nearby. in my region of the U.S. (Utah)the 4 wheelers seem to be king. In fact I have not seen anyone driving a 6x6. I have several owners of 4 wheelers if they have ever considered a 6x6 and they tell me they are either to slow or do not ride a comfortable as the 4 wheelers. Would some one please make some knowledgeable comparisons for me? Thank you. Vance

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Quads and 6x6s are two completely different machines. Quads are fast and pretty and give a comfortable ride. 6x6s are made to get through the toughest terrain while carrying multiple passengers and cargo. High speed is not an issue in the terrain 6x6s were designed for.
Utility 4x4 riders have an average trail speed of 5-20mph. 6x6s can take many of the tougher obsticles faster than a 4x4 can.
6x6s also give you the option to get dirty or stay clean. They keep you clean and dry or you can get covered in mud if you want. With a quad there is no option. If there is mud on the ground it will soon be on you.
For me, there is really no comparison. Max is my fishing boat, hunting vehicle, cargo hauler, and all around most fun I've ever had off road. There is just nothing like it.

Max dealer in UT:
TROY LYMAN
MOUNTAIN LAND MOTORS LOT 2
7645 SOUTH 2000 EAST
SOUTH WEBER, UT 84405
(307) 786-4300

MaxRules

By Chris on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Vance, I have both a Quad (2 wheel Drive) and a Max Buffalo. The Quad is much quicker than the Max, and can usually get through tigher spaces like woods without trails, as it is much thinner. The Quad rides very nicely, less bone jarring than the Max but my Max isn't that bad really. My trail speed on my Quad is usually around 25MPH, and that's comfortable riding. It's got more, but in the woods and such I rarely get to see much of a higher speed. My Max is slower, I tend to only do about 15 top on trails (But it feels like it's going much faster!). I do take my wife with me on my Quad, so it can do two people just fine. We often go camping on it, packing gear on the front and back racks and both of us on the seat, it does just fine. My Max is great for this, we get to sit side by side and carry all the gear in the world on the back without concern. I've actually taken my wife and I, put hay bails in the back and had 4 more people on it's back, a total of 6 people all going camping on it. (Not realy rough terrain, so litle chance of tipping over). The Quad and Max are two very different buggies, the Max can work and play with the best of 'em. The Quad is not really capable of much work, but it's fun. I prefer my Max.

By Brian Gaultney on Unrecorded Date: Edit

You Guys talk MAX vs. Argo and in the same breath you are really talking trash vs. junk! If you really want a tough, robust, full all hydrostat drive machine...then the real deal is the Hydro Traxx! I had the opportunity to drive the 44HP 4 cylinder turbo charged diesel and the 42HP 4-cylinder Nissan! They are some awesome machines! You can load-up your Trash Max and Junk Argo and haul them away once and for all! You may pay a little more but anyone that wants a tough low maintenance work horse...I challenge you to look at the Hydro Traxx.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

brian,
Bring your twice or more the money hydro-traxx to humphrey or hespin acres and I will blow you away in speed, mud, and any other thing you can think of. the prices for the hydrotraxx are a joke and the machine at humphrey a couple of years ago didn't even fit through alot of the trails. that thing bottoms out twice as easy as an argo or max with that 6 foot wide underbelly and well over a thousand pounds of hydrolic weight. Obviously you have no experience with argo because it is a high quality machine that will outpreform a hydrotraxx anyday. My bigfoot has lasted four years and 450 hours of hard trail and mud abuse with no breakdowns at all. If I cant break a machine no one can. max guys better speak up because even the argogeru thinks a max will outpreform a hydrotraxx. To heavy to wide and WAY TO EXPENSIVE!

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

brian,
I think the average person buying an aatv cannot or will not by priciple pay the following prices for a 6 wheeler.
base model: 13,500.00
27 hp : 13,900.00
nissan : 17,500.00
kubota diesel : 17,650.00

Plus tax,shipping,set-up,and any
options that you want and we all
half to have a few options.
hey fred sowerwine,
How about psi on a 1300 lb. machine plus a 260 lb. guy and a 115 lb. wife with a cooler of budweiser and ice? I think i forgot that is dry weight on that machine too.
Any hydrotraxx owners out their? give us your opinion of the machine and how many hours you have put on it.

By the amazing roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

so gaultney, did you buy one?

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brian,,,I have been concidering a "Hydro-powered 6x6 ever since I found about them. Either the 45 hp turbo diesel,,,or the gas 42 hp Nissan. Which one did you like the best of the two you rode in?

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

HEY ARGOGERU: in order to make the psi factor math i must need to know first if the buds are REGULAR OR LIGHT!!!.........

happy bouncing and keep them cool!!!!

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brian Gaultney,
I have to say, I never rode one of them, but I have seen them and heard about them. I am with argogeru and say come ride with us. I have 7 to 9 rides a year and it is open to all atv's. I would bet that your Hydro Traxx will not be able to go where the Max or Argo will go. Come out and ride with us and try to prove Argogeru and myself wrong. I would like to see it in action. You will have a fun time riding with us.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Yessirree argogeru, PSI on the ground is what it is all about. Gotta keep the weight of passenger and vehicle below 1000 pounds (with the presently available tires) if you are going to go where I want to go. And as soon as they get a hydrostatic to effectively operate at 1/4 throttle, I might consider it a viable power source. They need to put fertilizer spreader tires on the Hydro Traxx, Triton predator and Landtamer) to get it down to equal the PSI on the ground of an Argo and there is no way any of the above machines will ever get as light footed (and well balanced) as a Max.

You can always tell the people who don't use their machine in tough terrain; they are happy with what they have and they don't have a Max.

By Craig Lasher (Celasher) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

If you ever find a good condition KID by LTV. it will really surprise you. The Hydo-stat 8x8 will spoil you. I have never had it in deep mud, it is most likely not quite as good there, it is heavy. But any where else, look out.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

jungle boy,

I take bud.

fred,
glad to see we are in agreement, I was expecting that tidbit at the end of your post, I would expect nothing less from you! later.

By David P. Johnston on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I am about to plunk down somewhere around $15,000 for an Argo Conquest. (Holds six people...hope it will hold two adults, one kid and five dogs.) Wife is disabled. Alternate choice is two cheap snowmobiles for the winter, two 4 wheel ATVs with a back seat for the rest of the year (no fun for the dogs), and stay away from water. Total cost far exceeds even a dressed up Argo. A Max can only carry four, so no matter how I do it, also not fun for the dogs. Room alone in my book puts the Argo on the #1 list. (Anyone from Reno who would like to do a double in the snow or sand or dirt?)

By Randy Laib on Unrecorded Date: Edit

OK! Here is my question to you Max Pro experienced riders. I am in the need of another machine. I now have a polaris sportsman and love it. I rode a Max and an Argo and think that the Max is a better choice even though I think the Argo is better looking. I see the need and want to buy either a Max or a Argo as a second machine. I like that the Argo has more room in the seat versis the MaxII. But I can over look that since the Max has the skidsteer transmition. Is the Max II or the Max IV the best one to buy? Do they perform equally other than the extra room in the Max IV? i Will pay the extra money for the Max IV if it will give me better performance. Any imput on experience that anyone has had. Would like to hear from those who have owned both. That would give me a good idea from some hands on users.
Thanks so much and good riding!

Randy from Minnesota.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Randy,
Test drive both vehicles thoroughly before buying either one, and look at the frame, bearings, and general quality of each machine. Any good dealer will let you test drive for an hour or so, a couple of times if necessary. I suggest a bigfoot with a set of tracks from matt on this page and you will go were no other atv can go. good luck.

By mattmax2 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have used both max and argo in my exp the max is a better choice its easyier to work on and the parts are cheaper. I have alot of 6 wheelers in my family 3 max 2 machines and 2 max 4 machines and 1 argo big foot which we call the 3 wheeler.Because of the diff tranny.My Max 2 will out perform my fathers Argo bigfoot and he will be the first to admit it but he likes the looks and low range ability of his machine.I have never needed a low range in my max or my sisters max or her husbands max 4`s.A max will work too Ive hauled trees stumps moved dead cars saved some helpless water snowmobilers from an island they were stuck on.

I guess Mainers prefer Maxes

By Larry Nash on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I posted this before but lost it! I'm an old duckhunter. I need an amphib to get out to the blind and back with two guys. Running characteristics while floating are probably at least as important as on-the-ground performance. I'm operating in flooded pastures and on dikes.
No steep hill climbing involved. The terrain is not particularly rough. Being able to go slow with control is more important than going fast. I don't need to ever go faster than 5 or 6 mph on ground and 2 or 3 mph in water. Price is important, so if the Max II will do this, that's good! There are no dealers in SW Oregon, so it's not easy for me to try these things out. If it doesn't make a lot of noise, that would be a plus. What kind should I buy?

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Larry,
You can put up to a 9.9 hp outboard on an argo. I use mine to duck hunt and love it. the outboard gas tank I put in the floor board in back and then have a carpeted platform over the backseats for my lab to sit on and I hunt right out of it. there is endless possibilities with an argo.

By Ed Lockwood on Unrecorded Date: Edit

From one (Old Duck Hunter) to another. Larry, find a Dealer someplace and drive the Max11. Water, mud, snow, sand, tree stumps, bolders, and anything else you might think of, will not stop this machine. Mine is (Tan) in color. It has a roll bar that acts like a (tent Pole) which I drape a Camo cloth over. Just flip it when the time is right. A rack off the back carries 44 decoys in a sack and has enough room left for all the other eqipment. I put a gun rack off the front where I place my shotgun (after I set up) right handy. Mine is no louder than a 4x4 and the best parts is: If, during the day I might like to move to that place a Duck Hunter sees after first light, I simply start it up and move the whole darn thing. You have a blind on wheels sort of thing going. Heck, I use it to jump them along the edges. I can drive within range before they know what is happening. I go where small sneek boats can't get to! I even run the engine during the bad cold weather and the heat from the engine
warms the seat without the fumes. Best all around machine I've ever owned. Good Hunting..Ed L

By Ken Thompson on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I use my Argo Bigfoot for both Duck Hunting and Deer Hunting. I put a 7hp Johnson on the rear and my dog in the back with my gun and camo weather gear. I have a net strapped to the side with 60 decoys. I can sit in the water all day and take in not one drop....I love that feature.
Deer hunting is the same. I go up state and can carry my tree stand (hanger or ladder), my bow or shotgun, and 100# of bait. Last year I went across a small river, through a large swamp and shot a massive 10 pointer. Once I gutted the animal I strapped him over the hood and put the rest of my gear in the back. I drove out by myself without breaking a sweat. I have plenty of power and have never got stuck. When it gets real muddy or snowy I slip on the Tru Trax and can go through anything mother nature throws my way. No try that with a Max II!!! The Argue is the better choice for sportsman.

Ken

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I think the Argo looks a little better than the Max, but the real difference for me is to have a machine that can be worked on and be modified with ease. I think the Max II unlike the Argo or even the Max IV is the best machine around for going out and having fun in the bad stuff. One of the greatest benefits of the Max II is the position of the operator. Unlike an Argo or the Max IV the driver is in a great position with the legs streached out in front with no obstructions in the way to bother your knees. I've never owned an Argo, but I look at them and don't like having the engine in the front right where I want my legs to be. I like having the engine behind me, its like a sports car, your in such a comfortable position for really hard riding. In the Max II I feel like I sit way down inside it while in the Max IV I feel like I'm on top getting ready to slide out of the seat. On the Argo I can't compare since I've never sit in one but it dosn't look as comfortable as the Max II. The last reason I think the Max II deserves honors in the sport category is that it is the easiest to modify. I think the people who made the last Badlands ride can attest to the power of the Kohler 25 in the Max II. About the only things I don't like about the Max is the bearings and the seals arounds the axles that require more work to keep up than the Argo's seals. I like the 25" tires but then again I think on some of the real bad hills I ride on I'm thinking the 22 do just fine for me. For an all out sport machine that can be worked on easily and modified to whatever you want, I'm sold on the Max II. If you want to just hunt and fish out of the thing then I would probably go ahead and get a Max IV or an Argo, but if you just want a sports car feel and want to tackle some of the worst terrian around I would get a Max II and put a 25 HP Kohler in it with a good custom roll cage for those unexpected roll overs.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I agree with ken. More storage, and better ground clearance with a bigfoot. I have had three deer on my machine, one on the hood and two in the back with me and my hunting partner and our gear. She was piled high and we came 1 1/2 mi. out of the bush through two streams with ease.

By Larry Nash on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks to everyone who responded with info on amphibians for duck hunting. Even tho dealers are far from me, I'm going to have to visit a few. The Argo supporters are as convincing as the Max enthusiasts, so one needs to lay hands on the products. Thanks again.

By Steve Laxil on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Larry

ALso look at the new Argo camo pattern. It is nice for duck hunting matching the tall cat tails and grass almost perfectly. The Argo machine has excellent water tight seals that the Max does not have. For a duck hunter staying dry is of the utmost inportance. The transmission on the Max is slightly better but the Argo tanny is built like a rock and suites me just fine. I hear the new Argo 6x6 Conquest has a new designed tranny. The 24hp engine would be nice. Drive the Argo you will be impressed.

Steve

By Tom Pike on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Larry

For me reliability is everything on one of these machines. Remember you are deep in terrain that almost nothing can get to. If you break down it will be a ruined trip that you will never forget. Reliability is only slightly more important in a submarine. The max may get you there a little faster overall but the Argo is build like a tank.

Tom

By Larry Nash on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks for the new info. Please keep it coming! (I look here every couple of days to see if there is anything new.)

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i went 4 a test drive in a max 2 once and we took it out in a lake with no waves at all .... we vooted round for 5-8 minuits...after we came out i niticed like there was splashing commoin from inside the floor...turns out the max is only watertight when your not spining the tires .. he said if ure spinning the tires u have to come in after 20 min or ull sink..and the max u can stay out is 4-5 hours...anyways on the was back down the trails...one of the seatbelts got caught in the chain...causing the right side to lock *dont ask me how this happened* anyways...i can spin the tires around a lake in my argo 24/7 and it dosnt take on water and its a 1984...argo r a lil nose heavy but u get ised to it...aso the 3 wheel drive issue...if u have time behing the stick u learn to drag one side right b4 u go into the mud causing bothsides to spin..equally..i learned the proper ways to do this after having bald tires in 3 inches of snow...argos r workers maxs r players...end..also i find that the maxs t-20 u cant make a smooth turn it locks one side 2 soon./.on my arog i can make a nice long round turn with no probs.. c yas

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

also..i was parked side a road sign..i accadently hit the throtle with no more than 1 mph i bent the sign over...luckyey noone was there i called the town and said some krazy teenagers did it :)

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

FOR SAFETY REASON EVERY AMPHIBIOUS VEHICLE SHOULD HAVE BILGE PUMP!!!

By newmax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Not sure if I agree with that scott. I have a max 4 and live on a river. I go in up and down the river all the time and never take on water.

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i have no clue man...all i can tell u is what the sales man and rec industries told me..and what i saw im dont know he conditionof this machine at allmaby it had bad bearings?!?

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well Scott, If you were in a max that leaked, it had a mechanical problem (either bad bearings or not uniformly tight bearing flange bolts). A little water might seep through, but not enough to worry about. The bearing cavity does need to be full of grease for a water tight seal. Turning wheels has nothing to do with leaks.

Any one who can't make smooth turns with the T-20 needs to rest their arms on their knees so they can hold their hands steady. If you grab and jerk, yes you will have rough turns - if you know what you are doing, they will be smooth as a conventional vehicle.

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred...I found that it would make a smooth turn to a sertian point then it would suddenly lock one side...with my argo it lockswhen the stick wont pull any further.. mady the tranny needed lubing..i did find it got out of mud a little easier than my argo though

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Scott, You don't understand how the T-20 works. Of course when you have the brake completely engaged, the side is going to lock up. The tranny brake (and power) bands are wrapped around the drums twice and go from completely tight to completely loose depending on gear and position of the steering laterals. In your Argo, you are used to just braking the side (power is still put to that side even if it is less due to the differential). I assume you can engage both brakes and your machine will still go forward under its own power (not so with a max - when you start to engage the brake you have completely disengaged the power to the wheels - likewise, when you have power to the wheels, full or partial, you never have any brake applied).

It takes a while to get the hang of a T-20 (several hours of actual use, maybe 10) before one can make it work right. That is why I don't think people should judge the machine on a quick personal test drive. The way to judge a Max is to have a demonstration by an experienced operator. Most max dealers are really something else first and they do not know much about the machines and even less in how to operate them. I will practically guarantee that anyone who has the desire to learn how to drive a machine with the T-20 in it will never like anything else and will wonder why anything else is used. I will be the first to admit that not everyone is able to drive a max, or machine with a T-20 in it, efficiently and I guess it is too hard for some people to ever master. It takes smooth, controlled hands (just like riding a horse with a snaffle bit).

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

fred yes now i understand what u say..and it is true the preson driving told me it was belt drive :s whick really worried me lol...and yes i cna hold the breaks on and apply power to the wheels..by doing that i striped on of the sprokets in my argo..which was a big mess..so when u put the breaks on and u have power the machine wont stop or slow down??

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

fred i have some vehicles with t-20's,
and i can drive them well,
fact is i like other tranys better,
the t-20 is more work to drive than some others and dangeros at times when the others are still relyable,
but there tough as nails .
and thats all thats good about them.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David, You are one of the ones I am referring to who have never mastered the T-20. You continue to insist one cannot slip steer the T-20 (have one side partially engaged, the other side fully engaged) and you don't seem to know how to partially engage the brakes when descending a steep hill. The T-20 can go down the steepest of hills at whatever speed the operator desires and very safely I might add (if the operator has smooth, steady hands). I will agree that going down steep hills can be a workout for the arms.

Scott, If your last sentence was a question about the T-20 - it is impossible to put power to the wheels and have the brake on at the same time with the T-20. That is why the performance is so much more efficient. My guess is an Argo loses about five horsepower through the design of its drive system when compared to a T-20 equipped machine when climbing and making a turn.

Some people brag on how tough the Argo is: doesn't sound so problem free to me!

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

to "squeeze" the features of the t-20 first it's important to check for proper band's adjustment since same stick (l/r) control at same time clutch-brake funtion on each side.....when bands are adjusted properly t-20 should be capable to smoot transition between free turn thru hard turn by blocking each side tire bank (l/r)..general idea is to be capable to release clutch band funtion before brake band action start to apply...when full loaded with atf (dextron) fluid on it the t-20 is very dependable since all internal parts and brakes bands transfer heat to housing more efficient than dry metal to air on "clean" ambiance..far away from grinding compound (mixture of grease with sand/dirt)

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

fred whats the problem with that i find that not being able to apply the breaks under power dangerous...what if u had to slam on the breaks for a deer down the trails bvut u werent totall off the throtal..that could be a serious problem..my argo can climb just about any hill i wan it to..the only adantage of the t-20 over the argo is that it is a bit better in mud..but an expernced argo driver can make both wheels spinwhit out alot of problems..

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Scott, You still don't understand. There is nothing to prevent you from putting on the brakes with the engine revved going down the trail (but have your seatbelt fastened, because you will come to a quick stop). The point I am trying to make is you do not waste horsepower by putting power to the wheels at the same time you are braking. I didn't say it was a problem -it is just one of the many reasons why people who like the T-20 "like the T-20". Most T-20 machines can climb steeper hills than the owner wants to try. Don't forget PSI on the ground - that is what allows one machine to out perform an other.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,
obviously you do not ride with bigfoot owners, maxes wont get threw the swamp at humphrey, most wont try it, bigfoots go through it with ease. and an eight wheel argo with the proper tires will out climb any six wheeler, they dont tend to roll end over end like a six. Ive watched argo 6 and maxes roll on hills and the 8 took it with no problem. the argo 8 is the ultimate hill climber.

By liflod (Liflod) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I really agree with one of Freds previous posts. It takes many, many hours of riding to get used to a T-20 skid steer transmission. I bought a basket case ATTEX and rebuilt it over a 2 month period. My first ride was in my backyard and I wondered why I bought this thing that I couldn't even control! I now have about 20 hours driving and I am just beginning to realize how much this thing is cabable of.

I also agree that if you have never driven a 6x6 or 8x8 before , you should have an experienced operator take you for a ride before you try it by yourself.

One of these days, I will get to ride with someone else so I can learn some new drivng techniques.(Are you listneing JT?)

By Russell Lee (Bigkodiak) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Argogeru,
I agree with your comments about the swamp; however you have forgotten the one exclusion to that rule....TJ
TJ being the insane driver he is will do whatever it takes to get out.
Russ

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

russ,
I wont argue with you a bit, tj is one of a kind. hope to see you guys at the spring mud run. jon.

By roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i drove a argo open diff in a GM camaro for 8 years and it sucked! i drove dave#3's T20 for 10 minutes and it iz definately tha hot setup. any you guys out there that are still undecided, go with the max2 T20 equipped tranny!

By Russell Lee (Bigkodiak) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jon
I will be there but I don't think TJ will make it. He has a big auto swap meet that lasts 9 days in April and does not have the dates yet. He wants to come but he won't make any money comin with me.
Russ

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

roadwolf,
I didn't know argos and camaros shared the same tranny. never heard a comparison so far fetched in my life.
Did you take dave#3 max t-20 in the swamp? my six wheeled camaro goes through it easy. I assume you are talking the humphrey swamp in which i Gladly pulled out 3 maxes. not that i minded because they are who i ride with, they got me on speed on the trail, I got them on going threw goo and ground clearance.

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

what does a camaro hae to do with a 6x6???

By steven caldwell (Pisgah001) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I'd like to know too....a camaro?

By Steve Laxil on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,

I have had an Attex with a T-20 for ten years. What is this you say about not losing power when applying the brakes on a T-20 6x6? That is untrue. When you apply the brakes the power is shifted from all six wheels to just three but the machine still loses power. The force of gravity alone and the fact that you are turning makes the machine lose power. I also have an Argo Bigfoot that I ride religiously. Where do you get your 5% horsepower lose while turning? My Attex has 40 Hp and I could say it loses 6% HP while turing!! This sounds like a sales pitch to me.

Steve

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

the "0" power lose concept on turning with t-20 is only true if the follow parameters are applying:

a) brake /clutch bands are proper adjusted...(means that clutch band released BEFORE brake band start to aplied)
b)control level apply only "light" enough to only partially release clutch so very smoot and wide turn are the goal

and that's the diference between t-20 when compared to an open diferential control mode where you NEED to apply some ammount of BRAKING ACTION to one bench of tires ( L or R ) to start turning..

the "clutch" on a t-20 is an a matter of fact an internal brake that forces the t-20 internal gear to turn "in reverse"...when clutch partially release as a matter of fact just slip a little this "reverse funtion" with same concept of the satellite gear inside of an open diferential WITHOUT any power lose from engine......

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Steve, did you think about what you wrote above? Do you really have a T-20 machine? When going up hill with a T-20, you do not engage the brake unless you are making a very sharp turn - just having one side turn slower or putting the side in neutral is enough to make most all turns. Yes, one loses momentum by making a turn (can be at a minimum with a skilled operator in a T-20 machine), but I disagree about losing power. The point I am trying to make is that it takes more power (to overcome the effect of the brake being on in addition to gravity if you put power to the same wheels you are applying the brake on to effect the turn. You cannot slow one side down or put one side of an Argo in neutral when you are climbing a hill as can be done with a T-20.

I said it was a guess about being 5 horsepower; it could very well be much more.

I know for a fact that I can push a max around pretty easily with the brake off and the machine in neutral. With the brake on, I cannot budge it.

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred u sound lika an max sales man tryong to get everyone to buy a max from you...my argo does nopt have a 5% power loss i dont kno where u ca that frome..also it is inpossible to have NO power loss at the wheels..i dont know where u get that from...

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Scott and Steve: The Wolf was making reference to the open type of drive system that Argo uses. It is nothing more than an open rear end (like his Camero.) Steve: I too have an Attex with 40+ HP. It might loose 6% on turns, but I doubt it is that much. I would guess it is more like 3% or less. I also have an Argo 8X8 with a 16 HP engine in it. The first time I pulled on the brake real hard I thought the motor was going to stall!!!! That thing looses, I would guess, like 50% of it's power in a hard turn!!!!!!! I can't imagine mine with tracks on it. It would be like driving a VW on one cylinder!!!!!! They both have their good points, but that Argo eats power (in turns) like there is no tomorrow!!!!

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

fred,
Please explain to me and everybody why when a max goes down a long hill by the time it is half way down its bouncing like crazy and the operator is obviously not in total control of the machine. Are all the max operators I know unable to master the t-20 after years of operation? must be or maybe the t-20 is not as safe as you claim on hills as far as braking and stopping for the normal aatv driver. Alot of t-20 operators i have talked to said the t-20 makes them nervous decending hills and also because the foot brake on their maxes break off when pants get soiled going down hills.
I have some hours on a t-20 and it is not complicated to drive, but going down hills or backing down hills that you have tried to climb is dangerous with the t-20.
The t-20 would be a perfect tranny for a racing aatv, but the argo trannys hydralic brakes are the safest for agressive trail riding, which most on this page at some time do.
I can also have my wheels turn slower on one side than the other on my argo unlike your statement to the contrary above. good day.

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

t-20 brake-clutch bands are oil cooled ( they transfer the heat thru t-20 housing via atf oil)..so for proper operation t-20 should had plenty atf-dextrol oil inside........braking down hill with t-20 it's a matter of proper operator control over sticks..as far as the 4 bands are adjusted with specs inside t-20 and plenty atf-dextron oil inside you should get good down hill control....about foot brake...they are just a joke!!! only good to support vehicle on place ( as a parking brake!!....

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

attex bob....i own a 84 argo i find the newer argos have no power and would not purchase one...mine has the 18 hp kohleri have no problems doing a 180 on pavment..on dirt there is no problem..u need to nail the gass as u make the turn to get a good turn outa an argo *that what i find anyways* my argo has very little power loss...i clocked it in a car at 41kp/h hot bad i dodnt even hav the tires pumped up hard...

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

attex bob,
a 16 in an eight wheeler? that is not stock on any of argos machines since 1982. My bet that machine eats power because it doesn't have any in the first place. single cylinder tecumseh? junk. I have an 82 eight and it is totally in pieces completely restored and the new 23 hp briggs is sitting on the bench in the barn. I just have to put it back together, proper power is the key and briggs and stratton 18 hp or above is the only engine that is a good motor for any aatv, and some two strokes like david 3rd.

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

With the T-20 and a skilled operator at the controls the Max or any other vehicle with one can be much more aggressive than any open diff. transmission. (A machine with lockers vs a machine with open diff., no match) The t-20 is the easiest to get all 6 wheels spinning all the time without having to jocky the laterals. Any one that is good behind a t-20 doesn't have any problems going down or up hills, they just must know how to use the t-20. In the goo on a Max there is no need to keep adjusting the laterals, just give it the power and go, six wheel drive with one hand made easy!

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

argogeru, OK, I misspoke. You cannot have the wheels on one side of an argo go slower than the other (at the request of the operator) without having the brake on (I think we will all agree that one side will spin like crazy while the other side barely moves, but that is not a "good thing"). The point of the whole conversation is whether or not the argo requires extra power (or loses power) when going uphill and braking to turn in relation to a T-20 which does not require the brake to be engaged to effect a turn.

Sorry, but the going downhill stuff is strictly inexperience or poor judgment. If you are going like a "bat outta hell" downhill and jerk the sticks, yes, the machine might very well bounce - but there are too many of us that have control for you to say the machine is unsafe. As far as backing down a hill that I have tried to climb -well first off, that very seldom happens and if it is fear factor that makes me stop, I just let the machine roll backwards, reducing my speed by giving the machine a little gas and propelling it forward. If I fail to climb a hill because I have lost traction, I dig holes deep enough to hold the machine while I shift into reverse and slowly back down engaging the brake as necessary. Again any problems in this area are inexperience or poor judgment. You are right, the T-20 is not complicated to drive, but it is different and until you have control of your hands and know what is going to happen when, one should be careful in what he tries to do (this is true in any machine, not just a t-20 equipped ATV)

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Argogeru: On the contrary; my Argo has "enough" power when going in a straight line. Could this machine use more power; you bet it could!!! The open rear end type of tranny Argo uses makes this low power problem worse in the turns. The fact that it is an 8X8 makes the problem even worse. The instant center is in the center of the two center axels. A 6X6 can pivot on the center axel. On my 8X8, I'm draging all 8 tires in a turn. On a 6X6 you drag only 4 tires. Whether it's a Briggs or a Tecumseh, horsepower is horsepower. You will get no argument from me when you say that Tecumseh is junk. I might add that the Briggs you recommend is only two more HP than the engine I have. But the fact remains, that this is the engine that Argo choose to put in their machine. Scott: The reason you need to nail the gas when making a turn in your Argo is because the tranny is eating bunches of power. I don't need to nail the gas when I make a turn with my T-20. When you have no problem making a 180 turn on the pavement do you have it in low range? If you own an 8X8, I bet you do.

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

actually bob i dont have it in low range...the 18 hp kholer i bet makes around 20it also has open exhastand the altonator is broken soon to be fixed..i like being able to give it more gas to turn sharper..also i recomended an older 18hp Kholer not a brigs..also it is not the tranny it is the power bveing eaten up by appliing the breaks..cuts power in a quarter when turning but a quick blip of the throtle gets this over quite fast and it has become natural after 20 years of driving it to do so,,,what is the top speed of ure 8x8 mine was clocked at 41kp/h

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i saw an old argo at humphrey with a 440cc,
boy did it fly,
i doubt they had trouble with powerloss in turns as they climbed hills,
after all if you have enoph power in the first place you can just blip the throtle n go when you need too, and with just a little braking an argo can adjust it's corse goin up hill,
with a t-20 your nutral side is NOT under power!!
you canot alter your coarse with a t-20 without loosing power at the wheeles,
with an amphicat you can alter your coars goin up hill and all the tires still have power, and with an old baker hill attex too!
as far as down hill i know im not the only t-20 owner who dreds goin down hills,
fried i have started out just inching my way down a hill and found myself soon on my frount tires with only one option!let go!
honestly outside of your expireance people have found them very hairy to take down a hill,
somtimes i'l walk down beside the atv, just in case,
not all hills though, just the realy steep ones.

By Steve Laxil on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,

Yes I do have a T-20 in my Attex 400 Chief thanks for asking! I like how you respond like a smart ass when someone challenges your theories. My machine does not have the return springs that the newer Max machines have. I agree the T-20 is a superior differencial than the Argo tranny,I never once said that. There is no machine that does not lose power while turning. Do this test Fred. Take off in your Max a slow speed. Lock up either side of the tarnsmission. The governor will then engage GIVING THE MACHINE MORE POWER TO TURN!! It is impossible to turn with out losing power this is a skid steer machine. I race my Attex all the time at my local sand pit race course. This course is a giant circle with lots of mud. It is easier for me to turn than an Argo and even a Max. My machine has much more power and the faster you go the better it turns. When it come to the mud I find that the Argo machines go through better. Yes the T-20 is easier to steer and has less power loss than the Argo, but I feel that the Argo engine and transmission placement makes it superior in the mud.

Steve

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

HEY STEVE:

with the attex 400 you allready had a very agresive machine...if you feel that with argo you handles better that with the attex you should compare tire's grip or band adjustment on your t-20....unless you try bigfoot ( with 11.00 x 25 tires) you should have better flotation over mud....by the way...it's a fact that skeed steer needs more power to make a turn but with t-20 on very wide turn (by slipping the clutch and before start to apply the t-20 brake section you should get no powerloss at all!!!

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Steve, Sorry for offending you. The point of the whole conversation is whether or not the argo requires extra power (or loses power) when going uphill and braking to turn in relation to a T-20 which does not require the brake to be engaged to effect a turn when going uphill.

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

So long as our machines are skid steer there will be a power loss in a turn. Some tanks use so-called regenerative steering to minimize the loss. Some of you may recall the discussions on double differential or even triple differential steering. They are the most efficient - and complex, heavy, and expensive. (Yes, I am leaving hydraulic drive out of the discussion.) The question is, is the power loss acceptable to you? Sorry, Fred, even the T-20 wastes power in a turn, even if you don't engage the steering brake.

Now, at the risk of irritating other Argo owners, I think the T-20 system probably is the better steering technology. However, it does not offer a low range. I bought my Argos because I wanted to two speed gear box, and I needed the cargo capacity. It is a trade-off. I do not think that the perfect-for-all-people AATV has been designed yet.

By Timothy Schotanus (Mudbuster) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The argo tranny is a differential. As one side slows to make a turn the speed on the other side will double, but more importantly the tourque is cut in half. If we have to worry this much about how much power we waste in a turn is it possable that we dont have enough engine? As long as people understand what they are getting when they buy a machine, then to each their own. Just for the record I am not argo bashing,they are a well built machine, but I drive a t-20.

By jsaylors on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey guys, I've been away for a while. Glad to see the Argo vs. Max sage continues. Thought I'd offer my $.02. I had both. 99 Argo Conquest and Max II. Traded the max off a few months back. I liked the max very much. I really liked the t-20. Driving it was a lot of fun, like driving a toy. It was quick and nimble. Very light weight and easy to work on. The things I didn't like: Very cheaply made. Bearings were junk, Axles and sub-components were junk, frame was weak, body was thin. But hey I won't put it down too much, it was a seventies something machine that had been assembled from the parts of several others.

My Argo which I still have is much more robust and heavy duty. Large enough to carry the whole family ANYWHERE we want to go. Never had a problem with the so called 3 wd system. Maybe thats because I've got 8 wheels. It too is easy to work on if you remove the firewall, although it wouldn't have hurt them to make the whole top front section (in front of the windshield) removable. It looks like a tank and is built like one. Things I don't like about the argo is the loss of power when performing uphill turns, although I've yet to run out of power. Not having a rope starter for a back-up. The cheesy runamuc tires (I changed mine to superswampers). Plastic tracks, Maxes track system is much better. Nose heavy in the water, not a problem over the last 3 years but it creates an awkward feeling. Easy to counterbalance w/ gear in the back. Charging system is weak. For the money they charge for these things, they should come standard with the 40a alternator kit. Should also come standard w/ winch bracket and a molded in cup/can holder.

When you get right down to it, you should get the one you want. I'm not the least bit prejudice. I'll ride with any of you, any day, no matter what you bring.

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jsaylors -

Hear, Hear!!

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

jsaylors,

Yea a coffee cup holder would be nice! Hahaha

By mr. tinker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

no cupholders!!!

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Why not? Then we can add a cb radio some curb feelers, maybe chi-chi balls? Cheech and Chong chain steering wheel? Heheh

By northerner on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ihave a question. Im thinking of trading my polaris for a 8 wheel argoit is a91 in great shape. Question is tha ti ahve heard tha tth they are high maintance being chain drive, both chain and sprocket onew has problems with, is that true.
im from canada so us eit for hunting mainly and taking the family out for some trips, but im worreid aboutt ehn problems i heard come with the machine. any advise ould be appreciated

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Northerner -

I have an Argo 8-wheeler. Routine maintenance is not a big problem, for the most part anyway. Spray chain lube seems to work well and is easy to apply. Greasing the bearings is straightforward except fro the front axle,around the engine. That can be frustrating. Changing the engine oil is more awkward than oiling the chains. If the machine is in good shape, it shouldn't be a problem. If they are available, get the manuals with the machine. That'll give you the schedules, etc.

By northerner on Unrecorded Date: Edit

thanks for the advise douglas. how does your go , as my polaris has gone through soemm good stuff. have you had anyproblem with yours thanks again

By roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

some stock argo's from what i hear are burnin up the brakes at 18mph! a good T20 can easily peel out at 30 to 50 mph! people, rather cruiser's who want to play it slow and safe should lQQK to a argo, but real men gotta consider a all wheel drive 6x6!!

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

roadwolf,
You are smoking crack! bands burn not brakes. were do you get your information? are you the producer of the t-20 or what. come on, get real!

By northerner on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i use the machine for hunting not playing- i dont go 30 - 50 mph in the bush when hunting- you could never o that speed where i hunt anyway, terrain would never alow it. being from canada- the parts are alot eaiser to get for a argo then a max. and i need the room that onmly argo offers in there 8 wheeler- does max offer a 8 wheeler, if not they should ocnsider making one. i need a well built amchine that is relaible as i dotn wan t to get way in the bush broken down.- but thanks for the advice anyway roadwolf

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

As far as the Max verse Argo goes they are both very different machines. It is all in how you plan on riding. I own both Argo's and Max's along with some older machines from the early 70's. The Max would be a "sport" machine. Very light weight,quick and nimble,"with the gov. disconected. The trade off is the max is built very cheap. It will not hold up to the hard trail riding,hill climbing,tree bashing,river jumping,snow plowing,tree pulling,that I do with my Argo. The argo is slower through the turns and that is the trade off for having a geared transmission. As far as the 3 wheel peel goes, I have been to all of the rides with max's and argo's they both get stuck it is all in the driver,tires,horse power,and ground clearence. Both machines are fun to own. If I want to race around on flat land and go fast I take my 45-50 mph max that is hopped up. If I want brute power and break through some new trails I take the bigfoot. Everyone should own one of each. That is the true answer. Matt

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well said Matt435. It only took since October 2000 when this thread started. Take note all you Argo and Max bashers.

P.J.

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Northerner, sorry it took so long to get back to you. I use my Argo mostly in and around a tree farm. I have never had any trouble with it in the trees, plowing through brush, crossing water, dragging trees, climbing over fallen trees, etc. The only trouble I had was crossing an artificial lake that had been drained recently. The lake bed was mud the consistancy of whipped cake frosting or potters clay, and was over 6 feet deep. I tried to cross it. Big mistake. Other than that it has done everything I've asked it to. Vehicle maintenance has been straightforward. Actually, I have had more trouble with the Briggs engine than anything else, and that has all been warrantee work.

By newmax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

matt i was at humphry this year, I saw a guy named any ride his max 11 harder than anyone there. he had no problems with his machine. there were 2 maxes that went head to head in the mud race a max 11 and a max 1v. they both flew over those logs very fast and hard. Also andy was flying through the trails in the night ride with a 4 wheeler and keeping up. I talked to the person riding the 4 wheeler and they said they couldn't lose the max.

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Newmax, Humphry is a mild ride compared to what we do here in IN. A max will hold up for a little bit but not long. Take your max, park it by a argo bigfoot pull the bellypans,hoods,tops on both machines and look inside. The proof is in the pudding!!! I own both Argo's and Max's I know how they are built and both have strong points and weak points. I don't understand why it took max 30 years to figure out that they need a bearing on the inside axle end instead of a cheesy bushing? Why is that??? can anyone tell me? Also whay don't they use fine thread or nylocks, I am always checking for loose nuts and bolts. How about the pins that connect the sticks to the trany, that is cheesy too. Max is 90 % there to having a great machine that would hold up like the argo but they fall short, I would like to see the max built beter, they are starting to get on the right track by going with splined axles and inner bearings but what about the other little things? I do like the Max factory guys alot. They are a blast to ride with and they dont care what you are riding, they are there to ride with everyone and have a good time. They even came to my camp fire at the Attica ride last fall. As far as the Argo factory guys, I was at humphry last year and a argo bigfoot owner asked a question and they blew him off. I was not impressed at all, I was sad that the guys who built my machine were not there to have fun? Matt

By the amazing roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

argogeru,
no i don't smoke crack, that is against the law. i just sip on sum ol' tennesse whiskey from dawn to dusk. me, manufactor t20's? what a great idea!
experience, you say? dave#3's toilet and that GM camaro. and ya know that 'ol southern sayin', in tha mornin' i'll be sober but you will still be stupid!!

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I'm just glad these are all opinions, just keep thinking that your machine is the best and that will make you feel the best. Being able to fix and modify your Max, Argo, or whatever you ride to make it the toughest and the baddest around is what really makes the machine, plus driver experience. Just think if no one ever improved on their cars and trucks when they had dragsters and monster trucks, and just used them like they just rolled off the showroom floor. What kind of fun would that be? If it were not for people going out and improving on the initial design then there would be no contest and no real fun to see how capable each others machines are. I'm just saying to be careful about saying how tough your machine is because chances are there is someone else's tougher than your so called unstopable machine.

By Ken Thompson on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Matt,

I agree with you. I was at the Humphrey ride also. I seen a guy with a 2000 Max go into the water on the obsticle course. When he came out I seen him looking in his machine. He was upset and complaining because he had muddy water in his machine. He thought that he lost a drain plug but further investigation found that the water came through the bearings. He asked a few people and they told him that to avoid this problem you must grease your bearings before you ride in the water. One guy said, "YOu won't get around that with any 6x6. All bearings leak water." I disagree with this theory. I follow routine maintenance on my Bigfoot and have over 200 hours of hard ride time. I had water in my machine 1 time and that was because I hit the water real fast and it splashed over the side. I have rode the Max machines and my buddy actually bought one and traded it in for a Bigfoot a year later. If I want to go fast I will buy a quad and save money. I would rather have quality in my 6x6. No one on this board can dispute that the Argo is a well built machine. Oh ya Roadwolf...I could get my Argo to go 40 to 50mph if I doctored up the engine but why would I do that??? If you lock one side of a Max at 50mph you will roll the machine and kill yourself.

Ken

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Right on John. Matt

By John Motson on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have a 2001 Max II 800T with about 100 hours on it. I might get a little water in mine (mostly from splashing) and I can soak it up with a rag after I'm done in the water. I regularly lube my bearings and chain. I have not had a problem yet with the vehicle. I would buy another in a heartbeat.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Matt435, You are aware, I think that Recreatives has made significant changes in the max vehicles starting in mid 1995. Since you own a 1993 max II (don't know what engine) you have not had the benefit of any of the improvements. To compare a 1993 Max II against a 2001 Bigfoot is unfair (at least you are comparing the right models - most want to use the Max IV). Put a current Bigfoot against a current Max II and most of your argument goes right out the window.

Ken Thompson said in an above post: "I have rode the Max machines and my buddy actually bought one and traded it in for a Bigfoot a year later." Tell us Ken, what is the real story? How many versions of this novel do you have?

By roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ken thompson, just because a aatv can go high mile an hour doesn't mean ya gotta drive wide open all tha time. i assume when you say "lock up ", ya mean the brake with yer lateral, do that with any skid steer then you can kiss yer butt goodbye! but with the Borg Warner T20 skid steer and any other "steering clutch systems", higher speed turns are merely accomplished by pullin' tha lateral into the neutral position.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

john motson, give it a few more months and you too will need a builge pump,
max vehicles are ok but the leaking wil ocure and become cronic in time,
far sooner than other vehicles.
fred i beleave 21"tires have a softer ride, there lighter and softer, when i put 22"tires on that same day i bent 4 axels, i beleave it's due to the hevyer and harder 22"tires,
also kens story dosent sound so hard too beleave,

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David, you and I just don't agree on much (maybe anything). John Motson, if your max does start to take on water at some point in time, check your bearing flange bolts and make sure they are uniformly tight at about 20 ft lbs. torque.

Now David, about the tires (my discussion is between the 21" goodyear rawhide and the 22" goodyear rawhide III). I must ask: What gives the tire its suspension factors? I think it is the sidewall - with the 22" tire, you have 1" more of sidewall. As long as the pressure is the same in each tire (both are the same 2 ply rating) the 22" tire will offer more suspension.

No, taking Ken's present story at face value, it could be true. The problem is he has told us several. Check out this: Ken Thompson for starters.

By Scott Philipps (Argosrus) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well i thought i might add this i talked to RI and they said thm selves that it will leaf if u r spinning the tires or not

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Is this the same "Ken Thompson" from Montana that is going to the Humphrey ride(s)? I bet he gets the award for driving the farthest to the ride. Glad to see people enjoy riding that much to go all across the country to a ride.

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, As I said in my post above, Max has been making some changes but they have a ways to go. It is the small things that add up. I do like my Max very much for hot roding around but why did it take them so long to put inner bearings in and splined axles? Why do they still have the throttle cable problem? The heated version does not fix the problem of them getting dirt inside them. I sold a set of tracks to a guy in FL. that says they have problems with the cable rotting in half? Like I said before. They are 90% there. I would like to see them fix the other 10%. Matt

By John Motson on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David Berger, So I guess that my 1998 Max II 450T that I sold to buy the 2001 800T should have had problems since it had 350+ hours on it? 4 out of the 12 bearings were replaced when I owned it. It didn't leak any more than my 2001. My boat takes on more water in a ride than my Max II.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Matt, I have never said the max was a perfect machine - just that it is better than any other on the market. Sure, we all have things we would like to see different (and I have suggested several to the factory; some have been incorporated into the current models and maybe more will be coming in future years).

Maybe some of those things took so long to evolve (like splined axles and inner bearings on the max II) because they really weren't needed until the new track came along. I know of lots of machines out there that work just fine without the inner bearing on the max II and without splined axles. RI is a small company and I think they do a good job in updating their product. Everything new takes time and costs money (when you change one thing, it often affects something else and RI is very good at trying to keep changes so they can be retrofitted to older vehicles (and very good at customer support).

I too, would like to see an improved throttle cable with seals or something and eventually we will get it, but in the meantime, they few things I don't like are certainly overpowered by the many things I do like.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hi fred, yah rawhide II and III'S both have 2 ply ratings but i have both and beleave me the III'S carcus is tougher!
presently i can air down to 2.5 psi in my II'S,
but only down to 3.5 psi in my III'S
but the much heaveyer III'S would still be harder at the 2.5 psi if i could run them that way,
now if i invested in k-rims i could try them with .5 psi,
i'd like to give them a chance at that preshure,
sidwall alone isent the only place we get suspention factor, P.S.I. in the tires is a BIG part of it!

as to ken the last post said he was there at humphrey with his argo and saw a guy with a max who had the water in his machine,???
yes it would be nice if ken took the time to fill out a form and join us folks here who have profiles and e-dresses, i'd like to e-him myself!
maybe he could post some pics of his machines, and of his budys machines and all his brouthers machines : )

and john motsons flanges may get worn out at the same time and have expanded to be too loose to hold berings with anything like a watertight seal,
new ones are cheep but you need to remove them, thats alot of trouble to go threw, and at that point you could tighten them up again with a hamer and block of wood, but only off the machine, not realy practicle, and so they leak cronicly,

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David, I would try to find some of the k-rims. These rims are awesome for keeping a tire on the bead with little or no air pressure, they would be worth the time spent remounting tires in the long run I believe. I run the III's from almost nothing to 3 lbs and have had pretty good luck and it gives a decent ride, only lost a bead once when I wedged in between two trees hard.

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

john, i dont have an hour meter, sorry,
mine was propeled by 38 hp or so,
easly did over 40 mph over an uneven serfice,
has hit 50 on realy long n smothe ones,
i have worn the engin out,
how many hours is that?

By Ken Thompson on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,

What does my above post have to do with my own Max horror story? Hey Dave I did go to Humphrey I will send you some photos if you would like. I don't have a profile because I am sending this from someone elses computer.

Kem

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ken tompson, shure id like them pics,
on the profile thingy: the good news is it dosent key to your pc or your friends pc, you get a pasword delivered to an e-mail address,
myself i started mine from work with the company computer, i did not have an e-mail address of my own so a guy at work showed me how to get a free one at yahoo.com and i had the pasword sent to it, in fact i have found that free yahoo e-mail address realy is the best thing i ever did!
i get all the posts each day sent to the e-mail address and i don't have to look for whats new on rt6x6 because it's delivered fresh daily to my mail!!
and thats not all! it helps me keep in toutch with all the people here who have abs body'd a.a.t.v's that need plastic body repair kits
and also people who would like videos from the humphrey or petes spring fling events i have attended and video'd,
also from time to time i have helped anser some peoples questions or they somtimes sent me pic's, ect...
all this and the e-dress is linked to the profile so folks can e-you by just clicking!
*NOW to continue the story, recently my company moved and in the new building i did not have acsess to the company pc.so i used a friends till i had my own, if i had somthing to post i just used my pasword and presto! posted and with the profile, from any pc,
posably even from your library,
so even if you dont have a pc or a internet acsess provider you CAN have your own e-mail address! and route 6x6 profile!
you wil enjoy it i promiss!
check out some of the links on this page, click on the red names and they will conect you too e-mail address or profile's with or without pictures , ect...
(some e-mail adreses are not working, you need to be realy cairfull to write them out just right for them to work)

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

john martin, yah if i had it to do over again i would get the
k rims, money's real tight and so i'll have to make do for now, thats why i have tubes in my rims and screws threw the rims to keep them from turning in the tires with the low psi that i like to run,
it's a good comprimise,
but one day i may win on a scratch ticket and get them k-rims !

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Ken, You don't appear to be a straight shooter. Tell us all where you really live. If you really bought a Max IV 900T, tell us when and from whom. If your brother really bought a Max II, tell us when and from whom. If you really had the problem with the Max IV you say you did,send copies of the paid receipts to David Berger and even though David and I disagree about lots of things, If he says you really did what you tell us you did, I will accept it. Same goes for all the problems you say your brother had with a Max II (I would really like to see the picture of the hole made in the body with a stick - a picture of the repair job would suffice). I know the Max machines and what you have tried to pass off as true is a bunch of bunk until you prove otherwise. IMO, the reason you don't have a profile is because you are a figment of someone's imagination. Just in case you don't know it, you can sign up for a yahoo mail account that can be read from any computer and is available only to you (you don't need your own computer to have an email account or to fill out a profile in the owners registry). To put this all in a nutshell, I believe in telling the truth, in telling the facts as they are; and I just don't think you do.

By Steve Laxil on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Ken,

I don't buy your story either you need to set up a profile. I think you may be someone who is repeating other peoples post and probably don't even have a 6x6..lets see some proof or please stay off the discussion board.

Fred,

I understand your furstration with Ken and his Max post's. Even when someone has a legit post you still go after them with both barrels cocked? I am sure there are problems with Max AATV's that you have not had on your machines. That does not mean that they are full of b/s. Just like the above listed post about the T-20. Because I do not agree with what you are saying you automatically say, "Do you really have a T-20?" After reading your post I showed an engineering friend of mine a broke down view of the T-20. He also agrees that it is impossible to turn without losing power. The point is that you do not have to personally attack someone to promote your Max's. Everyone has their opinion about every brand of 6x6.

Steve

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

HEY STEVE AND "ENGINEER FRIEND":

about the T-20 feature you should check exposed view again....t-20 funtion as a two independent "reverse gear" activated by locking one side of satellite gear (each one linked to a INDEPENDENT drum ( TWO DRUM- BRAKE BAND PER SIDE)
when you release the "clutch band" lightly ( before "brake band" start to apply)....that feature is obtained ONLY if band adjustment-plungers- are adjusted on specification...)as a matter of fact release BOTH drums so the energy that came from engine get thru first drum, make and oposite rotation -via satelite action- and "lost" on the seccond drum....when this seccond drum is on "drive" position the only variation is that is secured-via seccond band-to the t-20 housing......when you change selection from "forward to reverse" you only change drum's energy pattern ( first drum convert into seccond drum and viceversa).......but to really understand this concept just LIFT your t-20 aatv ( 6 wheels on air)...start the engine, put tranny selector on forward, move LEFT stick a little bit and take someone to spin LEFT tires even in REVERSE!!!......
hope that this explanation will help....

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

It's always the same old thing with Sowerwine, he ALWAYS resorts to personal attacks. He is just not capable rational unemotional exchange of ideas. Its all about trashing any machine he doesn't sell or anyone who dares to disagree with him. He is the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY, just ask him.

P.J.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

OK Steve, I'll concede. I know I like a good verbal jousting and when someone gives me a chance, I take it. I also know that I get baited (a lot). I certainly don't know everything, but I am an inquisitive person and a problem solver. With my own experience and my many customers experiences, I have seem a lot and pretty much know what is a real problem and what is a made up problem. I know what the machines are capable of and I know if it is operator error or machine weakness, maybe both. I've also been around along enough to never say "never", so when there is a possibility, I try to goad out proof. I realize people think they have anonymity on the computer and who cares what is said - well, I have never hidden anything from anybody on purpose and I make lots of mistakes, but they are just that "mistakes". I like a good story just like the rest of the world, but I like people to own up to the fact that it is a story.

On the T-20, I think we are talking semantics. I agree that a T-20 will lose momentum because the operator has taken the power away from the wheels, but I do not think the power has been lost: especially not lost in the sense of having the brake on the same time you apply the gas.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

fred,
Are you going to the deepwater ride in april? I think a non-computer conversation with you would be a little more productive. I can appreciate the way you back your product, and max has made some good improvements. I agree with my riding partner matt435, that they have 10% to go. I will always have a bigfoot and an argo eight wheeler but someday I may have a max also, that is the answer as said before on this subject. I have seen the best and worst of both argo and max and I wish they would both work on the outragous price of these machines so people would take a second look at buying one, and ending the reign of the king quad. brandons photo pages show just how pathetic a quad is compared to a aatv.
In closing this discussion has gone completely rediculous, with me being part of it, so I will no longer post on this subject. I ride with alot of max guys in humphrey, also people from the factory, such as joe and john, and this b/s isn't even thought about when we ride, just having a good time tearing up some terrain. that is what this is all about in my book. cheers.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

By Jeff Kemp on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Argogeru

Well said can't wait to ride with you and Matt.

Kemp

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

way to go Jon. Matt

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

"I have never said the max was a perfect machine - just that it is better than any other on the market."

Hehe:) That was good for a chuckle

About the Argo's handling.. applying a brake does more than slow one set of wheels/axles/chains. The revolutions lost on the braking side are transfered through a planetary differential to the other side. This effectively ups the gear ratio for the driven side. If you lock one side when stopped, and spin around, the gear ratio for the turning side is double what straight line operation is. Just explaining what some of the turning effort is...

I'm a happy Response owner by the way.

Be careful what you say in here, you may meet one another in real life (as a lot of you have)

I'm in Tulsa, and will likely show up at Deepwater this Spring.

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Roger I live in Catoosa. Do you want to get together and go for a ride around Pryor sometime soon? E-mail me if your interested. johnmalgeria@yahoo.com

By roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

roger,..... met each other in real life? THAT IS WHY WE HIDE BEHIND OUR SCREEN NAMES. can you imagine if attex bob and argogeru ever met up with tha roadwolf in real life? they'd both kill the sum-a- bitch. it is kinda like "Commander Bush" said, dead or alive!

By davidrrrd on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well i for one do look forward to meating people in real life, thats why i'd like people to were name tags at humphrey, and include ther toute 6x6 discussion board screen names as well when that aplys,
so we can hook up and talk and or compair rides, ect.ect. while we are still there insted of asking laiter "where were you?" or
"we looked for you" ect.ect.
that alwase seems to follow after the event,
name tags laidy's and gentelmen,
we need to where them,

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David,
I agree. I would much rather talk to people in person and ride with them rather than talk on this board. not to say I do not enjoy this board. We need to get fred to go to humphrey, I know we would all have a heck of a ride without all the b/s.
Roadwolf: reguardless of our differences, I enjoy riding with everyone and I do not hide behind my screen name, i also want people to know who I am and to know who others are. that is how I have ment some of my good friends through these machines. what do you say fred, road trip to humphrey?
Jon Hoath the argogeru of michigan.

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Wolf..... you can't be all that bad; you like big horse power like I do!!!! Putting all BS aside, I would love to go riding with any one of you; even if you don't own an Attex (ha ha ha)but that will never happen. You see, I live in shaky country, and I did not win that 180 million lotto last week:-( I am very jealous at the country you people ride in!!!! Have any of you been to Brandon's web site? What a beautiful country we all live in!!!! Let me explain why I am so outspoken at times. You see, I really don't like seeing people getting ripped off. Most people on this board don't have allot of money, and some are disabled. If I had a bad experience with a product; or know something about it, I want to tell everybody so they don't get burned also,like poor Dave did with his 6000. If someone wants to buy a brand X 6X6 that I don't like, so be it. But at least they know what Attex Bob, Fred, Argogeru, Roadwolf or 40 other people think about it. I also want to say to Dave that they might have gotten over on you, but thanks to you, I don't think anybody that reads this board will ever buy one of their boat anchors, and that cost them dearly. I'm still pissed at what they did to you.

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Come on Fred, come to the humphry spring mud run with us. I have a 1978 max that will knock your socks off. The fastest in the land!!! Or come to the deep water ride the week before. Jon and I will be at both. Hope to see you there. Matt

P.S. Weres brandon gone too???

By northerner on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hi there couple of question for you argo owners out there, Is there any way to repair a body on argo? And i have a older 18 h koler engine on a 91 magnum and it has not recoil for back up, any sugggestions as would like back uf battery fails. And when i turn the chain cluks a little on the side im breaking is tha tnorma as being a new owner nnot famailir with them all. and what the better machine the six or eight wheerl . thanks for the advice :-)

By Kevin Vallelunga (Kevinv123) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Northerner
The chain clunk is the drive chain tension from the transmission to the first lower shaft. Tighten it to factory spec's and it will stop clunking. Your drive pulley may have a slot for a stater rope, and keep digging through this website in the how to section and the discussiuon board for plastic repair info.

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Matt435,

Brandon has abandoned us for the quad crowd. He now owns a Polaris 500 ho sportsman and says he loves it. Kinda funny if you ask me the way he used to spout off about quads being horrible then he goes and buys one!

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

northerner,
Make sure all the springs on your axle chain ajusters are tight and in good repair, you might half to replace them if they are to stretched out. The chain itself may also be stetched out to and it might need replaced. I buy all my chain from shoup manufacturing out of kankakee ill.
phone 1-800-627-6137 web- www.shoupparts.com
Do not buy the forgien chain as it will stretch very quickly. Buy the AMERICAN chain, it is more but will last 10 times longer. and kevin is right about the main drive chains, make sure they are tightened to specs or the cost of new sprokets and brake disks with the sprokets on them will set you back in the hundreds of dollars. If you do not have a service manual you definitly need to get one.
You will know if the chain is stretched if the chain ajusters are pulling the chain close together on the drive line. this will wear sprokets quickly and also will be a costly repair.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

pete6x6 n matt, i was thinking brandon had began daiting,:-)

By roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

argogeru, point well taken, for what it was worth our shootout waz fun, and i guess our six-shooters had indeed only rubber bullets.
hey attex bob, you made some progress with tha roadwolf as i'm now up ta 30 to 1 premix, hee hee. yes, i hope to see you, fred, argogeru, matt435 at the humphrey jamboree this 2002! we'll all have a blast!

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Maybe Brandon did discover girls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. If he did... can you blame him???

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Guys,

Yea maybe he did :) Maybe that counter girl at Kmart where he works! Maybe she goes for long romantic rides with him Hahaha! My motherinlaw lives in Joplin Missouri so one of these days I'll find him and show him what an Attex two stroke machine can do. :)

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

women are evil brandon, procede with caution.

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I still read the board daily but a few things have changed. Some said I have finally seen the light. Maybe they are right, or maybe not. I now ride a Scrambler 500 4x4 but still own the Max. For more reasons than I will discus I have decided to join the 4x4 crowd. What can I say... I love it.

I will probably bring both ATVs to the Deepwater ride as well as to all the other rides this year. Now I'll have a back up vehicle and can enjoy both types of riding.

I have yet to discover this girl thing you guys are talking about. With my Max, Scrambler, and Sea-Doo, I don't think I have time to ride anything else.

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

But Brandon the girl's are much more fun than all those toys put togeather!!!

By Sam on Unrecorded Date: Edit

But a sixer does not break-down once per month for maintenance.....or does it?

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

HEY SAM:

what are talking about?? break down on monthly basis...????.as any skilled max or argo operator allready knew: with the "right" tool and knowledge you should be ready to "fit it" or find the alternative way to return safely from noman's land he he!!!!!....so brandon should need to have:

the right tool

the skill to use it!!!!

after all the max ii allready have enough "leg room"!!!!!!and confortable BENCH seat too!!!

bounce!!!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

isaac,
what are you geting at??
am i mistaken or are thoughs sexual inuendows, ?
hey it can be done in a maxII,
and i know this for a certinty, heh heh heh,
expeshely one with a roll bar, heh heh heh

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Leave it up to dave :) Whatever brandon....

By CJ on Unrecorded Date: Edit

But I thought the MAX was a unbreakable machine...or so Mr. Price claimed for the last year. We all see the truth has now come out. Funny!!! I don't need a back up machine when I ride my Argo.

CJ

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

No ATV is unbreakable when I am driving it. They may last forever with someone like you behind the sticks but I ride hard. I've got the money for the parts and the skill to fix it.

By Russell Lee (Bigkodiak) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

But lack the ability to not succumb to peer presure to buy a quad.

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon,

If you cant handle it go on the quad message board. "The skill to fix it" What you think noone on here knows how to turn a wrench but you? Your arrogance quite frankly annoys me.

By Randy Laib on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Another BIG FOOT!!!

Well I just put money down on a new machine. After almost a year of research including this board i decided on a Argo Big Foot wetlands camo. As an avid duck hunter this thing is beautiful. I can't wait to crank it up. That new camo color is awesome. Some one said earlier in a post that Argo is built heavier than a Max. Well if you do your research you will find that it is, from top to bottom. I almost bought the Max II twice, the T-20 seem hard to beat, however Argo boasts extra room, storage under seat, boat type drain plugs heavier chains, double sealed bearings, standard skid plate, standard hour meter, self adjusting chain adjusters, receiver hitch, winch plate mounted to the steel frame,(versus to plastic on the Max) Low gear, standard 25" Rawhide III tires, standard 18HP and overall tough look steered me towards the Argo. I confess I will have to live without the T-20 but Argoguru seems to be doing just fine. I hunt and run the woods here in northern Minnesota and for me this will be the best fit. If you are looking for a machine I recommend comparing each thoroughly as I did, since they are indeed two very different quality built machines. The Max is a great machine and if I were sport riding exclusivly the Max Rocks! That would have been my choice bar none. But the cold hard facts is that Big Foot is hard to beat for the sportsman. OH- yeah its also weighs 910 pounds, VS 775 pounds on the Max IV and 670 pounds on MaxII. Thanks for the imput David, Argoguru and others. Would like to ride with you guys some day. Is there any events (rides)out this way or do I need to start one and invite all you amphibious 6x6er's to Minnesota? Or should I come to your mud meyhems?

Randy from Minn.

By Tim Mueller on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Way to go Randy! I sold my Yamaha Big Bear and bought my Bigfoot new in August 1998 and have never regretted it. I use my Argo almost exclusively for working my farm/woodlot. Like you, I took about a year and really did some serious comparing and the Bigfoot kept coming out the winner for what I needed to do. I came real close to buying a Max IV but I needed a way to mount a mower in front and a low gear for heavy pulling. I've built a 25-gallon boom sprayer that covers a 12' swath, a 14 hp 62" mower that mounts on the front axle bearing extensions, and have pulled a 10' harrow and a 2400-pound roller. I also use it to winch logs out of the creek that wash in every year. I only get to play when I take it elk hunting or up in the snow. (I take that back, I take my son fishing in it every chance I get!)
Enjoy your Bigfoot!
Tim.

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well put Randy. Matt

By RickMoMoBigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Randy,your not alone.I love my 2001 bigfoot with under 30 hours on it, i got last june.Me and my buddy Mark went on great rides with others on this site.Deepwater and Badlands.I've taken him with me most all my rides.I'm new with aatv's and don't want to have trouble in the bush alone.I found out friday that he's going to get a bigfoot now in about a week.We are going to take both to deepwater ride in april.That place is great, you should try to make that ride,you'll really love that place it seems it was made for 6x6s.Hope to meet ya there.And we look forward to seeing everyone else.Later

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Randy,
You made a good choice for what you needed. You ought to come to deepwater in april, Midwest atv puts on a great ride everytime they have one and a bunch of us will be their. We all have a great time. You will get to see a couple sets of matts tracks in action to. hope to see you their.
Jon Hoath argogeru

By ronw on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Congrats on the Bigfoot Randy. I too did lotsa back and forth between the max and Argo. Went with the Argo Bigfoot and no regrets. I added the small ATV cargo rack that slides into the hitch reciever - just perfect for lugging a deer outa the woods. Good luck with your new toy. Ron W.

By dakota972 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well after alot of reseach I bought an Argo Bigfoot. The funny is that nobody ever mentioned the extra driving range the Argo has because of the larger fuel tank . This I feel is very important in remote areas ,such as the Seirra Nevade mountain range.Which is also extremly steep , low range allows much slower speeds for easier climbing and desending the steep rocky mountain of the west .

By Don Myre (Myred) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey all,
As a father of 4 kids(well,three and a 19 year old)I wanted to get something we could enjoy together.The first aatv i ever saw was about 30 years ago. I knew I had to have one. I was only 10. I owned motorcycles and atv's including a Polaris stortsman 500(wich I loved), but always the same same problem. I could not take the whole family out riding. I decided to buy an aatv. It was going to be either an old used one, a Max or an Argo. Since I am 40 now I said screw it and narrowed my search to the Max or Argo. The Argo won.
I am now the proud owner of a 2002 Argo Bigfoot. I got it a couple of days ago and it now has a whopping 3 hours on it. I am very pleased with my decision. I still need to set myself up with a hitch and trailer to tow it around, but we are looking very forward to joing some of these events I have been reading about.

Don

By ALVIN LUPRYPA on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi. I am Alvin, and live in Canada. I find your discussion board very interesting and sometimes childish. Any 6 or 8 wheeler is better than not having one. I own a conquest and use it mostly for hunting. Lots of you guys are complaining about water leaking in through the bearings. You have the best grease product in the world made right in the USA. It is called Amsoil. They make a pure synthetic grease which resists water from washing it out. It is a fantastic product so give it a try. Also, if you want to come for a ride,I HAVE A SPOT IN MANITOBA THAT IS ABOUT 2 MILES LONG AND I DONT THINK THERE IS A MACHINE MADE THAT CAN CROSS IT WITHOUT GETTING STUCK AT LEAST 20 TIMES.

By kyle charles on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Argo rules the max blow chunks. maxes are just a rolling toolbox. There so ugly it makes my grandma look hot. argos are the power house, and they don't sound like a chain saw like some of the 2 cycles that are out there.

By mr. tinker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

MAX...........MADE IN THE U.S.A.

argo...........take off hosehead

By bigkodiak on Unrecorded Date: Edit

kyle and Mr. Tinker
Stop the BS and whining. I don't care what you ride, drive, want or own. If you want to ride with me stop being a bunch of INFANTILE, my machine is better than yours, JERKS.
I don't care if you own a Starcraft from the 70's or a 2003 Triton, If you have a 6 or 8 wheeler you're ok with me.
Brands don't matter, only what YOU like!!!
By the way Kyle..those 2 strokes you loath so much are available in all older machines Argo and Max alike.
Russ

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

kyle there are 2-cycle argos you know,
and they are the only good ones,

By TexMaxx on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i was considering a skid plate ass an accessorie on a max IV, does any one have any input on this.

By Red Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tex, Me again....You really need a skid plate if you travel thru areas where large sharp rocks could gouge a hole in the floor. I have one on my Argo and you should see how well it has protected the bottom. I got into some boulders in the mountains near the Ohio river and some of the huge rocks had jagged sharp edges. The skid plate took the punishment! Red Wolf

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

TEX MAX,
YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND ANY MONEY ON THE SKID PLATE, IT'S OK IF THE DEALER THROUGHS IT IN FOR FREE BUT EVEN THOUGH YOU REALY NEED ONE THE FACTORE'S SKID PLATE ONLY LOOKS LIKE A SKID PLATE IT'S NOT WORTH MUCH AS IT'S ONLY A SHORT PIECE OF PLASTICE AND DOSE NOTHING TO PROTECT THE WHOLE UNDERSIDE ,JUST BUMPS ON LEADING EDGE AND THATS NOT WORTH THE $$$
WE ALL WISH THEY WOULD BUILD HONEST FULL LENTH SKID PLATES LIKE ARGO DOSE.

By David Sanders Mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

(David Berger ) Yes,this is true,,but,,then we would all have to buy Argo,s. and then Fred would not be happy ,,,ha-ha

By Dave Johnston on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hate to say it,,,but whatever machine you buy,,,you have to keep it running... If you do not have a dealer for your machine in the area,,,kind of hard to keep it running. I have an Argo and the dealer is 30 miles away...easy to get parts,,,advice on how to fix things...and just to shoot the breeze... If I had a Max,...I would really be out of luck trying to get parts. So before you buy...find out what DEALERS you have in the area. No dealer means machine out of commission more often.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hold on there dave j, recreativs dosent make you go threw a dealer to get parts,
parts are easy to get factory direct and it is probly the one erea where they truly excel!
just give them a call before lunch or after and ask for the parts department,99.9% of the time they will know exactly what part you need even if you don't know the exact terminolagy
they have it prity much down and if you know the modle year or have a sireal number so much the better! they ship right away and few if any who have ever bought anything over the phone from the factorey would clame a reason to complain,
hell they even show up with parts at rideing events to help out folks who need parts to continue havin fun at the event,
ODG don't!
ooh if only they had there web site set up to do online purchuses! now that would be the only way to inprove there parts service,
(jay are yah lisinin)

By Eric on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have to jump in to agree with David. Recreatives are great people to deal with to get parts. They are quick and knowledgeable. I've owned new machines of each make and speak from experience of dealing with both brands.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I certainly have to second what dave berger posted above. Would only add that I don't know of any company that does a better job in "customer satisfaction" if the problem is machine related.

Maybe it is important to have a dealer close if you own an Argo, but if you own a Max, all you need is a telephone (or maybe in time a computer).

By Dave Johnston on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Great...you can order parts directly...if you are a mechanic...or an engineer...or halfway decent at taking things apart and then putting them back together again,,,then mail order parts is fine....I on the other hand am NOT such a person... If there is a problem with the Argo..>I can call and if I still can not get it figured out...I can either take the Argo to the dealer or as happened on occasion,,,,we meet and he fixes it on site. Also,,,HYPOTHETICALLY, I doubt a 1-800 number will help much when you break down 22 miles from town,,,in a ravine that no Jeep could handle. I know I can call my dealer and get some help...if not directly from him,,,from another Argo owner in the area... Like I said,,,,having a LOCAL dealer is a help.. be it a MAX dealer OR an Argo dealer...

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey dave jhonson,i guess there may have bin an enginear somwere down threw my bloadline, i guess i have just taken it for granted that a ten year old could figure it all out in about an hour.
dident stop to think there was somthing percuilyer about every time i go to humphrey people point at me and tell stories about how they saw me replace a bearing on the trail or an axle or somthing all this while eating my lunch ,
(i perfer M.R.E.'s heated in my engine cooling duct)

By Someone on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dave Johnston--You are going to have an expensive life ahead of you. If you can't fix what you break then you are going to pay out the ass for someone else to do it for you. Break out the books and help yourself. Goodluck with whatever you have!

By roadwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey david, about a year ago you were cookin' me up a turkey c-rat on your max/foreman grill. i never got it. sure must be well done by now!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

yah i found it when i was chainging my engine,
the old woman made me throw it away, heh heh heh

By David Sanders Mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I spoke with an engineer named Matt from Recreatives today on the phone,,and he told me that they are coming out with a either a 27 hp Kolier,,27 hp water cooled Kawasaki,,or 27 hp Briggs in a Max 1V in proably the spring of 2004.
At the present time though,,they are trying to see which motor performs better.

It will also have adjustable front seats ,,but,,not suspended seats. Also, sealed bearings on each wheel.

By AATVjocke on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Fella's & Ladies of course!

I'm an AATV rookie and after reviewing all the posts on this thread I've made a decision based on the following criteria for the MAX & ARGO machines.

1. Looks = ARGO
2. Reliability = ARGO
3. All-Around-Fun = Toss Up
4. Versatility = ARGO
5. Speed = MAX
6. Maneuverability = MAX
7. Fishing = ARGO
8. Hunting = ARGO
9. Comfort = ARGO
10. # of passengers = ARGO
11. Cargo Space = Argo 8x8
12. Accessories = ARGO

All in all.., the ARGO Conquest is my choice. Please bear in mind that I'm a non-owner operator of the above vehicles but I am very interested in purchasing one as a outdoor sportsman. I have no experience nor do I have a technical knowledge of any motor vehicle much less an AATV. As Sgt. Shultz put it..., "I know nothing!" except what I have read on this board and manufacturer's specs. So.., MAX owners.., time to go to bat. SHOW ME THE MONEY!

All input would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you all for a very informative forum!

Rob
PS..,I would sincerely appreciate advice on the steps taken before purchasing an AATV. ;-)

By jdhoath argoguru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Rob,
You will make the right choice in the conquest when you buy one. This is the ultimate machine for the hunter/fisherman. I just ordered a new conquest yesterday and can hardly wait to pick it up.

By David Sanders Mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( AATVjocke ) I recently had the opportunity to check out a new camo Conquest,,and man did it look good!! Camo body,,camo floor boards,,and camo seat. I think you are making a good choice in the Conquest. It is a very good Amphib for the sportman I think.

By John Hamilton on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Did you get the 6X6 or 8X8?Your right,it is the ultimate machine for the hunter fisherman...unless you got the $$$ for a Triton Predator or the CENTAUR.Good choice either way you went.A Buffalo truck with a big fishing chair mounted in the back would do quite well...LOL!!!!Maybe I'll check back into the ARGO brand now that I have an interest again in them.

By Bryan Perry on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Rob,

You can't go wrong with either of the Argo 8x8's. I recently purchased a camo Response and love it. Remember, the conquest doesn't have a pull start which may come in very handy 10 miles from BFE. Also consider getting a winch. Although they look like they will go anywhere, they can get stuck.

I can't wait for duck season to use this Machine!
Bryan

By David Sanders Mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( John Hamilton ) To be quite honest,, after reading this forum for almost a year,,and seeing all of the many pros and cons about Argo vs the Max,and, also looking at all of the webstites I could find about Argos and Max,s,,I finally decided to buy a new Max IV with a 25 hp motor and the optional 26 inch tires.

The reason being,,the Argo does not have a "true 6-wheel" drive,,but, only a limited slip transmission.

Also, after watching several videos, of both the Argo and Max in action, in the mud, I can now see that the Max will go through very muddy and slippery terrain, much easier than the "heavier" Argo will,,that has a "limited slip transmission.

The Argo "will make it" through places the Max will,,"if" you have capable driver at the sticks
but,,he has to exert a lot more effort with the sticks to do it.

The Argo driver will have to work the sticks,to drag the brakes on the side that is not getting traction,,but,, the Max driver will not.

In build quality,,I have seen first hand, that the Argo is the better built amphib. It is built a lot better, and, a lot more durable as well. To me, it is also a lot more pleasing to the eye.

I feel that it will last longer and with much less maintenance than the Max will.

But,,on the flip side of the coin,,I can now see, that my new Max IV will be "much" easier to modify and do scheduled maintenance on.

I live in Louisiana where there are lots of swamps,,bayous,creeks,rivers,lakes,and low lands. I plan to only use my amphib for recreational riding and not hunting. For this I have concluded,,,for me,,the Max is the better choice.

I do not need the extra cargo space that the Argo has,,since I do not plan to hunt with my Max IV. But,,for the sportsman,,,,I feel that the 8-wheel conquest is your best choice. The downside is the smaller tires that are fitted to the conquest,which will lead to getting high centered on the belly pan more often. But,,this is what winches are for !

By fred on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Guy,s I have seen a lot of reference to price on 6x6,s being too high. Argo is dropping the price on the Vanguard 6x6 to $5995.00 + $250 for shipping and set up. I think they are going to run that price thru March.

By AATVjocke on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks for the tips, all. I'm gonna be doing some serious research & price shopping over the next couple months. Used and/or new.

Here's a question or two for ya.

I'd like you use my future AATV for Redfish & Speckled Trout fishing here in Florida. However, I'm a little concerned about the affects of Salt Water. Is there anything I should know regarding this.., other than rinsing her off good at a car wash ASAP after fishing?

Also, are there problems with the Park Services and/or any Government Agency concerning the use of the vehicles on public lands. I've never seen 6X6's or 8X8's when fishing or hunting.

Thanks again everyone. Good points Bryan.

Regards,
Rob

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( Fred )
That is good ,if you want a heavy Amphib,that is already under powered for the chassis it is in,along with the smaller tires,,,that will get you stuck more easily.

For me,,if I ever buy an Argo, it would have to be a Big Foot,,with the biggest motor I could get in it.

When Recreatives finally comes out, with the new 27 hp Max IV, that they have as a "proto- type" now,, it should be really potent!

By dakota on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well I suggest getting it regestered as a boat , and carrying the safty equipment a boat of it's size must carry . that will keep you good in the water as far as on land goes if florida uses atv permits , you might want to get one of those too just to keep your ass covered. Park rangers are pricks and enjoy harrasing people, Just keep yourself legel to prevent a ticket, trust me they are pricy.

By AATVjocke on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks dakota. I'll keep you all updated on Florida info...

By jacques lacour on Unrecorded Date: Edit

new to the argo market,can someone give me some input on why i see so many argo conquests for sale with very low hours.what about the transmission. any breakdowns reported. can we put taller tires,wider tires ?? i would appreciate any comments. thanks

By Argo Kills on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The reason you probably see so many conquests for sale is not because of the quality of the machine, but probaly the person who bought it. Many people buy these machines thinking they are
getting a quad, and are dissapointed. I say this because the public's idea of an ATV is something
to go fast on and perform crazy stunts. This not something you can do with 6x6 ATVs(excpet ones built in the 70's). They were built for people who take ATV riding serious, and are more mature than most people who buy quads. As far as the transmission goes, Argo transmissions are rock solid, and will last for years. Breakdowns happen with any machine, and yes Argos break down, but that is due to the person not keeping them maintained. Remember, these are different beasts than quads, and do require some routine maintainence, but its basicly keeping the chains greesed and adjusted, and a few other small tid bits. Its nothing you couldn't do at home. Now for the tires. The tires on an 8x8 or 6x6 are special tires. What they do is soak up bumps to make up for no shocks. I would recomend using tires from the company, since they are for a special purpose (movement in water, and shock absorbtion). Also, they are low pressure, which means they flaten a little bit when going over obsticles like logs. What this does is grip a wide area as slow speed, whereas on a quad, the tires are rock hard, because the quad relies on speed to get over. The factory offers different tires sizes from 22 inch to 25 inch. Max 6x6's have sizes up to 26 inch. If you need any other questions answered, feel free to post some more. I am always looking for new posts.

By Argo Kills on Unrecorded Date: Edit

From what I have read on all these posts, One think comes to my mind. The 6x6 will rise again. I know it seems hopless, looking at how well the quads sell, and how many sell, but I think the 6x6 will have its day. From reading these posts, it seems that both Max and Argo are very strong, and doing very well. I got an email from Argo the other day promotting special deals on the Bigfoot, and I realized that they are doing better than ever, now all they need is an agressive ad campaign. That goes for Max and Argo. If they could reach more people, than the 6x6 would become an industry again.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

How about some lower prices to get a few more people to move in. Make them affordable for the general public. Maybe we 6x6, 8x8 amphibs are a special breed. We have skill that they lack? (Its a long shot I know!)

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Max vs. ARGO-- its a never ending battle. Lets put a twist on this debate. What machine is better in the snow?? What are the ARGO advantages in the snow, what are max. What are their disadvantages over each other. How are quads in any snow?

By Chris M. (Argomaster9000) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David,

Quads in the snow are fun on packed snow. I got a chance to try it last year (or was it two years ago?) with my cousin's quad and it was fun doing spin-outs and donuts, etc. But when stopped to really think about it, it was really limited. I went to the Burke's Falls area where snow was waste-high (offroad) and packed (on road). Riding was limited to the road pretty much, which is where drove our truck anyway. So quads are fun, but not really practical in the snow.

As for our Argo, we still truly have to try it. As mentioned earlier, we have the tracks for it. My dad used it in the early November snowfall in Toronto and said that it was amazing but would be even better in deep snow, which is where it will be tested this holiday season. Looking forward to it!

Sorry, can't comment on the Max. Does RI make tracks for Max as well?? Can someone comment on this?

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sorry David Kesso, it is the same old debate - same old physics. PSI on the ground and balance gives the advantage to Max (tires or tracks). The tracked Max II (18 Hp and up) is the best snow machine (lowest PSI on the ground of any skid steer, fastest land speed, and least likely to be overloaded). Max IV (18 hp and up) is next best with the 900T the best performing max IV. Any tracked machine (actually,any machine) will have less flotation the more it weighs and carries so, the lighter the load, the better the performance. The reason balance is important is that stated PSI on the ground means nothing unless it is a uniform PSI on the ground. Machines with all their weight in front have a tough time getting on top of the light fluffy snow. The kind of track also makes a big difference in flotation - the Max's solid rubber belt allows the entire surface to be contact area whereas any linked track has spaces where there is nothing and that area should be subracted from the total area when determining contact area (because if there is nothing, there can be no support). For the quads, it is the same as an automobile - if there is enough weight to reach a traction surface (Higher PSI on the ground is an advantage here) and enough clearance to pass through the snow, they will go fine. Skid steer ATVs with tires are very dependent on snow conditions and require enough consistency in the snow to support the machine. The wide bottom of the machine allows it to become high centered easily (tires or tracks) if the driver does not pay attention to what he is doing (too much throttle causes wheel spin and wheel spin without momentum is a recipe for getting stuck).

Now, There are very few argos (maybe three) in my country and I have never had the opportunity to go head to head (when the local quad dealer was trying to sell argos, he would not even let me test drive one of his machines and flat refused to have a competition). Oh yeah, and the old style track that Max used to use was not effective in our cold smoke powder. The high flotation model was effective in certain snow conditions, but only the new Max track (solid belt) allows the Max to be an effctive deep snow machine in snow that has very low water content.

By rgo8X8 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,

I have had Argo Supertracks on an Argo 6X6 and the floation on that machine was near incredible. The Supertracks are 3" wider than the RI tracks for the max and that extra width has to add to the floatation of the machine. The problem with the supertracks was that they took a LOT of power to turn.

I think that your comments in regards to segmented or linked tracks are not entirely accurate. Once installed, the tracks are quite tight and there is very little if any sag around the tires. I speak from experience in this.

I have traded machines and this year I am excited to try out my Argo Response 8 wheeler with a new set of TruTrax! The TruTrax are pretty narrow (12.5") but I am hoping that the extra length of the 8X8 will give me the floation that I need. I just finished mounting all of the ice cleats on the tracks tonght and there is supposed to be a storm front moving through Idaho next week so I might have a chance to test them out.

Can anyone out there comment on Max vs Argo with tracks in the snow and real life comparisons??

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming

By Timothy Schotanus (Mudbuster) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have a MAX-IV and the factory track.I have used the tracks very little and have no real experience in the snow with them. I would be very interested in riding with someone who has tracks also.I do not get into the max-argo bashing at all, I just want to ride and see how the machines handle the snow. Here in Ma we only have about 3 inches of snow right now.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

rgo8X8, For your sake, I hope I am wrong; but if your snow is dry and fluffy like ours is, my guess is you will not be happy with the 12.5 inch wide track on your 8x8. I think they will take almost as much power to turn as did the Argo super track and you will be loosing about 1/3 of your contact area. To top it off, your 8x8 has to weigh more than your 6x6 did. The argo 6x6 with the super track should have adequate flotation, the Argo 8x8 with super tracks will have marginal flotation in dry powder and any thing with a 12.5 inch track will be inadequate (that isn't to say it won't go in some conditions, but it will have limitations enough to make it unacceptable to many). This is of course only my opinion.

Just because I have not personally been able to go head to head with an argo does not mean I have no experience. I sold a max to a fellow in 1995 who decided he needed to use it in the winter in deep snow. At that time the only track available for the max was the old style and I knew from my own experience with the track that it would not make my guy happy so I declined to sell him tracks. He bought and argo 8x8 with super tracks form the local ATV dealer and he was not a happy camper. He told me that the max with tires was almost as good as the argo with tracks. He got rid of the Argo pretty quick. A couple of years latter when he got into financial trouble, I found a buyer for his Max.

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Fred, all the weight to square inch ciferin' is logical, but have you considered where the Max saved on weight? Frame and Body? Thinner/less steel and plastic/poly doesn't sound like a good selling point outside of the snow question.

I had a Response in the high country snow with 18" tracks, it did ok. Yes it was relativly nose heavy, unloaded. After I loaded the back compartment with cargo your machine couldn't fit, it was balanced.

By rgo8X8 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, Snow varies wildly here. Sometimes wet and sticky, sometimes dry powder. Mostly the dry stuff here in Idaho, similar to Montana. It is a bit warmer here.

I ran some theortical ground pressure numbers just for fun. I got the AATV wheelbase from Max and Argo's websites and then added 6" for a bit of sink in the snow (there is ground contact past the wheelbase) and then I just divided the weight of the AATV by the surface area of the track.

Here are the results:
Argo Response with TruTrax = 0.98 PSI
Max IV with TruTrax = 0.97 PSI
Argo Response with Argo Supertracks = 0.68 PSI
Max IV with Argo Supertracks = 0.67 PSI
Max IV with RI tracks = 0.81 PSI

Argo Supertracks on a Max IV (GASP!!) Of course, this can't be done, so these are all theoretical calculations, but it is fun to do on paper.

So the winner of the purely empirical ground pressure carried on tracks in snow contest is the Argo Response with Supertracks. This is by virtue of it's relatively monsterous 72.25" wheelbase, coupled with the 18" width of the supertracks vs the RI track width of 15".

It is interesting that in theory the Argo Response and the Max IV run very similar ground pressures with the same track system. The Max does good by virtue of it's light weight while the Argo benefits from it's extended length.

I would still like to hear stories of track comparisons in real snow with real machines!

I will let you all know how the TruTrax/Argo Response combination works out. We are expecting some snow this week.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Okay, I am going to throw another twist to the old argo vs craps (sorry, max) (I know I'll be hated for that one!)

What machine can be more customized and has better options. Now which machine is better when all the options are on it??

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( David Keeso )
I can see where you,re headed with this post,so I will also throw a little "twist" of my own, to this "Never-Ending" Argo vs Max debate!

Since the Argo starts off with a "Power to Weight"
disadvantage compared to the lighter Max,,,and high centers more easily,,which one do you now think will sink even faster,,,the one with more accessories,,,or the one with less?

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

One word- Versitility

Seriously though, who offers better options. Your power to weight crap isn't going to fly with me. More options means better capabilities. I think I have high centered my ARGO 5 times. Thats it! All times, loaded down and resulting because of the approach of going over something.

When will this debate ever end?? NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( David Keeso )

This debate "might" end,,"if" you would get off your "self-promoting" soap box, and quit promoting "your" brand of personal choice, as the best and only one to have!!

The arrogance you show, in your own personal choice of Amphib, only fuels these needless debates, instead of increasing the comon bond we all need to share.

That both the Max and Argo, are very capable machines,and a lot more durable than they were in the past.

Where one has an advantage in one area,,the other has an advantage in another,but,,neither one, sold in this day and age,,is the hands down winner!!!

Thats a fact jack!! Get over it! I,m glad you like your Amphib,,but,,I like my own personal choice too!!

And,,if you think "power to weight"ratio dont count,,watch some of Johns Schwabs video of Haspin acreas,or Badlands,,and you will see for yourself!

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( David Keeso )

"One Word Versatility "

The options you talk about, will make any Amphib more versatile, when it gets really cold outside, and,,where the ice and the ground is hard enough, to support the added weight of all your accessories.

But, if you have a "disadvantage" in "hp",,,and, also from the factory, with a heavy frame and chassis,,the Amphib with the better power to weight ratio will prevail!

As soon as you drive into soft, soupy mud,,or, soft peat moss,and wet swampy low lands,,all the "versatility" of your added options, will now be a big disadvantage!

What gives any Amphib its great superiority over other off road vehicles,,is its low "PSI" (pounds per sqaure inch) of its wheels on the ground.

The more options and accessories you add to any Amphib,,the more you "increase" the "PSI" of each wheel on the ground.

When the ground "PSI" increases on each wheel,so does the probability of getting high centered and stuck more often.

The "versatility" of all the options that you have increaced,, now greatly increases your chance of getting stuck.

"Your power to weight crap is,nt going to fly with me"

If you think that power to weight ratio does not apply,what about car drag racing or motor cycle drag racing?

This really becomes apparient, when any Amphib driver tries to drive across extremely difficult,wet,slimy,soupy,marshy,swampy,or
extremely soft and wet low lands.

This is where an Amphib with a better HP to weight ratio,,will prevail over one with lower HP and higher weight ratio.

Seeing is believing! If you start to watch some of John Schwabs Ampib video,s or go to any of the Ampib events at the Bad lands,,or Haspin acreas,,,you will find out the truth for yourself!

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

How much are the videos?

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

jsschwab@localnet.com (John Schwab)
IS THE ADDRESS FOR JOHN SCHWAB,
I BELEAVE UNTILL THE FIRST OF NEXT YEAR,JAN1,2003
HIS ARE STILL $15.00, BUT THEREAFTER THEY ARE MORE.I COULD BE WRONG BUT THERES HIS E-DRESS,
HE HAS THE VIDEOS DAVID SANDERS COULD PLAINLY SEE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES OF ONE VEHICLE OVER ANOTHER IN THE VAIRIOS SITUATIONS DESCRIBED ABOVE, MINE DO NOT HIGHLIGHT THES DIFERENCES VERY WELL, AS OF YET.

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( David Keeso )
I have watched several videos from John Schwab so far,,and,,if you like hard trail riding action,get
the Videos of " Hot time at the Badlands Off-Road
Park" (attica, Indiana ) June 22-23 2002, and, my favorite one, Haspin Acreas ( Laurel, Indiana )sept.27-30 2002

These two video,s show "mainly" Argo Bigfoots in action,,with very few Max,s. This should make you happy!

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Gentlemen, I have to agree with the statement that both Argo and Max have their advantages, and neither is the hands down winner under all circumstances. For what I need and where I drive, Argo is the better choice. However, under different circumstances, I might have gone with Max. This debate sounds a bit like arguing which is better, a sedan or a pickup truck. It all depends on what you plan to do with it!

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( Doughlas MacCullagh )

Yes,I think you hit the nail right on the head!
Both the Argo and Max made in this day and age,are
very capable machines.

Like you have posted,,neither one is the real winner! It all comes down to what you, as a individual plans to do with the Amphib you buy.

Like you,I have concluded,,that the Max IV 25hp, with its true 6 wheel drive, is --> "my" <-- best choice for the swampy,soupy, mud driving I plan to do in Louisiana.

But,,if I was a sportman,,I might then choose an Argo.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

To all. I honestly dont understand this continuing debate. Everyone keeps repeating it.

As dougmac said "Gentlemen, I have to agree with the statement that both Argo and Max have their advantages, and neither is the hands down winner under all circumstances."

"This debate sounds a bit like arguing which is better, a sedan or a pickup truck. It all depends on what you plan to do with it!"

Why can't we leave it at that??

By robnwan on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David,

What does your personal quote say? Have you left it at "that"? I happen to completly agree with your post but definitly not your personal quote.

;-)

Bob

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( David Keeso )

Its taken you quite a while,,to come to this conclusion:

That "Both", the Argo and the Max have their "0wn" advantages and also disadvantages,,and "neither" Amphib is the "hands down winner, under "all" circumstances"??

It has taken you a long time, to come to this "very evident" conclusion! Mabye the voice of reason, has finally prevailed with you?

Once you, or any one else, starts to read this forum board, on a regular basis,,the truth about each machine, will then become quite evident.

I know this has been true in my own experience!

When I first bought my new Max IV 25hp, in July,,I complained about the things I "did not" like about it. But, after watching John Swhabs video,s lots of times,,,,I can now see the strengths of my Max IV compared with an Argo.

Both the Argo and the Max,,could both be designed more efficent,,, no doublt! Comfort would be at the top of "my list" !

Both have their own unique strengths,,and "both" have their own "built-in" inherent weaknesses, from the factory that built them.

There is not an Amphib company out now,,that produces the "ultimate".

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

robnwan, david sanders. I knew this would come back to haunt me one day. I will admit that after reading through these posts and the endless max vs. argo debate, I have learned that each has advantages. Each has disadvantages. When I first came to this site, I didn't even know MAX existed let alone any other 6x6, 8x8. I still havn't seen a MAX in action, but I am now convinced that they are equal or superior to argo. I DO NOT MEAN THAT MAX IS BETTER- IM NOT FINISHED. ARGO IS ALSO SUPERIOR, BUT ALSO EQUAL. As everyone has endlessly mentioned, both have their strength and weaknesses. In regards to my quote in my profile,
"argo kicks MAX ass," well, lets just say that when it comes to body style, and overall looks of the machine, I think my quote sticks. In certain aspects it may apply, and in others, Max kicks ARGOs ass may apply (I can't believe I just said that)!

By Rem 721 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

At least we have a choice on what to buy. We should be happy that we have more than one brand of machine to choose from for whatever our reasons are that we buy and use them. How "cut and dried" things would be if we only had one machine on the market.

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David Keeso)

I had a "wise" old man, tell me this one day:

" Its much better to be thought a fool,,than to open your mouth,,and erase all doubt".

Some times, its better to learn by observing others ,before making statments, that you are unsure of,,or,,dont know much about.

This directly applies to Amphibs on this forum board.

Like you, I have "continued" to learn much about Amphibs, in the year I have been reading this forum board.

1: A lot from reading the postings here

2: Also, from the questions I have asked members of this forum board on the phone.

3: But,, a "whole lot" from watching both the Argo and Max in action.

The video,s I have watched over and over,,have really shown to me,,the strenghts of a Max IV 25 hp, with 26 inch tires,,when it is driven through
"extremely" muddy conditions.

I will agree though, that at first glance, when both machines are side by side ( Argo and Max ) the Argo "looks to be", the better made machine.

But,,I have now learned,,that "looks" dont mean much, in the slimy,soupy,,mashy wet mud, where these Amphibs are made to be used!!

This is where a "True Six Wheel Drive", shows its advantages over a "Limited Slip" transmission.

Combined with a lighter weight frame and body,,this then, becomes an advantage. This is where "power to weight ratio" makes a differnce, in the terrain these amphibs were "designed for".

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Who's bashing ARGO now? Everyone has different opinions, and I won't know what a max is like until I have the chance to go for a test ride. However, in the majority of the pictures i have seen, the ARGOs were stuck where they shouldn't have been. Max got stuck but only in steep hills or a lot of mud

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( David Keeso )

If you are referring to my recent post,I was not in any way "bashing" an Argo! The Argo is a "high" quality machine! No doubt about that!!
I think every one on this forum board will agree with that!

It is both, well made,,and well thought out. The only down side though, to this other wise fine machine,,is its "limited-slip" transmission.

If the Argo had a "T-20" transmission installed in it, from the factory ,or, if Argo designed a transmission similar to it,,that would give "True-Six-wheel-Drive",,,I would stand in line to buy one!

But,,they do not!! This is the very reason I bought the Max IV 25 hp,,with 26 inch tires that I have now!

By mike martindale (Wetsu) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

the deepest snow i have driven my bigfoot in was,about 8 in. i don't have tracks,just them good ol' rawhide 3's.and they performed just fine.it started out as powder then we had an ice storm,which dumped an additional 2 ins.of ice.what a blast......tree limbs down all over the place,cars stuck,no power,it was paradise.because i still managed to get around fine.in fact i even wet to the grocery store in it.gave a few people rides home from the main drag,etc.up hill was the worst unless you had a real good run,tracks would have been real handy there. all u guy's with snow or even the chance of snow i envy you all.my town now has been 36 days with no precip of any kind.80 miles south they had 5 ins.of snow and me and afew brave souls got together and tore it up.there was a max iv and a response,and a vangaurd 2,and of course my bigfoot.we all did good and bad.and had a great time doing it.no debates just riding,and a little showing off....ok a lot of showing off.i am impressed with both machines,my preference however is the argo.for severalreasons.room,looks,tire size,and so far the easy maintenance.i was mainly impressed with max because of the fuel tank in the front.on long steep hills going up my bigft.tends to stall out,ussually just before i get to the top...and folks that IS NOT A GOOD THING.because it likes to get a second wind and ooooboy....yes i am speaking from experience.those end over end rides.....noooooo fun.
as with most of the post's i have read the subject always tends to drift a little so i will get off my soapbox now....i just wanted to add another argo vote. not for better,or best,just good,for me.and that is what really counts,isn't it??????

By Chris M. (Argomaster9000) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

HAHA!

David (Kesso),

Don't take so much offence when they Argo bash. I've learned not to. Max owners get bashed as well. If anything, I've learned this:

a) both machines have their strengths and weaknesses

b) owners will never bash their own machines, so stop trying to convince that yours is better than theirs (it's just not worth your time)

Like I've mentioned so many times, people love their machines because it's THEIRS! They love working on it, riding it, showing off with it, etc.

I just want to thank Route6x6 for this great forum and for you countless readers/posters for educating me. I've yet to see a Max in real life but hopefully, one day...

Happy bouncing!! :-)

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

CHRIS M, I USED TO BASH MINE AND DREW LOTS OF FIRE FOR IT, BUT WEEKNESES ARE WEEKNESSES AND SOONER OR LAITER MOST OF MY BASHING HAVE BIN EXEPTED, AS I WAS TRYING TO TAKE AIR OUT OF SOME WIND BAGS AS WELL AS HOPE IT HELPED PUSH THE DEVELOPMENT OF FUTURE VEHICLES

By Robert C Pickerd (Tugger) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Max/Argo?? I read here about the 18-20-24 HP engines and the upcoming 27. Are you kidding?? My old Hustler has 39-40 HP and at times I wish it had more. Is 24 really enough in something like an 8 wheeler? I've read most of the posts and there is one lingering question... what is Humphreys? I would love to try both the Max and the Argo plus the Triton and see if the posts here about all of them hold ANY water.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

humphrey is a small town in south western
new york,
they have a volenteir fire department who take the time to put on a rideing event for us folks with amphibious all terain vehicles as a fund raiser for the volenteir fire department,
they secure permition from the land owners and realy work hard to make the events safe and fun for all! you can find plenty of max vehicles and argo vehicles as well as plenty of attex,hustler,amphicat's scramblers terra tigers,starcrafts,coots, and i have even sean a hoot there! but you may never see a triton at humphrey, prehaps you will never see one anywhere, i think there is only one and it's never comeing to humphrey, ooh well
hope too see you at the next humphrey event,
(im one of the ideots with a video camera)

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

There is no 8 wheel Argo or Max out now,,with a 24 hp motor in it. Max dont even build an 8 wheel amphib. The biggest motor Argo puts in an 8 wheeler, is a 20 hp Kawasaki.

I recently talked to a guy at the Max factory,and he told me, that Max is still testing a couple of "pro-type" engines.

They are trying to decide which one they will make available to the pubic, in the near future

The guy I spoke with though,,did tell me,,that Max will be coming out with a 27 hp motor in the Max IV this coming year.

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I hope R.I. does some R and D work and not just drop in a bigger motor. Bearing failures are way to common on these machines.If the drivetrain isnt beefed up along with the motor I see more failures.I went on 4 Max- Argo rides this year and 2 rides had Max bearing failures. Not bashing Max, But hope they avoid problems ahead. Eddie

By mike s. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The max2 800 has a 20hp engine in it. I saw a max2 850 that stated it had a 23 or 25hp engine in it. The price I saw was 9200.00 or so. Has anyone else seen this?

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Yes Mike, the Max II 850T has a 23 HP Kohler Command. It has all the neat things that the 25HP Kohler has Like oil cooler, etc. The regular retail price is $9270. The 800T series (both Max II and Max IV) has been discontinued.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have been at the cottage for two full days now and already put 8.5 hrs on the ARGO. We don't have much snow and won't get enough for tracks i don't think. However, under the snow, their is some great ice patches. I went down a few tonight and sent the ARGO into tripple 360 spinns. It was great. Got stuck a few times, but managed to get out fine. Unfortunatly, I don't have my camera here so I can't get any good pics but i might buy a disposable tomorrow in town and get some action shots. I also managed to get a nice buildup of snow on the underbody above the wheeles. Their is even a part in between that curved down inbetween the wheeles. I love it up here, and the argoing is great. I am hoping to meet up with another ARGO friend tomorrow and run through some good trails.

Merry Christmas to all!

By Jim Stiver - Western PA MAX Dealer (Viper) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mike,

The Max II 850T (Retail $9270) and Max IV 800 (Retail $9995) both have a 23hp Kohler Command 674cc engine. The Max IV 900T (Retail $10,560) has a 25hp Kohler Command 725cc motor in it.

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( Eddie Bedddingfield )
The man I talked to, at Recreatives, said that Max in the very near future, will also have "new style" bearings" to go along with the larger motors they coming out with.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

eddie b,
hope i wasent the guy you saw who had bearing failures ,lol
yah im often fixing somthing broken along the side of a trail, and yes at humphrey this year i had to replace a bearing, they have made some inprovments since 1986 when mine was made but then again i do have a 38 hp engine and i agree as to the statment you made that more hp than they were useing before is reducing life expectency of drive train unless they do some more enginearing,
what hurts axle bearings most beleave it or not isent the forces along the direction of rotation, witch is what there designed for, but instead in this aatv axle aplication they are subjected to forces along the axle lenth in and out forces cause unfair amount of where n tear to axle bearings as they have the added duty of locating the axel in the machine, i beleave another system to controle thrust load or another system to locate axle is in order to add to axle bearing life, now there are at least 2 bearings shairing this duty so they last longer but it isent the proper use of the bearings and more needs to be done , expecialy in light of increasing hp load in newer modles,

By newmax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

not sure what bearings they are using but when mine go i am going to replace them with bearings from my place of work. i work at new hampshire ball bearings. the bearings they use are probably junk bearings as far as we are concerned. we supply to the areospace industry. they should be using preloaded bearings oposing each other. I will be replacing mine with bearings that are designed for thousands of hours prelubed for life extreamly weatherproof under ectreame loads.

By Robert C Pickerd (Tugger) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Maybe my question on horsepower should be put differently.. If argo loses as much as 5hp in a turn do you still have enough power to lock a track in mud or other sticky places? I don't have much time on my machine yet but would like to know more about the areospace bearings.

By mike s. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Replaced the bearings on my max with the same ones that were on there, because they still worked, when I took the frame out to do some modifications. They are BCA bearings. I called the factory but they had bearings from Japan or China and were not BCA's. Factory bearings were around $33.00 a piece as were the BCA's locally. I found them on the web for $13.00 a piece! So far they are still running well. This is a thirteen year old Max.

By mike martindale (Wetsu) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

newmax,does your company have any of those bearings to fit an ARGO BIGFOOT? i blew one out yesterday,and i am in dire need of one.

By newmax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I would have to know the dimensions of the bearing

By sz6vgh on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hydro Traxx has not posted for some time, but this is our response to several of the questions that have come up regarding our reliablity, usaebility, and durability. This will be included in three separate posts.

For years the typical drive train for a 6X6 or 8X8 Amphibious ATV have been chains, axles & sprockets. This of course has its faults along with advantages and disadvantages as with many products in a comparable market. It is not to say these lightweight, low horsepower and inexpensive machines are good or bad. There is some regular maintenance, repeated repairs and downtime involved in keeping these machines operable at the owner�s expense. Some people find this acceptable these being low cost machines to start with and of course the two big manufacturers of these machines, Max and Argo, recognize the range of their market with this drive system.

By sz6vgh on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Post #2
When you add horsepower, tracks, large diameter tires along with weight this chain drive system will begin to fail, fast. Unfortunately there are some �want to be� manufacturers in the U.S. and Canada whom as of yet do not fully understand the engineering problems and faults associated with the chain drive system. They try to build a heavy mid-range machine with horsepower and a chain drive system to compete with Hydro Traxx and are very short-lived. While somewhat impressive and easy to operate like the Hydro Traxx when new; these machines begin to show weakness after a short time. They boast about having the greatest machine in the World but the fact is they have the same old thing (chain drive) that has been around for years. You must understand it does not matter whether your chain drive system has a hydro-motor or some other mechanical drive, it will still have the same problems. One tends to wonder what they are thinking when they try to develop a modern high-tech hydrostatic drive with the old fashion way of chains. Mixing high-tech with this obsolete technology is not a good idea�somehow the next guy thinks he can make it work and they are �wrong�. These guys all claim to have it figured out. They are all really in the same boat and it is sinking! History has shown this system does not work on the larger machines. That boat just doesn�t float for long. The big three auto manufacturers tell you not to drive your 4X4 truck with the front wheel drive engaged, especially on hard surfaces. This is the same principal as with 4-wheel and 6-wheel ATV�s. When all-wheel drive is engaged and you have a mechanical link-up, it begins to eat it up! What makes these homemade backyard �want to be�, think they can make it work? The fact is if you think you can get by with a chain drive. I strongly recommend a Max or Argo since they have parts, service and have been around for years. They are not bad machines if used in their recreational market range. These �want to be� manufacturers don�t have a clue regarding the investment needed to produce these machines even in such low volume. Hydro Traxx has invested several million and expects to invest several million more in new molds & equipment for manufacturing lines. We are here to stay and we are in the game for real!

So what makes the Hydro Traxx different.?.?.?
First let me say we put over a $150,000 into testing the chain drive system for the military and other Government agencies. We had initially developed a more high tech approach using a special gearbox & drive shafts sealed in gear oil. This was a very clean small package, heavy-built system. But, After much testing it was proven to have the same faults as the chain drive system and therefore scrapped. To make a long story short, having a mechanical link up between axles, chains, belts and gearbox does not work on a heavy high-powered machine and is short-lived on lighter low powered machines.

By sz6vgh on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Post #3.
Our current full hydro-stat drive system has been evaluated by military consultants, contractors and other Government agencies and has received an above excellent rating and full approval for Government agency applications. Hydro Traxx was at the top of the list out of 200 vehicles evaluated. An old man once told me� �Don�t tell everything you know�. Sometimes this can be good advice and so I won�t go into details!

The Hydro Traxx is in a class above the rest and truly the only one of its kind on the market with no chains, no sprockets, no gears, no conventional transmission�simply�no mechanical link-up. We have designed and we manufacture our own hydraulic wheel motor. Each wheel is driven by its own motor and is independent of each other. This design relieves the many stresses as commonly associated within the typical chain drive systems. In other words each wheel is separate from the other. That means if one wheel wants to run 100 rpm and the other at 98 rpm and a third at 101 rpm it can do this. In a simplistic manner you have an engine driving a hydraulic pump, driving six hydraulic wheel motors.

We have read several of the posts in various discussion boards from the so-called self-proclaimed experts. Who can really fault them trying to make a buck in this economically stressed time. They have never seen a Hydro Traxx but seem to have it and all of its faults figured out. We don�t claim to be in the same class or market as a Max or Argo but just to set the record straight on a few points.

See next post for points.

By sz6vgh on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Post #4

1. Our machine although larger in size and heavier has comparable ground pressure to the Argo.

2. Hydro Traxx uses new engines in its AATV�s, not refurbished or rebuilt engines like other manufacturers.

3. You say, �The Hydro Traxx is real slow.� Don�t know how fast one would care to go in a dense forest or gumbo-like mud but if speed is your game. The Hydro Traxx can be set-up to run around 25mph.

4. The Hydro Traxx has tire options with sizes that include 25�, 26�, 27� and 28� giving it a ground clearance up around 11 Inches.

5. The Hydro Traxx has optional bucket seats with suspension for comfortable riding and comfort for the operator�s back during long hours of operation,

6. You say �Hydraulic = Heat Problems�. We say simply, �We don�t have heat problems.� and you say �Well yea�what about running wide open for a long period of time.� We simply say, �We don�t have heat problems.� Are you beginning to get the picture?

7. You say, �The Hydro Traxx will stall out on a 45 degree incline.� We say, �You can be at a stand still at the bottom of the 45 degree incline and this machine will walk up the hill.� �Even with our lowest torque machine, you can go up the hill and do 360 turns.�

8. You say, �The Hydro Traxx is to heavy in water and can�t maneuver well.� ATV magazine who product tested the Hydro Traxx says, �The Hydro Traxx is by far the best they have ever tested and seen with regards to floatation and maneuverability in the water.�

9. You say, �Lot of maintenance required with the Hydro Traxx.� We say, �There is significantly less maintenance than all other 6-wheel AATV�s on the market combined.�

10. You say, �Very expensive and starts at $20K.� We say, � Our new low-end 30HP starts at $14K with standard options while our 42HP and 44HP Turbo starts at $17.5K and $18K respectively and you get what you pay for!�

ATV magazine rated the Hydro Traxx the most powerful and overbuilt AATV they have ever tested and this my friend is not without reason. We know we have a machine that is considered at the high-end of the 6-wheel AATV spectrum as far as the recreational market is concerned. We also know we have the only AATV for the business and industrial market that meets the demand for an AATV in the most stringent of application and requirements where the owner can expect a return on his investment.

We can truly say we have something nobody else has and if your requirements call for a heavy built, high torque and very low maintenance machine, you really need to check us out today. www.hydrotraxxonline.com

Thank you & best regards.

Brian A. Johnson
Hydro Traxx Incorporated

By Tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brian:
I just checked out your site and it does look like an incredible machine. I would love to see you guy's do a demo at next years Humprey ride or Petes spring fling 2003.

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

It is still to big to be on most ATV trails. It is still overpriced ,and I have yet to see one out in public. Just my 2 cents on this machine. Eddie

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brian: I have a small mathematical question that I want to ask you. In point #1 you state that the Hydro Traxx "has comparable ground pressure to an Argo". It appears from your web site that you use the same size tires as the Argo. Now if your machine weighs hundreds of pounds more than an Argo, just how is this accomplished? Also, who gives out used engines in a new AATV? I agree with Tim. If your machine is as good as you say, bring one to Humprey's and smoke all of the AATv's there. I think the best sales pitch is to show off your machine and show what it can do.

By Don Abernathey (Dla) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Oooohhh, looks like you lawnmower owners just got challenged. Are any of you up to it? Can any of you Max & Argo owners provide some FACTS to defend your vehicles?

By David Sanders on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( Brian )

Some one brought a Hydro Traxx to Humphrey ,New York one time,,and most people there,,were not impressed at all with its performance in the mud.

When compared to the Max and Argos, that were competing in Mud events,,the Hydro- Traxx was seen as too heavy,,because it bottomed out a lot easier,,than the other lighter machines there.

Because of its heavier over all weight,,the Hydro-Traxx has a much higher "psi" per wheel,,than the Argo or even lighter Max. This caused it to "belly drag" a lot more frequent.

The Hydro-Traxx might have a better drive system that either the Argo or the Max,,but,,it can not fit through most trails ridden at the Humphrey event.

The Hdro-Traxx is a more "industrial" type Amphib
than the Argo or Max,,and for this reason, it will mainly be used for commercial uses. It would be very limited if it were ever used for recreation.

For the above reasons,,most people here,that read this forum board,,will not choose it for over all use.

Were I live in Louisiana,,with the dense over growth of trees,,it would be of little use to me.

But,,the Hydro-Traxx is a great machine!! No doubt about it !!

By liflod (Liflod) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well Don , it looks like someone has the AATV that you need to pull your pickup truck through the woods!!!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

true i was there when the hydrotrax was there, they did do the trails,
but they made some of them a bit wider as they went,
they did have the gut's to bring it there,
unlike land tamer and triton,
now i thought my max II was loud but the hydrotrax sounded like a dc-10!
it was very agile though, slow and agile,heh heh heh
clearly too heavy, but they did bring it out,
are you listening land tamer and trition?
even hoot showed us what there all about!

By argoguru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brian,
The machine I saw at humphrey was not really a recreational machine that people want for humphrey events or anything like that. (my opinion). that was the only hydro-trax I have seen, but as far as going through mud and swamp, high centering was an issue. Psi is not always your enemy though. when climbing slippery hard-clay hills etc. it is your friend.
the hydro-traxx is in the market of odgs' centaur, very expensive, and from the sounds of it made to work.
I dont agree with your chain comments. they are simple and work well, and you dont loose the torque with a gearbox and chain system that you do with hydrolic drive systems. speed is always an issue to for some reason, I guess I like it just because I hit the roads after a good snow storm and also to get to some trails.
I am sure your machine is built well, but more than likely the price will cause it to never compete with a max or argo, they are way over priced as it is.

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Does anyone know if anyone at HYDRO-TRAX worked for ARGO or ODG? There are alot of similarities in appearance.I heard this , but wondered if anyone else has.

By matthew smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

What else would you expect to hear from a hydro-traxx salesman? this is his opinion, If I was out in the middle of nowhere and needed to repair a chain,is possible or In a hydro-traxx machine If lost hydraulic fluid dew to a leak, try to fix this,with out taking a hoses and fluid and tools to do the repair,thanks for your salesman opinion for hydro-traxx! but no thanks,my maxlV 900T is a well balanced machine, engine in the rear, exhaust fumes,engine heat,#2 driver right up front, with a whole lot better visibility! than having a so called an engine and engine hood in front of you, in my opinion the max is the maximum machine

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

EDDIE, WHAT DO YAH MEAN, THE HYDROTRAX ISENT AS BUT UGLY AS THE ARGO CENTOR, AND THE CENTOR CAN MANUVER THREW NARROWER AREAS THEN THE HYDROTRAX CAN, ALSO THE BUT UGLY CENTOR IS QUIETER THEN THE X-TREEMLY LOUD HYDROTRX,

By Paul Simpson (Sp1r1t) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I'll answer this.I'm not a hydro traxx salesman but I now own one.I bought it BECAUSE it's hydraulic drive.However,what you say is true.IF I were broken down in a swamp I would rather have to replace a chain than a hydraulic line but only because hydraulic fluid would make a mess to have to clean up.I have three tractors on this property and hydraulic fluid is messy.But changing a hose is an infrequent problem,and usually only because brush has torn the hose loose.The hydraulic lines in the hydro traxx are inside and protected from brush so that won't be a problem.I have never had a hydraulic hose failure in a tractor due to "overpressure" or something like that.The system has safeguards built in to stop that kind of thing.The point to be made here is that you have a much higher chance of being stuck in the swamp fixing a chain than you have of fixing a hydraulic line.I speak from experience on this.I have been riding motorbikes,3 wheelers,four wheelers,tractors,job site machinery,for years and I always repaired my own equipment.HYDRAULIC SYSTEMS ARE MORE DEPENDABLE THAN CHAIN DRIVES FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS.They just cost more initially and add more weight to the machine.Now you can certainly flame me out as being just defending my own machine and that is certainly your privilige but it doesn't negate my 30 years experience with mechanical things.And one more thing.Go take a look at ANY new farm tractor on the lot today.See how many chain drives there are and then ask how many functions are performed by hydraulics.Your power steering is hydraulic,your lift arms are hydraulic,and many of your PTOs are now hydraulicly driven.If your criticism of Brian is that he is tooting his own horn,that is true.But he isn't pushing hydraulics because he's stuck selling them.He selling them because he thinks they are the best option available for what is demanded of them.If you want to level valid criticism then it should be more along the lines of:
1.Chains are simpler than hydraulics.(True)
2.Chains are lighter than hydraulics.(True)
3.Chains are cheaper than hydraulics.(True initially,not true over the long haul)
One final point.I'm answering your criticism because Brian probably won't be back to the board for awhile because he's working and doesn't have time.His recent posts may very well be because I personally asked him on the phone to come over here and advance the position of hydraulic drive over chain drive just because most people who come here to read have no real knowledge of his machine.I personally think he should stay away from the recreational market and concentrate more on selling his machines to oil companies,utility companies,surveying etc.,etc.,etc.My whole point here is that you really are comparing apples to oranges when you compare Hydro Traxx to chain drives.

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well said.

By mike martindale (Wetsu) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

newmax, i wouldn't begin to know how to give you the demensions,other than they are 1.25and 1.00.there is a bearing manufacturer here in ks. my question to you is would it be cheaper for me to take one to them and have some made,or just get them from my dealer? 24.00 apiece from the dealer. right now i'm looking at about $60.00 to do a complete axle rebuild. bearings,gaskets,and flanges.

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David, What I'm saying is it looks exactly like an ARGO. Scale it down and look at the seat and the pockets where it attaches. Now look at the front and the contour of the sides. I dont think this came off there drawingboard and looked that close without them knowing it looked just like an ARGO only bigger.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Paul, I appreciate your comments, but have some ideas of my own concerning the topic being discussed. True, I have never seen or driven or ridden in a Hydro Traxx, Predator, or Landtamer - I have seen several Argos. The PSI on the ground thing is what skid steer (your hydraulic (and predator) are still skid steer concept) amphibious ATVs are all about. If flotation is not important then use a machine that is not hampered by the no suspension of skid steers. Skid steers are limited in their tire choices as to what is available and to what the machine can operate with. The Max IV with the 26" tires has as much (or more than) rubber on the ground as any skid steer on the market and it has the lowest overall weight of any machine rated to carry 1000 pounds or more (also lower than some machines that are rated to carry 700 pounds). What do you think your machine weighs with all the options you have?

I have been a bobcat skid steer loader owner for about 35 years and also own and have owned several tractors. Hydraulics are great, but they do have limitations. And hoses do break! And they do it with no warning and no signs of weakness. Several hydraulic experts have told me that one should replace their hoses every three years if they want guaranteed reliable service. How long does it take to replace all hoses on a Hydro Traxx and how much does it cost? And how long does it take and how much does it cost and how often do you have to change your hydraulic fluid? How often, how much and how long to change your hydraulic filter or filters? I know that in dusty conditions that stuff has to be done often!! Most people don't have to change their chain and sprockets every three years. I suppose my biggest complaint with hydraulic systems is that the engines have to be revved up. I get tired of the noise, the monotonous, continuous noise. When will we get a hydraulic system that will operate satisfactorily at 1/4 or 1/3 throttle?

I don't understand what makes some people think that the commercial and professional market wants a machine that can't go when the going gets tough. The Max IV 900T with the 26" tire is the machine for speed, power, agility and durability and the lowest PSI on the ground (except for the Max II). It is also pretty economical in initial cost and cost to operate. I don't agree that it is apples and oranges - skid steers have to have low PSI on the ground or they are tractors (and tractors are better if you want a tractor).

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

MIKE WE COULD TRY TO DESCRIBE HOW TO MESHUR INSIDE DIMENTIONS AND OUTSIDE DEMENTIONS BUT IF YOU CAN REMOVE THE OLD ONE AND BRING IT WITH YOU TO THAT PLACE NEAR YOU THEY COULD MESHUR IT AND CHECK IT AGENST THERE STOCK SIZES, YES THEY ARE EASY TO FIND IN STOCK FROM ALMOST ALL MANUFACTORERS, EACH HAS THERE OWN PART NUMBER THOUGH, BUT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO HELP YOU,
HOWEVER THE PRICE WILL BE SIMILER, PREHAPS LESS BUT $60 AN AXLE ISENT TOO BAD,YOU MAY GET A GOOD REDUCTION ON THAT FIG THOUGH, GOOD LUCK AND DO LET ALL OF US KNOW, MYSELF I WAS PAYING $38.00 FOR BEARINGS FROM RECREATIVS AND THEN A FRIEND GAVE ME SOME BEARINGS FROM A PLACE IN BOSTON, AT APROX $16.00 EACH! SAME BEARINGS TOO!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

EDDIE, OK I'LL HAVE TOO LOOK AT SOME PICS AGAIN, I GUES I WAS STUCK ON THE HYDRALICS PART, HEH HEH,
AND I GUESS THE ONLY THING UGLYER THAN A CENTUER MIGHT BE A LAND TAMER, ITS A GOOD PLATFORM I GUESS BUT COULD USE A PRITYER BODY HUH,
I MENTIONED IT TOO THEM BUT THEY ARE SHUR THEY HAVE THE BEST BODY STYLE,MYSELF I CAN SEE MORE POSABILITYS, LIKE THE KIT CAR INDUSTRY DID FOR VW BEATLES SALES WITH REALY COOL BODY STYLES,
WELL I ALSO REMEMBER SOMEONES COMENTS ON HYDROTRAX MAYBY SHIPPING INCOMPLEATLY ASEMBLED MACHINES THAT ALSO HAD USED ENGINES, IF I REMEMBER THE OWNER COMPLAINT FROM WAY-WAY BACK SOME PLACE ON THE DISCUSSION BOARD CORRECTLY I BELEAVE HE WAS REFERING TOO HIS LAND TAMER!
NOT ALL THE POP RIVITS WERE INSTALED AND THE ENGINE WAS FROM A BONE YARD, CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG,

By newmax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mike that depends on if it is a standard size for them. if it's standard size it will probably cheaper from the bearing house

By matthew smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sounds like the hydro traxx is a slow lumbering heavy peace of farm equipment? top speed 13 mph most people can run faster than that? it is also over priced, you can buy a used tractor for that price and do tractor work and make$$ I am not a speed demond but that is to slow and heavy, and in the water it is even slower, with that kind of weight it would that much to sink. you better keep this hydro on the farm with the rest of the grass cutters,have you ever change the motor oil in a hot engine? its kind of hot on your hands when it drains on your hands! now think how hot that hyd. oil is in that system, I would hate to get sprayed by that oil if a line fails, or wait an hour or two to wait for it to cool down so you can repair it? and how far down stream would you be if this happened in the water! row row row your boat gently down the stream ----- thats all for now.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Chris M-- Are you still going to send me all those pictures of your machine that you were going to send on the 21st of December?? PLEASE, I would really like to see your machine.
The Hydrotraxx looks way to similar to ARGO. To be honest, it looks like some car enthusiast took their car ideas took and ARGO and souped it up. I have never seen one in real life (nor a max) but I have seen their clips on their crappy site (no offence) They don't look like they were very good, but looks can be deceiving as we all know.

I personally wouldn't buy one if I was buying a new machine- even if my price range was unlimited. I would have to say I would at least try a max but more likely, another ARGO. (I would at least give MAX a try)

By mike martindale (Wetsu) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i went to that hydrotraxx site,took me 3 tries to get there wahaha.guess it was just meant to be.i have just one question,is an aatv supposed to be sooooo shiny????them dudes had better finishes on them than my wifes car.other than that i thought that they looked ok. i didn't check to see what the psi on those lines were mathew,but if they blow on you and pierce the skin,it really won't matter how hot it is,cause you will probably die from that oil blocking your arteries.or just stopping your heart.
i won't be buying one either,unless i win the powerball....no not then either,well maybe the one with the 28 in.tires.i kinda like the idea of ground clearence,hence deeper mud holes.but for the money.....,i could get 3 argo's,( which won't be happening to soon either ).but like i have discovered from all that i have read on these post's,to each their own,what works for one may not work for another.i ride mine for fun in the sun or in the mud or anywhere else i can go,i don't need to get there fast,as long as i get there.ohh and back.and for that i believe i made the right choice, my ARGO BIGFOOT,

By Damen T.Hill (Argoss) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Ok folks time for my input on this.

If you want a good machine go hunt your self down a argo,max,scrambler,What ever your prefrence is. machine with a blown motor,is a basket case.Sitting forgotton in a field some where or in someones junk yard and then nurse it back to health. then that will be the "best" aatv in your mind and maybe others because you took it from "just" a rusting fading out old hunk of plastic and steel. back into the machine it used to be with your own two hands. Personally
My favorite aatv ain't been made yet And proboly never will be.it would look like a scrambler have the frame of a argo.and have a Healthy 40-50hp two stroke snowmobile engine it.And since it would be a two stroke, have a six wheeled gas station that followed it every where!

And one other last rambling before i go,

I wanna know why argo and all the other companys quit putting real engines in there machines by real i mean 40-50hp engines. Because my argo has from the factory a 40 hp engine in it and I have had people ask me about its safty and relibilty.
My argo is safe as long as one, you don't try anything that would be unsafe in any other 6x6.It is very relible have had no chain,sprocket,or tranny problems. The only problem i have had is how much my face hurts when i get done.(its from all the grinning i do while I driving it ;)

By mike martindale (Wetsu) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well said

By ryan t on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I live in ms. i duck hunt in some thick delta mud
and high water, and it is about to tear my rubicon
apart ,i am thinking about selling it and getting a six wheeler, any suggestions on the max or argo
which would be the least maintnence

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Ryan, I talked to you earlier today. I used to run my 4x4 in mud and water like you do. They do a good job in most terrain but every part of the quad is submerged or covered in very abrasive mud/sand. This pretty much sets you up for nothing less than total destruction of every moving part. Things were wearing out on mine but the thing that made me sell was rolling it in a creek. Lots of damage to the quad and a Max would have just floated across.
Both brands of six wheelers are very good quality and maintenance is kept to a minimum. I prefer the o-ring chains found only on the Max. These last over 1000 hours with much less adjustment than standard chain. Bearings are very high quality on the '03 machines. I like to grease them at least every 25 hours or after any ride that involves hard mudding. True six wheel drive is why I prefer the Max.

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Ryan,
Both the Max and Argo can work for you. both have very little maintenance that needs to be done. The Max will be a lot easier to do maintenance on then the Argo. The Max IV with the rollcage is great with duck hunters because all you need to do is just put camo netting around the cage and hunt out of the Max. I sell a bunch of Max IV's to duck hunters and they all love them. Hope this info helps.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Ryan, the ARGOs have a much higher amount of payload ability vs the max that does have cargo area but much less. The ARGOs are very stable vehicles and they have several different options to fit your needs. Hope this helps some.

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Just go look and test drive some. I have an argo 8 but would have 2 argo's and two max's and a big trailer if I could.

By Dave Johnston on Unrecorded Date: Edit

WHOW...long debate.. I think maintenance and repair is a primary concern. If you are 30 minutes away from an ARGO dealer and 2 HOURS away from a MAX dealer, I would go with the ARGO...vice versa.... Out here in the far west...I bought a FORD F-250 as I can get it fixed in almost any town...but a DODGE? Good luck.... Same logic... My Argo dealer in Carson City can get me anything I want in less than a week. He will even deliver it to my house. Want some stuff that is not standard Argo? He can supply it. Dealer support is the #1 factor in my book...

By rves on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I don't own either max or argo yet ! I will say that we are demoing both at this time and will be taking a dealership for one or both! I have some time in a argo 8 wheel and a max 2cyl anyways the units that are here now are both 6 wheel ! the argo does indeed loose half of its torque in a sharp turn !! I can feel it and I can back it up with math, and if pushed I can probably chassis dyno each of these and prove it that way , we are an equiptment dealer and we build race engines and have a fab shop, and run a race team ! the argo looks better!! max
quality is suspect!!! the t-20 is much eaiser to use cause of the lack of torque reduction in steer mode !! I think what I really would like is an argo with rear engine and and t-20 but since I can't have that ( without making it ourselves) SO what I am down to in making my decision is WHICH ONE IS THE BETTER BOAT ?
THIS WILL MAKE ME CHOOSE ! I WANT TO CARRY THE ONE THAT GOES IN WATER THE BEST is there a hands down winner to this question ? or are they close (again) please let me know ????????????
other then that I don't like the power loss of the argo in a turn and you guys can argue that till the cows come home , but math don't lie!!!
thanks
tony 845-626-3412

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tony,
Everyone here will tell you which is the better of the two in mud, climbing, etc. They will argue which is the best, etc. I also think that everyone that has seen a Max IV with the 26" tires in the water, will all say that this is the fastest atv in the water without using a small motor, hands down. I myself have raced in water with all models of Max and Argo's and no one can come close to being as fast as the Max IV with 26" tires.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Yes, Tony, there is a hands down winner in the water category. It is the Max IV with 26" tires. All max, using the more aggressvie tires, being better balanced, are better in going in and out of the water.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well you have to look at and think about several things to answer your questions! First thing if you are looking to make a business and some money out of it, then you may want to consider a different venture all together! Unless the economy continues to pick up and take off again.

The Max brand dealer network is what I term a free for all, you must bare the complete burden of advertising and marketing. The MSRP mark up on the Max machines seems to have dwindled down to near zero profit margin currently. There seems to be a better used market right now versus new, and it also looks likes many dealers have been stuck with inventory for a while, and are just trying to get ride of machines to recoup some cash back. I could be wrong, but it does appear that way. I do not see any national advertising going on with the Max brand as compared to the Argo brand.

The current Max brand machine are definately made well, I have not had any problems with my new machine at all. Nice build quality and easy to work on! The Factory people are excellent to deal with, and they do provide great service support and follow up!

The Max's float and operate in water just fine, good balance and stability. The Max II is hard to beat, it is smaller, lighter, compact, and handles real well. The latest Max IV-950T is a solid match up against the Argo 6x6 Bigfoot and 6x6 Conquest machines. The T-20 transmission is definately a solid work horse.

Argo on the other hand does seem to have a good control of their distributor and dealer network, and some how have been able to maintain their MSRP mark up level consistently. Argo does seem to have a much more affective national advertising and marketing approach. The Argo distributors also seem to be very active in getting shows scheduled and keeping some form of advertising going at all times. Not real sure how well the Argo's have been selling lately, but if its like every thing else, I am sure they have seen some tough times also.

The Argo machines are indeed built well, very robust and the quality level seems to be just fine. Personally I would not even bother with handling the 8x8 Conquest unit, (Sorry Guys), I would handle the newly released 8x8 "Conquesting Avenger", for the bigger wheels and the larger HP liquid cooled engine.

The Argo machine float just fine in the water, and the 8x8 machines will handle the largest loads and have the best stability in water.

Ideally a mix and match of both brands is not a bad idea, to cover all application needs.

Again if the economy does continue to pick up, then things should start to return back to boom times again. If not, then you may be farther ahead to fold your wad of cash in half, and stick it back in your pocket and just say you doubled your money.

On the other hand the stock market is also showing signs of returning to boom times aagin, so you may want to also consider picking a few well known stocks that are trading low right now, and just buy some stocks and hold onto them. You would probably have a better chance of making a much better return on yoor investment.

And last but not least real estate is always a solid investment. I don't think I have ever lost a dime on buying real estate!

Hope this information helps!

By rves on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well i have never been accused of making the best business decisions when It comes to machines but I have sure been sucessful, my business is made up of nitch market machines that are unusual and not for everyone( AIEBI WE are the exception to the rule in this type of business and I am the guy that would never knuckle under to big companies! I can't help but be intrigued by the fact that these things float , and I am willing to put money on it that many customers would feel the same way if they were just introduced to these things in a proper way! I love the ARGO but how the hell do they get away with that crude way of steering ???? I have repowered several 8x8s one with well over 45 hp and it still feels like a slug and a rocket when you go into full steer mode !! can I learn how to use it anyway/? sure but it don't make me smile and why should i have to make consessions , even if both companies merged to build a machine it would still lack engineering !! are you guys sure that there is not another company out there that makes the perfect 6x6 and you just won't tell me who???????
price is only an object when a machine lacks perfection ! I sell 120thousand$$$$ lawn mowers to home owners (not many ) But I do sell some and that proves that people will pay for quality and engineering if you let them
thanks
tony

By Douglas MacCullagh (Dougmac) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tony -

In the water, all of the Max machines are rated to carry 500 lbs. Six-wheel Argos are rated at 350 lbs, 8 wheelers at 700 lbs (although I have not double-checked the Avenger). ODG recommends backing the Argo into the water if the bank is steep, but you can drive out. Argo's have a bilgepump kit that installs nicely, but you need to jury rig a Max. The Max IV may be faster in the water, but I link my Response's carrying ability.

By RickMoMoBigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

You should check the machines out yourself at a ride if possable. I've had one for over 3 years now.Been to a bunch of rides with most on this broad.(I) always had great fun.Mine could go anywhere the others could go. I've seen the others aatv's wait to see if someone else made it threw some stuff frist too.But I still see some of these riders came on this site and talk about how great they are and best fastest. I been coming to this site for a very long time.Way befor most knew of it. I'm sick on some of there post.They never "lose " or they can "do it all". I had been to a bunch of rides and i have seen diffrent!! Some of them don't have as big of balls as there mouth.Sorry if some don't like but I'm sure some would agree with me because they have seen for themselves. Just my opinion. Have a nice day.

By Rob Kirrage (Wommy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I live in Australia, the only dealer we have here is Argo, but, having taken the 8X8 Conquest and the 6X6 Bigfoot for demo drives, by dealer and me, my big problem is the steering. Both vehicles tended to veer to one side enough that correction was needed every 50/60 metres or so, I was told to stab the steering brake as applying steady preasure would overheat the disks. There is no way I could imagine driving 50 to 100 kilometres in this fashion. I was hoping that the Avenger would have done something about this, but with a diff and brake steer it is just more of the same. So now that leaves me with no alternative but to import a 6X6. I am very intersted in Hydrotraxx, but the noise, I downloaded the movies and they sound just like a loader operation. I really can't see myself sneaking on a pig or dingo making that much noise. The rest of the machine is everything I would want. Max 2 is out as far too small and the Max 4 doeasn't seem a lot bigger, but it would be big enough if it was stable. I will be operating in mountain type of terrain quite a bit and stabillity up and downhill is vital, what is this endo stuff they talk of, would this be on downhill of 45 degrees or less. I am older now and not into pain. There are addatives to quieten hydraulics, have any of the Hydrotraxx owners given any of these a go?
I have been pondering for months now, everytime I think I have it, somebody posts a new problem or blessing of one of the aatvs avaiable. I am not in a hurry, once I buy it it is mine and I have to source spares somehow. That is where the Argo was in front, but, the steering for me just wont do.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, I would like as many strings to my bow as possible before I decide. I can't just sell and change brands.
Regards Rob

By rves on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well we are a hydro rebuilding shop( sundstrand) and if you ask questions pretaining to noise and what type I may be able to help but I would first have to know the layout and brand of motors and pumps on the machine you are talking about as far as argo steering I guess you ran into the same problem as I did with the Argo So Here is how I feel at this point If you show Me an argo then blindfold me and sit me in a max and make me drive I would guess it was the ARGO and if you made me drive a ARGO blind folded I would think it was a MAX !!!!! THE ARGO OPERATES LIKE THE MAX LOOKS AND THE MAX OPERATES LIKE THE ARGO LOOKS this my opinion after todays driving impressions of both machines !!! I think I can make the MAX into something ( if money is not an object ) the people are much nicer at Max and the Barnes DUDE that I have talked to that seemes to have the northeast sewn up (with ARGO) has not impressed me so far matter of fact the same holds true for the people behind the machines the ARGO PEOPLE (factory and distribution NOT DEALERS) act like the MAX looks and the MAX factory act like ARGO LOOKS !!!!!!!

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Rick,
Hows its going? I hope things are better then last time we talked.

I have to say I agree with Rick 100%. Every ride we have there is someone that talks here about how hard he rides and how extreme the terrain is that he rides on and then asks like a chicken during our rides. Most people just don't know how extreme we can be with these atvs. The best way to tell which one is right for you, is to just test ride both of them.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

rves take a look on links page at the super cat, for the price i think maybe it's cloaser to perfict, i just couldent touch one in this lifetime at thouse prices,
midwest you could easely be discribeing me with the chicken coments, however is isent realy news that my ride has bin on the verge of death at most rides i have brought it to in the last few years, it's seariously undermaintained but i bring it anyway, so shoot me!
when i have some confedence in it i do give it hell, when i brake something but can still drive it yes i do drive it like a granny, but i havent the good sence to dig a hole for it, i keep asking too much from the poor thing, money is an object for me, $0.00 for new parts keeps me from maintaining it better, funny i'l blow $$$$ on gas and tolles to drag the decrepid thing to an event but not to replace bearing's chain and sprockets, and forget droping it off at a service center to have the cluches and carb looked at,

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Rob, the pulling to one side can be air pressure or difference in tire diameter. You would think tires would be exactly the same size. My machine has pulled to one side a couple times over the years. Run a tape measure around them while all aired the same. Match them side to side. I put the tall ones in front (on an argo) as that's where the weight is. This shouldn't be a problem you have to live with. Now the power it takes to turn a conquest or response might bother you at first.. it's easier as you learn the machine.

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Rob: The problem you had with your test drive in the argo was a tire problem. Your dealer needed to put a few more pounds of air in the tires on one side and it would have gone straight as an arrow.

By dakota on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I agree tire inflation problem . I have found that over the years it is harder to keep 2psi in these tires , then keeping 50 psi in my pick up tires.second if you are out in the terrain that these machines are built for you will never have this problem .as far as torque loss on a turn practice in driving helps alot . Also if you are in a situation that needs more torque to turn the machine , just slide the shift lever into low range.Now you have double the torque.I have pulled small cars out of ditches with no effort in low range. The steering brakes system is a very simple and reliable.I have 200hrs on my argo , no tranny or brake problems.Water performance yes the maxIV is faster , but take a look at the seals on the axles, my opinion the argo has less leakage problems .

By RickMoMoBigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Troy things are better than that week end.
I don't think that max is faster than argo in water.I think that they are both slow.Fast isn't the word that should be used.I've seen argo's blow past max4s .Well "blow past" isn't right.Slowly pass them,I think they was wide open on the gas.Or maybe tires are worn down.Anyway most new to these machines don't know of these things.I don't think I'm the boss with big balls and can do anything.I may check out the others or chicken out my self.But I can always get around the stuff and never been left behind.That's my choice .I haven't had this thing all that long but most of my time on mine have been with group rides.Only have a 100 hrs. on it and it's the first one I ever been in.Dont want to tear mine up just yet,like I have seen others do. I seen lots of Argo do it all and some that Max couldn't do.I one time made it threw this long crazy mud hole that no one else could get threw at Deepwater that day and as soon as I did Max's and Argo's was all over the spot trying to do it. I feel that I was lucky at that time not because mine is the best"I like them all and hope to have others machines someday" I was lucky enough to catch the wave of water in that hole at that time.I rode the wave and got enough speed to eat up the muddy hill at the end of the hole and as I pulled out a 100 gal. of mud-water came out behine me.And no one made it after me we sat there for over a hour watching and pulling people out of the hole.Wasn't enough water or right condision for anyone to make it any more that day.LUCKY I was that day.Lucky others are most days.These things all do the same stuff! Anyone who thinks they are the best and have the best is a Master In Their Own Mind.O.K. thats how I feel.Rick

By George on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Rob,I have been fairly quiet lately because I don't really enjoying tormenting the Chain Gang. I have owned most of the chain rigs and have had a lot of fun playing with them. I'm getting older now , so I would just as soon drive one than spend so much time working on them. I put a stop to the grease monkey job when I bought a Hydro-Traxx. I just fuel it up and go. When I get back home, I just fuel it up again. I can run it with half of the air out of the tires on one side and not have to sweat the "skid" to straighten it up. I can turn nice round corners just like your car. No jerking like my old argo. I turn corners simply by adding a little more power to one side or another.Nice and smooth. I can stop and back up as fast as I can pull the sticks back. It's nice when I am about to drop off into a hole or slide off into something that I don't want to get in to.
I can carry 4500 lbs and float 1000 lbs. I don't know how deep of snow I can go in but I have been playing in 3 feet of snow all week. It's funny that being "so heavy" doesn't seem to affect anything but more traction. In the deep snow I seldom ever drag bottom.
I especially like the hydrostattic drive. If I want to back out of a tight place. I simply reverse the joy sticks and do a 360. No backing up and skidding the tracks. I don't have to "skid" my tracks or wheels when I use them. The tires on one side just reverse directions and "spin"around. It makes it much easier on the wheels and tracks to not get bound up in a friction, ground ripping skid. I don't have to fight a "reverse" stick when backing up either. I can do a "complete reverse direction" before the Chain Gang can get stopped and shift into reverse.The whole hydraulic running gear is never "bound up", even when turning in soft ground. Here in Alaska we run in mud and soft muskeg.When I turn around, I stop and turn while backing up nice and smoothly, even whith a moose in the back.Never do I jerk or twist the running gear. Hydraulics have been used for 40 years with much success.
I really don't understand where the "Pricey", comes from. You get what you pay for.My Hydro-Traxx costed me about a $1000 more than an Argo.
You may find that when you load them up with accesseries, the Hydro-Traxx folks don't over-price their parts, so you may find out that it isn't much if "any" more than the others.
I keep hearing that the old heavy Hydros will sink in the mud and snow. Surely packing all of that weight must be bad. Well, rest your necks Gentlemen.I rip through mud bogs like a bull dozier, even with a 1000 lb. moose in the back.If one side starts to bog or I have to turn, I just add power to that side. I don't have to "Break Skid" and hense, don't loose momentum or bog my engine by breaking that side.Get the idea. I have full power and a fluid turning flow. In other words,I maintain full forward motion under full power with complete control and don't have to cut power to either side.
You never have seen a posting from me on the "wounded aatv" site, and I doubt if you ever will.Most of the postings on this site are folks who have some sort of a problem or those who are trying to build the "Perfect AATV".I supposed that is good and good things come out of it. I have used some of the information when buying tires etc., so I do enjoy the postings.I do admit it is hard to take sometimes when some cuts down the hydraulic rigs.I do understand that they like their chain rigs and that's good. Not everyone likes chilly beans either. Not everyone NEEDS a work horse either.If you want to run and play, by all means get one of the light-weights. If you want to go off into the bogs with your camp,wife, two dogs,and a half of a dozen of the neighbor kids for a two week camping trip, maybe a heavy-duty hydro might be to your likeing.I hate break-downs and maintenance. I haven't yet been able to break this thing with as much abuse as I can muster, in some of the worse conditions.Yeh, it is a foot wider than the argo...so far I have gone between anything I need to go between, or run over it. All the more stability on a steep side-hill.
As I have said many times, I drive Argos in my work, but I own a Hydro-Traxx.
Alaska Bubba

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

George/bubba,
How wide are the tracks on your Hydro Traxx? and what size tires did you say you have? The two things you can't change on the Hydro Traxx are the constant high pitch engine noise of a machine at 3/4 to full throttle and your top speed. Even if you have no problem going where you want to because of size, there is no way you are going to haul a Hydro Traxx in the back of a pick up and definitely not on the back of a Chevy S10 with a flatbed (that's what I haul behind my motorhome with my Max IV loaded). We all ride on smooth stuff occasionally and 12/14 MPH cuts the distance you can travel in half. Even though speed isn't usually an item, it is sometimes and there is a big difference between 12 and 25.

My guess is that you have never driven a Max - most of what you talk about just isn't true with the Max. Don't understand why you think we have to work on our machines all the time. You have to realize that a lot of what goes on here in this discussion board is from old machines, machines that have been mistreated or extreme riders. The majority of Max owners I know (can't speak for Argo) just put fuel in their machines and go, too (I assume you do routine fluids changes, filter changes and engine tune ups). Hydro Traxx doesn't really have anything over the chain machines except it is bigger and can haul more - but, unless you have much bigger than stock tires on yours, I just can't believe you don't have PSI on the ground problems. My max has the best numbers in the industry and I can get it stuck and have to maybe find another way every now and then when the snow is deep and fluffy.

By dt5428 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Oh no here we go Bubba has been awaken.LOL
Nice to here from you again must have been hibernating.

Later,Dan

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey George,

I would really like to hear more about your Hydro Traxx machine! More details about the bydraulic system, fittings, hydraulic motors, filtration, type and brand of fiitings, hoses or hard piping, etc. As much and any thing that you want to talk about in detail.

I am curious to know more of the internal details about it.

I have installed and worked on a lot of massive hydraulic stamping presses and other types of automated equipment over the years. Those being extrememly complex hydraulic systems and piping large enough to stuff a couple of bodies side by side inside with room to spare, and hydraulic cylinders bigger than a pick up truck. High, medium and low pressure systems also.

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred my man,you certainly do seem to take exception to a lot of the things I say about the Hydro-Traxx.I do believe that I run at about .62 psi on the ground. One would think that would surely sink neck deep in the crud. Sorry, it doesn't.When I hit the bogs, usually I phart along just having fun, but if it is a nasty mess I get in and give it heck.I only run a 32 hp. engine, but with the hydraulic wheel motors, I never run short of plenty of mud-slinging power.
You are probably right about the low psi of the Max. That's Kool.It probably meets your needs very well.It does not meet my needs. It is not heavy duty enough to take the big heavy loads in bad bogs and steep brush.I have sucessfully tore up a few of those light-weights. I just love them to pieces and usually I have them "in pieces"with the kind of heavy loads that I must carry.I am getting over the 61 mark. I have only been breaking up machines for 30 years. I don't like walking out 20 miles in mosquitos and grizzly bears that have attitudes.Sometimes I "can't" walk out due to a dozen bad reasons. I'm not cutting down your "livelyhood".Run and play at your heart's content, but don't make the mistake of trying to compare your little machine to the Hydro-Traxx.I can hardly believe you would even attempt to do it.It is like trying to compare a S-10 to a big Powerstroke Duely. While I am at it , no I don't drive it up into my Powerstroke. I have a few trailers that tilt. It makes for a quick unload. Most people that I run with use trailers for their snow machines and aatv's.
You made the statement that the only thing the Hydro-Traxx could do was haul more and was bigger. At least we can agree on that. It also turns sharper, floats more,drags more,and breaks down less.I have several friends who have the Max's.
Several fellers on this board have made statements that each machine has it's good points and bad points. Each machine will do the job that it is designed to do. We buy the machines that meet our needs whether for recreation or hard work.It would be nice if all would understand that. I am not a dealer,so it's not hard for me to be objective.I still tell my friends to buy the argos and Max's, but if they need a "work-horse", the Hydro could be best for that.
Look at it this way, I'm not picking on the others, I'm just bragging on the old, heavy,reliable, noisey Hydro-Traxx. You brag plenty on yours, don't be so offensive about me bragging a little too.
If you don't step on the old Dogs tail, he would probably never howl.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

You are correct though, pound for pound, there is nothing more powerfull than hydraulic force and motion control. And actually to equal the power and force of your hydraulic set up, would probably require a mechanical package at least sevaral times the size and weight of what you have on your machine! That is only one of the many advantages of using hydraulics.

I am also curious to know how well it performs for you way up in the cold climate of Alaska. Do you have to warm up the hydraulic oil or use a pre-heater to keep the oil warmed up in the extreme cold conditions? I am just picturing the hydraulic response and reaction being a bit sluggish, at least until you get the oil warmed up to operating temperature up there! I see that same sluggish response on most any piece of of equipment,when we turn off the oil rculating pumps on big equipment during the winter time down here.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Argo Conquest Guys,

I have a customer that is currently looking around at the Ago and Max machines. He has test driven my Max IV-950T a couple of times and also test drove a Conquest 8x8 some where up in northern Mchigan, at a used car lot. In any event I am spending quite a bit of time with him trying to advise him and set him up for what he really needs for his application. He is a retiree and needs a machine to get himself back into his property off road quite a few miles during winter months of deep snow.

Before he came to me, some one else where was trying to sell him on a Max Buffalo Truck, but after a couple of different discussins with him, we were able to shelf the Buffalo Truck thought and get him looking at the Max IV with big engine and tracks, and a reasonably low cost polyethylene pull behind sled for extra gear and supplies, or possibly a Conquest unit. I am confident either of these machines will work just fine for his intended purpose, although the big Conquest is probably a bit to long for what he wants to do in the dense wooded areas and so on also.

When he test drove the Conquest 8x8 unit up north, it was not under very ideal test conditions and terrain on the used car dealers lot. He only had a narrow path way on the lot to do a test drive with cars in the way on all sides, and the piled up snow banks from clearing the lot. Evidentally he drove directly to the piled up snow bank head on, which was piled up at least six feet high or so, as he beagn to climb the snow bank, he bottomed out or stuck it with one side of the wheels touching the ground, and the other side wheels off the ground. He said the wheels on the side off the ground were spinning and the side touching the ground were not driving at all. Now this was his first time in any kind of 6x6 or 8x8 machine, and had no experience of what to do to get him self unstuck, or try a different angle of approach.

My question to the experienced Argo Conquest guys is, what should he have done different to handle that situation that he was in during his test drive with the Conquest unit.

My first thought was it would have been better if he had a nice big clear area to do his test drive of that unit, and if he also had an experienced person on board with him to instruct him better. And it would have been better to have tried that with tracks installed instead of just tires.

Understand that I really dont care which brand machine he chooses to go with, I am more interested to see that he does get into a machine that will work for his application, rahter than buying a couple of snow moblies or what ever else. Also as a ritiree on a fixed income, he is being very cautious and wants help to make the proper decision. He cannot afford to make a poor decision and choice of equipment.

If it were not for the need to haul extra gear and people to the back woods cabin, I would try to get him into a smaller Max II machine with a big engine and tracks and sled, and try to save him some additional money. A smaller machine would really not be a bad idea for him, if he is willing to do a couple or three trips to haul gear.

Any input and suggestions would be great to here!

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Big Wolf,the hydraulic system is very simple. The 32 hp. engine turns a Sundstrand hydraulic pump. Each of the six wheel motors have a large heavy line that is strapped down to the frame. They also have return lines that are strapped down neatly. The 8 gallon oil tank is bolted to the inside of the back with heat disapators to protect it.The lines are under the floor board out of harms way and where they can't be moved, or abused.There is a pressure relief system to prevent any over-pressure problems.The only moving parts are the pulleys that drive the pump. The hydraulic lines look to be as big as those used on back-hoes and other heavy equipment.I can't see any way they could be broken or blow with the pressure relief system.I understand that none have failed in the last 8 years, or any of the wheel motors either.I run 27 in. high lifters or 22 in. with the tracks. I have 11 in. clearance with the tires and 8 in with the tracks. My machine weighs about 1200-1300 lbs with all of the extra goodies. I have two batteries, a 4500 lb wench that is bolted to the frame. The frame looks like it would work in a caterpiller. I haven't found anything "weak or cheap" about this rig.
I can go up to 14 mph. No that is not fast,but I run in swamps and steep grassy ridges with fallen trees hidden in the grass. Most of the time I can't see anything until I slam into it. It is easy to break equipment up here.My front and rear wheel motors have big braces to protect against hitting stumps and rocks that are hidden.
I don't have the option to walk out of the back country if I break down. One break down could get me killed . If not by a hungry grizzly, it could be by freezing. I have to have a rig that can take aweful punishment of hitting hidden stumps with a big load.Often I drive off into sink holes that are several feet deep. Of all of the rigs that I been breaking in the last 30 years, this hydro is the toughest thing I have found.
Most folks will be very happy with the smaller light-weight rigs, but I have to have something that I can't break. So far this thing is tougher than me.This rig is a work-horse and can easily pull a plow or a trailer loaded with a couple of moose.In short, if you need speed or something to bounse around on weekends with the Boys, then it isn't really for you. However, if you need something to pack your camp, pull a trailer and get you into the badlands for two weeks,then this rig has the guts and reliability to handle whatever you face.My wife goes with me and I would never put her in a place where she would be harmed.I HAVE TO HAVE RELIABILITY!!
Check it out on the web. Run the videos and make up your own mind.If you are a dealer, maybe you should look into selling them yourself.Then you may not be so thin-skinned when I brag on the Hydro-Traxx so much.Worse yet, if you pick at me or my machine, I will only brag even more:)
Bubba

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well Bubba, if you have .62 PSI on the ground, I have to eat my words. I assume that is with tracks (must be over 2 feet wide). Your machine is the new winner. Max with tracks is less than 1 PSI on the ground fully loaded so no wonder you don't have any trouble. I really don't have any problem with you liking your Hyrdo traxx, just don't like you spreading mis-information about the others, especially the max. I agree that different machines fit people's different needs - there is no "one size fits all". I've got a bobcat loader, I know just what your machine is.

Just how wide are those 27" high lifters. Don't mean to argue with you, but think your total working weight has got to be closer to 1500/1800 pounds, especially when you have tracks on. Maybe you need to recheck those PSI on the ground numbers.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks Bubba,

No, not thin skinned at all, just curious to know and hear more about your Hydro-Traxx machine. The more write ups you provide about your experience with it, the more it will help others to understand the machine even better. Please do keep providing more feed back on the subject, I would like to hear more about it, as you are willing to share it. Like I mentioned the big heavy equipment that I have worked on really can not, and should not be compared with your machine set up and application.

I have noticed people making comments about hydraulic machines, that probably do not know enough about hydraulic systems well enough, to be providing their professional opinion on the subject. I saw a couple of notes posted about the concern of bursting lines and hoses and spraying hot oil all over, and or high pressure leaks that would cut you in half, and leaking oil all over and so on. Most all of those notes posted are not reality.

The one fellow Dan that posted a breif note up above, he only works on and maintains most of the the commercial jet liners at one our local airports, and as for myself, I have built and installed some of the largest production equipment systems and plants in the world! It would probably take years of typing notes, to share some of our experiences with every one, as well as others. I personally do like to read about and hear more from others out there.

I like to hunt, fish and camp out in the remote bush also. I also want to do a couple of road trips up into Alaska some time soon.

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, sorry, it doesn't weigh that much. I believe if it is loaded with goodies it may go as high as 1300 lbs. The wheel motors weigh about 20 lbs each and the pump is 50 or 60. Hoses don't weigh that much. Once again, I never notice the weight until I put a moose in the back. Then I'm glad to have the extra power. It is a work-horse and does very well at that, not a speedster to run and bounce around in.Enjoy your machine, as for me the old heavy,slow,durable hydro works best.The aatv graveyards of Alaska are full with the scattered remains of the light-weights that are covered in old dried moose blood.
I may have been a bit conservative on the ground weight, it could have been as much as 76-80 psi,but not nearly 1.0.Makes little difference to me as it still goes in the soft stuff.
Big Wolf, I would be more than happy to help you on your trips North. there's lot's of ways to do it. Let me know. And for anyone else on this board, I live on the Kenai river. I have plenty of room to park your RV's and a handle on some good fishing.I can also point you in the direction of some fairly good moose hunting.
I can also give a good demonstration on the old hydraulic rig.
Bubba

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Oops, I failed to answer your question about how the cold affects the hydraulic rigs.Yep, it makes for some slow starts when it's 30 below. I put Arctic grade hydraulic oil in the hydro. I then put a battery heater ,with some one-half inch styrofoam in back of the tank and in front. I heat it up for a couple of hours then fire it up and go. Once fired up it will heat the oil and never has a "sluggish" problem.Arctic cold affects everything up here including me. However once the hydraulic rigs are running , it isn't a problem.If we didn't use the arctic grade oil , it could be bad. The oil I use pours at -50 below.I do hope to heck that I'm not out fooling around in that temperature.
Fred, I'm still not picking on your Max's.I'm sure they work very well for you. Some of my hunting friends use them.I wouldn't think of spreading "misinformation" about them.They are so rugged,and powerful and light afoot. I get "faint-headed" everytime one of them is mentioned.I wished a thousand times that I would have bought
"ANOTHER" one of them instead of this old heavy hydro-traxx. Sometimes I don't know what gets into my head.Every Memoral Day I even go to the aatv graveyard and stand in silence at their broken, twisted old moose blood covered bodies and weep.
Some day I may write a book about the times I had to drag them out of the swamps with my trusty trackster.Sigh.The only thing that would cause that is if some folks keep trying to compare apples and oranges, instead of just enjoying eating them .
Bubba

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

.62psi??? With no tracks? What? Did I read that right?

Sorry Bubba. I just don't see the "Indy 500 tire" or the helium balloon option on their web site!!!!

Their own web site they say this thing weighs in at 1,300lbs. Now you put, the dog, a gun, some beer, food and a few other things to survive in the weather and your going to be at 1,600 to 1,800 lbs. Even with wide tracks the Cushman trackster is only about .73 PSI. And they weigh in at under 1K.

Either myself or you may have to practice "goz-into's" some? You know, total tire width goz-into total weight.

Just messing with you guy. In defense of the HT; if you filled the oil tank with caster oil and that old bear ate you and your rig; well.......the joke would be on him!!!!

By rves on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I just got a new max 4 today and I have to say that this thing realy blows away the 8 wheel argo that one of my customers has !!! we were playing in the water and there is realy no comparison the max smokes it !! as far as hills it seems like bigger balls wins but the biggest diference is the tranny the max works so much better that it is unbelievable !!!! and power wise the smaller briggs in the max ( I hate briggs ) walks all over the kaw in the argo !!!! SO I HAVE MY FIRST TRADE IN COMMING AND ITS AN ARGO 8 WHEELER KAW POWERED !!!!!!! MY CUSTOMER SAYS THAT HIS ARGO LOOKS ALOT BETTER TOUGH so he will just have to close his eyes when he walks up to his new max !!!! is this a common change when people try both machines side by side ?????????I was very suprised !
tony

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, Its been said before, PSI on the ground dont mean crap.

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Attex, good to hear from you Well I went out in the cold dark and measured the tracks. The tracks are 86 in. long and 13 in. wide. I got down on the frozen ground and measured how much track actually was on the ground and it looked like about 80 inches.So 80 inches x 13 inches is about 1040 inches square per side. Are we OK so far? Now 2 x 1040 is about 2080 inches square.Give or take a few hundred.Now, I can load it up with the neighbor kids and dogs along with Grandpa and the goat and get the weight up to a load of a couple of thousand, but the weight is 1300 lbs.Maybe it could be as much as 1350 with all of the extra goodies on it. Just for giggles say it is in fact 1400 lbs. all loaded. So 1400 Divided by 2080 is approximately .6730769 lbs per square inch.
Dang it , it still looks like that old heavy Butt Buster still is fairly light footed. Could be because the tracks are so long. I don't really know. If I have figgered all of this out wrong, please let this old Fiber-Optic Lazer programmer know.I do get forgetful.

No I wasn't refering to .62 lbs with tires.It was tracks at 80x 2 x13 divided into 1300 which is about .625 psi.Dad blast it, there I go again!!
I will say this about that all... I have several friends that have cabins 20-30 miles back in the swamps. They use argos and Max's etc. to get into them in the winter and summer. They love their machines and they like the speed. The rigs serve them well.
I hope this sheds a little light on things. I would much rather have you cranky old rascals as a friend than an enemy.
You are right, about that old bear. I can only imagine how a caster oil-filled bear might react.
PS, you can always tell a Happy AATV rider by the mud on his teeth:)
Bubba

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Bubba you are correct, it takes a big heavy machine to haul any size of bull moose out of the bush. I would not even consider trying to load one up on my Max IV. That would require at least a few trips to haul out.

Also you have to figure, any time you have a Grizzly the size of a pick up truck pissed enough to chase you on an ATV, it really doesnt matter how fast or how heavy it is. He's going to catch you and eat you, and he will probably drag the ATV home for the kids to play with!

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

My misunderstanding Bubba. I thought you were talking about your rig without rubbers on. But I see you wear protection!!!! He he he he.

Looks like your goz-into's are correct then.

The only thing I question is the weight of your rig. Are you sure 1,300? Come on now Bubba. How can a rig from the factory weigh 1,300 without tracks, winch and the rest of goodies you have on yours weigh 1,300? They really don't say on their web site but I think 1,300 is wet. Then you have yourself and all you your gear?

I think all in all you will be at about 1.0 with you driving down the trail. (Sorry for saying this but I weigh 200 and I NEVER met a Bubba that weighed less than me!!!!!)

Hey!!! thats not too bad at all for a big M1A1 tank juice rig!!! Even according to Fred, you would be right there with a Max!!! This thing is looking better and better!!!! And if you broke a line out on the tundra you could use all of that oil to keep warm and light a rescue fire!!!! Just ribbing you on that one; been in farming for 40 years and have yet to break one.

I was up in your "ice land" about 1.5 years ago. Very beautiful up there!!! Nice people and all. Unfortunately it was a death in the family that brought me there, so needless to say the trip was not that fun.

Stay stay safe and save some salmon for me!!!

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

rves, You are nicer than I am (or maybe a better business man), but I won't take anything in on trade except for Max. I'm not a very good salesman and I know that as much trouble as I have selling the max (the best performing skid steer available in the market today and the most bang for the buck), that I would be stuck with whatever I took in forever. Just isn't enough mark-up in the max and I'm to soft hearted to steal their machines from them. I think I always allow to much on the max I do take in or just buy out right, but I don't have any trouble getting rid of the used max - seems like lots of people want a machine, just don't want to pay new machine price. Guess deep down, I don't blame them. Why pay full price if you can buy a used machine for a pittance.

Bubba, I don't think that you have to worry about any of us being enemies - we are all in our own special brotherhood of skid steer owners (yeah, even though you don't really skid steer and we all wish we could just pull the laterals back to back-up, your Hydro traxx still fits the category of being skid steer).

I personally enjoy your posting and don't think there is anything wrong with your division. It is your addition that is suspect.

The Hyrdo Traxx web site says the machine weighs 1300 pounds, now that is dry weight without fluids or a battery and with the GENERAC engine (105 lbs.). The machine holds 14 gallons of fuel and eight gallons of hydraulic oil. You said you have two batteries, a 4500 lbs winch and the 32 HP engine (I'm assuming it is the 32 HP liquid cooled Kubota diesel HT doesn't give the weight, but I'll guess 50 lbs more @ 155 - 42 Hp Nissan engine is 176 lbs). Now let's do the addition.

Base weight of machine..............1300 lbs.
difference in engine weight...........50
14 gal fuel @ 1/2 full, 8lbs / gal....56
8 gal hydraulic oil, 8lbs/ gal........64
2 batteries @ 40 lbs each.............80
winch.................................40
tracks (guess) 80 lbs each...........160
Total, 1/2 full of fuel, no cargo...1750 lbs.

What do you think?

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Bubba , just for comparison, My Max IV weight.
775 base weight
20 Kohler engine
8 o-ring chains
20 windshield
15 convertable top
85 roll cage
222 tracks (70 inches on the ground 15" wide solid, no gaps).
13 skid plates
29 solid axles
18 little garden tractor battery
6 three quarts oil (tranny and engine)
8 fuel full 5 gallons
1233 total weight without cargo
750 cargo
1983 fully loaded.

Track area is 1050 (and this is no spaces or gaps between links - 100% support) times two tracks = 2100 contact area.
1983 divided by 2100 equals .9444 fully loaded.

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,Howdy again.I am impressed with your fine ability to cipher. The numbers do say that it could weight that much. But it doesn't , sorry my old friend. I have the 32 hp Generac air cooled and do wish it was the Kubota. The tracks probably don't weight that much. The machine, with all parts on it is 1300 lbs., but I have not weighed it so I can't say for sure right now.With a tank of fuel it might go 1400 lbs., but just for giggles say it infact did go 1600 lbs with my old butt in it.1600 divided by 2080 still only makes .7692307 lbs per sq. inch.Still a light footed rig for all of the power it has.
Some day I will weigh it so you will know for sure.
I do enjoy your opinions and we do belong to a group of back woods rascals, that are a lot different than the paved road bunch. We have a lot in common and appreciate a good tussel once in a while.We need to stay united against those Tree Huggers or they will continue to make rules to shut us down.I was very impressed with the local High School up here in Kenai. They took a class out , shot a moose ,and taught the kids how to field-dress it. Then they taught them how to butcher it and pack it for the freezer.
Today they have a bunch of the women in a big survival class.We are trying to hold on to the "Back woods" ways.As you probably figured out , I am a member of P.E.T.A. or People Eating Tasty Animals.
Really though, if you are a dealer,you may want to at least offer the Hydro-Traxx to those might want a little bigger machine.I've even thought about becoming a dealer up here but I don't have time for it.
It's Kool that we can disagree and still be friends.Also, about that bear,,,I have had four broken ribs,a sucking chest wound and a 12 inch. scar on my belly from shooting a griz with an arrow. His hide is on my wall, not my hide on his.
Bubba

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Attex, the same goes for you and the rest of this board, I appreciate all of your input. Should you ever decide to visit on a vacation, let me know and I'll do what ever it takes to see that you get to catch the Kings or moose.I have room for a couple of RV's,or a place to pitch your tent. The kings run in June, the reds run in mid-July and silvers run in August.Halibut run most of the year and clams can be dug all summer.
Bubba

By rves on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I am only giving 3500 for the argo 8x8 kaw powered 430 hours but I am not working off of full list price , but after all is said and done I will have 1900$ and change in the argo and I already have 3 people interested in it at 3950$ so I don't see this being a problem at all !!! by the way I let my customer come up with the #S on his own and he is very happy with the deal !! I think trades are an important part of this business ( In the tractor business almost 70% of sales are trade generated) you know the argo looks built much better (heavier like a tractor )to me but it sure don't work very good compared to the max !!! I was going to take both lines on but now I am having second toughts about argo!!!I have to like something to be able to sell it well, and the only way I can like the argo is to look at it and not drive it
tony

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Even at 1750 lbs of machine, I still give the full grown bruin Grizzly the upper hand. OK he may need to use two paws to roll you over rather than just one paw.

By twheel on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Buba Hunt To bad I dont have a longer vaction time to spend when I come to Alaska this summer. If we had more time I'd bring our Big Foot and let you show us some back country. This is our second trip and I would love to bring it along and do some real site seeing. Maybe some day.
Tim

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Bubba, I made an error in my addition. My Max with tracks without cargo is 1251 pounds. So what you're telling me is that your Hydro Traxx only out weighs my Max by 50 pounds. Well, I guess the old max must be beefier than many think. Wonder what the Argos really weigh!

Do you have the plastic or the rubber tracks? Do you know if the rubber track is solid rubber like the max track? Do you have a top on your machine, or do you have the bare bones model? Be glad you don't have the Kubota engine. I finally found it on the Kubota engine site. Its dry weight is 242 lbs so with oil and water (they donb't say what the capacities are) it could be close to 300 pounds. When you ever get it weighed, I'll be curious to its actual weight.

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

twheel,how long are you going to be here, and where will you be?Let me know if I can be of help.
Gents, it's been good discussing psi.I guess it's all good and something to consider. I'm not really into the psi thing. I know my old Hydro is nimble-footed and doesn't sink that badly.
Today I was 10 miles back to a lake full of landlocked silvers. It was soft snow about 3 feet deep. I pulled out one snow machine, a full sized Dodge truck that was stuck, and a blown up snow machine several miles back to the road.I also caught some nice silvers.
I didn't get stuck, or break down. I did run into a few soft places that caused me to wallow a little, but not a problem.
I am done with the psi trip.Some of you have decided that it is the big thing when it comes to aatv's.It may be , but it has never been an issue for me.
There is a big silent bunch of readers out there that know what time it is.I'm sure you realize that I don't have an axe to grind, and I don't sell Hydro-Traxx's. I just drive them. I have been in the aatv's since 1970. I have owned most of them and have driven most of the rest.Once again, if you take your family into the back woods,you want them safe.All of the aatv's are fun to bounce around with.I have learned some hard lessons over the years. Some came with sore feet, mosquito bites and soaked.I have walked out of places that most would have to have been rescued.A few times I wondered if I would make it or not.I have been lucky, but I have learned to put a little common sense into the problem. I have never had to walk due to a broken Hydro-Traxx.If there was a tougher machine out there , I would have it.
I can take a ribbing and enjoy it once in a while.I'm bad at dishing it out too, but I don't joke about "safety" or reliability.Those of my friends who rib me will always get a raise out of me when it comes to what I drive.That's Kool, it gives me one more chance to brag on the Hydro, and really, that's the last thing they need if they sell something else.
Fred, my old friend, I think I'll just reach down and take off my "World Champion B-S Belt", and send it to you.I know when I'm bestered.
Bubba

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

It's nice to have a place to cuss and discuss; there's something else needs not get lost in this. That the internet links us together. I made a lot of good friends through here, riding with them. What fun it'd be to visit Bubba. Having been to Alaska in '95 for two weeks (southeastern) I promise that arguing over hardware would be way down the list of things to do. Alaska is a huge chunk of natural wildness to explore.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Bubba, I think you should keep that belt. You are much better at spinning a yarn than I am. Just a couple of more points before I drop this discussion also. I'm a little confused. The HT web site says the Generac engine is a 30 HP model (wonder when and why the dropped the engine size?). I'd venture a guess that actual HP to the ground from a current 30 HP Hydro Traxx would not be quite equal to the 25 HP Kohler in a Max (don't they say a hydraulic machine is 80% efficient?). That makes the new 27HP Kawasaki powered Max top dog in its weight class again.

How in the world did a full size Dodge pickup get into an area that only snow machines and skid steers can access? Was it equipped with a track kit?

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, no you are still getting the Belt. I am pretty good at good old B-S, but I'm not a professional. I still respect those who bester me , and I do like to sit at the feet of a real Pro.Who knows, maybe I can still pick up on some good points.
I have heard several stories on the size of that Generac, so it could be only 30 hp. As far as the Dodge, it was stuck in the ditch near the jump off place.
Fred,surely you must know that there are several "classes" of cars, trucks, boats,mules, etc.So there are also several classes of everything else to keep the confusion down.The Hydraulic machines are in a class of their own. That's not any kind of a slam to your rigs, just a simple fact.Both have there good points and bad.
I'm sorry old friend, but everytime we compare rigs it is usually a mistake by one of us.You make your livilyhood by selling your product. The last thing you really need is an old Phart huffing and puffing about the difference between the two.Most of the readers have a blast at the way you and I lock horns. I enjoy it too, but it may be to your best interest to discuss all of the fun we have running mud bogs instead who has the "Badest" dog.
Keep me on your list of those to mess-with, I like hearing from you.
Bubba

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Roger, you are right. Argueing over hard ware is futile at best. We all are a part of a special brotherhood that would rather see a pristene wilderness valley than a city.Alaska really is a big wild place where you can be in the wilderness at the city limits.I have a friend with a really decked out argo. We help each other when we need it.In the out back he goes anywhere I go,and sometimes a little farther with his wide tracks. We learned long ago not to argue religion, politics, or who has the best rig.We both have good rigs and have a ball swamp busting with them.
My friend in Homer has a Hydro-Traxx and hunts with a bunch of argo users.He also says there's not much diference between the two.Certainly not enough to discuss.
If you ever get the chance come on up. We have enough machines up here to be able to go out and play.
Bubba

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

OK Bubba, go ahead and send me that belt, but I'm gonna hang it on my trophy wall. I really don't make my living selling the Max - the only max I sell are the ones that sell themselves. BTW, you only have five years on me. I'm semi retired with a few health problems and make my real money off Wall Street. Trading a few stocks every now and then sure beats working.

Its been fun, don't forget to weigh that beast one of these days and let us know. Why don't you fill out a profile here and post a picture of your machine - we would all like to see it.

By John Schwab (Johnschwab) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Roger- Some excellent points you brought up there. We have ridden together a few times, and it was great that this kind of discussion never occurs on our rides. That is one of the reasons I like to get together with you guys. We just ride and have fun. No one cares about brands or stuff like that, but I still insist that the bratwurst and horseradish mustard ( made here in Buffalo) that I bring to the rides is better than anyones!

By Jon Hoath on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well said John, and buffalo horseradish mustard is the best I have had, how bout a mid april ride at haspin or in your neck of the woods? Jon

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Actually, John overheard me talking about his max2 to another argo guy at the February Haspin ride. He'd never seen a max. Told him about the T20 being quiet and being able to drive all the wheels.

Haspin sounds good. I'm over my first bad impression of the place. (hot, dry, dusty crowded weekend).

By shane forsythe (Shanefor1) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hi everone ,
been to buisy to talk,

eddie b,
from you'r feb14 post i see you still havn't lerned about psi,
well here goes an attempt to explain it without nocking anyone:

(please note these weights and foot size are rouhg conversions from metric and not ment to insult).

if you'r in a muddy paddock where cows have softened the ground and you sink you'r feet 1foot deep or so that's about 120pounds (you'r weight +/-)
to 30 square inches+/- (the tread area or you'r feet)

or 120lbs divided by 30 sq,inch= 4psi.
(see below)

now if you put a length of wood (or something light and strong)
on the mud 4feet wide x 6feet long you won't sink in why?
because you've spread out you'r psi, and lowered it.
humans are roughtly 8psi,
4x4 utes are 24psi,
max and argo are much lower so can cross stuff you can't on foot.

the only time a high psi is an advantage is

if you are on solid ground like granite,

or climbing a mountain that's not too steep,

in not to deep mud and you can dig to the bottom to get grip (like a 4x4 does),

or if you want to cross a fast flowing river where a normal max / argo floats and you add weights to keep you'r wheels touching the bottom,
this won't work if it's too deep or fast anyhow.
shane

By shane forsythe (Shanefor1) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

guys,
a correction, i found another situation where psi doesn't matter,
when you'r in a cold area, when the deep mud is frozen solid, then it should support heavy 6x6 /?

bubba,
does the mud freeze solid where you go?

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Shane, Do you have a machine yet, I cant think of the last time I was riding and said to myself I wish I had less psi on the ground. If you are in slop conditions that has no bottom or a bottom a ft. down both machines will be hung on the bottom. When I am stuck if magically 200 pounds vanished I would still be stuck. You are not going to float over this kind of terrain No Matter The PSI on the ground.This is an AATV 99% of time psi means nothing, the other % you are in water and have no psi on the ground..

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eddie, your above statement about 200 pounds disappearing might be true with an Argo or the other really heavyweights, but it is not true with a max (at least a max that doesn't have a lot of extras on it). I don't know how many times I have not been able to move with me in the machine, but I step out and touch the throttle and by golly, the machine can move. It happens both in going into a mucky area (allowing my machine to back out) or coming out of water (in that no man's land between water and dry land) that stymies so many. It really is evident when one has several passengers. You also must not use a tracked machine, because how much you carry makes a world of difference in how well you can go in deep fluffy snow (at least it does in a balanced machine). Why do you think fertilizer trucks have such big wide tires? PSI on the ground is everything in a machine that wants to cross snow or boggy ground.

By argoguru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

So Fred, When you step out of your machine, in those conditions, how do you with your human psi not sink up to your waist? tow strap to your belt with remote machine throttle? Every where I have rode which is alot of places minus montana, eddie is right on the money with his psi. That montana mud sure is different...

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well, Jon, I have sunk over my knees - almost to my waist (more than once, unfortunately). one seems to be able to do what is needed. I'm tall so I can still reach the throttle OK. Most of the stuff I go into, I check the depth of with one of my paddles. I don't think I have ever come across bottoms more than about three feet deep. Most are less than two feet. In gumbo, it really doesn't have to be all that deep to be a problem.

By EddieBeddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, The fertilizer trucks dont spread in wet sloppy conditions. The wide tires are to not compact the soil,not to help the truck get through.If you step out and then your machine will come out then you are not really stuck anyway.I have been on many rides and Ihave yet to see wherethe low psi Max II will go any farther than my heavier Bigfoot or my Response.I have also been riding for almost 25 years,so Ihave been there ,done it, or seen it,as to some of the younger posters that have only seen it or heard about it. Eddie

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

when i ride i wear waders because i there are times when i have stepped out of my machine sinking up to my crunch and it was very hard to reach the throttle. sometimes i made it out by staying out of the machine and sometimes i had to winch it out anyway, but i can tell you this...psi does make a difference.

where i ride in south arkansas we cover several types of gumbo mud, swamps, beaver runs, flooded timber, sandy loam creek beds, spring fed-crunch deep-muck, and your every day trail mud. i ride with my roll bar and basket on/tires at 4 psi and with my roll bar and basket off/tires at 2 psi i do see a noticable difference in how far i can go without the extra weight and the tires spread out at 2psi. it may only make a small difference in some cases but a lower psi to ground does give me an advantage.

when i first got my max i ran 5 psi in the tires because i didnt know any better. i have a sandyloam hill down by the pipline that i could not climb. no matter how hard i tried, i would only get to the top and dig in. once i learned to lower the tire pressure down to 2 psi i discovered i could climb the hill without digging in and getting stuck. i was able to beat the hill because i lowered the air pressure in the tires causing the tires to spread out. this increased the surface area where the tire meets the ground which decreased the amount of pressure put to the ground by the machine, lowering the machines psi to the ground. the lower psi to ground allowed me to go where i was not able to go before with the higher psi.

mr. eddie beddingfield,
if "psi on the ground dont mean crap" then why do they make tracks? sure there are places where a lower psi would not keep you from getting stuck, but it does give you an advantage. now, you can argue about the amount of advantage you get from a lower psi to ground number, but to say that psi to ground does not matter or "dont mean crap" is (for lack of a better word) ignorant. if you insist that "psi to ground dont mean crap" then i must insist that you are wrong.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eddie, Don't know when they fertilize in your area, but here, most everybody does it early in the year, after the spring run-off (so it doesn't all get washed away) and before things start growing. Lots of the ground is very soft. Since you have "been there and done that" I guess I am wasting my time, but, I didn't say I was stuck, I said the machine wouldn't move with me in it. You made the comment about never wishing you had less PSI on the ground (I wish that every time I have to get out in the muck). I will have to agree with you that with your machine/s, it probably wouldn't matter and that your getting out won't make any difference - you would still be stuck. Maybe you argo folks should back into your troublesome areas - then when you can't go, getting out might make it so you aren't really stuck either.

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I think the manure gets spread much thicker in certain areas of Montana!

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry, Because tracks are for snow Therefore there is no psi on the ground ,it would be psi on the snow. You guys can believe what you want but I stick by what I say . It dont mean crap.Lowering your tires wont do much with no sidewall.Fred the farmers around here dont want thier field tore up ,spreader trucks are not out there to mud run.Come on a real ride and I will show you it dont mean crap............

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The local dairy farmers up here in Southern Michigan will spread liquified manure year round just so they can get ride of it. Its great fertilizer for the fields and crops.

A few years ago during the second day of opening season for the gun deer hunting, I was sitting in my dads old hunting blind on the fence row of the cut corn field out on the farm. I was having a great time watching the deer run back and forth about half the day, when the local dairy farmer that leases the farm to plant crops, showed up to spread liquified manure on the fields. I did not think much about it because the deer do not seem to mind the farm equipment operatinjg in their proximity. When the tractor and trailer came by the blind spraying the manure, then it became very apparent just how bad the smell was, it was so bad that it was gagging me, and I also noticed the deer would not even cross over into the same field being sprayed, they would run up the spray line and put on the brakes when they smelled it.

Any way, I had to vacate the shelter and make my way for the house to try and get away from it. I had to cross over a very heavily sprayed area to get out of there, while I was crossing over, I slipped and fell right into the liquified manure. At this point I got back up, soaked with manure, gagging even worse, and I had about a mile to go on foot back up to the house.

This was a point in time that I wish I had 4 foot by 8 foot sheets of plywood strapped to my feet, so I could have distributed my weight over a larger area and reduced my ground P.S.I., and had better traction to go across that liquified manure muck.

Hope every one enjoyed the story and experience!

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eddie I dont mean to get in the middle of this, however, you are no correct in stating that tracks do nothing for you in mud and or snow. A solid rubber track with no holes or spacing in it, will absolutely distribute the weight of any type of tracked machine, and it does provide the similar floatation ability to travel over both mud and snow. A person does not need to attend a ride event to know that this indeed does work. I have personally watched a tracked machine cross a couple of swamps on my property that would eat a man alive! It did avoid a couple of real bad bottom less silty mud holes, only because I told him to avoid them in case of trouble. It would not have been possible to even step out of the machine in those real bad spots, because the depth of the silty mud was over my head, and I am over six feet tall.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, no offence, but I have to say this, YOu have a max, don't critisize the other machines about thier psi on the ground etc, etc. It matters, in some cases more than others. Ok, you think that the max is the better vehicle, we get the point. Some think the other way. Why does it always have to turn into a max vs argo. They are different machiens, max better in some ways, argo in others ---END OF STORY

Stop the max vs argo crap already. Go out and ride side by side and compare there. Then you can get out all your opinions and replace them with hard facts

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry , W here are you from Montana ?

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eddie,Oh how I hate to get back into this PSI thing. I was just done with being "GUMMED" by a bunch of old dogs for a week on all of the reasons why my old Hydro couldn't go anyhere that the ground was soft. Well heck, it does and does it very well. WHY? Maybe this will help... although it surely will start another round of expert opinions. It seems that manure gets spread every day of the year, and it doesn't need to be on the pastures.
I've been reading all of the ideas why some machines go better than others.The one writer that let the air out of his tires was convinced that psi was every thing.He hit the nail on the head, but it wasn't necessarily the flotation that let him climb the sandy hill.PSI=FLOTATION.I also let the air out of my tires when I can't climb a steep grade on an icey road.I let the air out of my tires when I get stuck in a mud hole in my big 4x4 truck.When I first came to Alaska 30 years ago, I had big 12 inch wide tires on my truck and I could hardly even drive it on the ice. WHY, too much FLOTATION and not enough TRACTION.That is why the farmers put a liquid in their tractor tires. TRACTION.Now everyone jump on that...hurry! That is why my old Hydro goes so good in the soft stuff.TRACTION!I have cleats made out of Channel Aluminum on each track link.I have 39 cleats on each track. My tracks don't spin when I'm in mud or snow. Now some one will jump up and say that if I spun a track, then down I go. Well, I just don't spin much except in snow and I have enough ground clearence and "SENSE" to pull up when I feel a slip coming on and simply back out.Every one argues the PSI so much that it has rotted. In my opinion, PSI has been beat to death and it's really not the ONLY reason we go in the muck or not.I go over the muck. I don't stand around long enough to sink to my "crunch" as some one said.I always look over the mud hole before jumping into it head first. That way I will see if I have something handy to winch out if I do sink too deep. If I have a tree or good deadman, I will ease in and give it the cobbs. I don't lay around like an old hog and see how much crud I can get on me.My old Hydro has a lot of "traction" gentlemen, and as long as it does, I go some aweful places.TRACTION is the reason we put cleats on our tracks. Traction is the reason we run those big deep lug tires. Traction is why and how we get across the bad places. Yeah, PSI is Kool because without FLOTATION we would go NO WHERE.Without traction, we can set on the top and spin our wheels.Having said all of that, don't give all of the credit to PSI, when TRACTION has at least as much to do with how good we mud waller or not.
As I have said many times,I only have 30 years in the mud getting stuck. I sure some of you experts will jump up and get red in the face and scream your lungs out. Eddie, I hated to get into this again, but one of them made a statement about you that kind of ticked me off.
Bubba

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eddie and others, Some of us have filled out a profile. Under utilities on the left side of the 6x6 discussion board there is a link marked "profile". Terry has filled one out and if you click on the red underlined name at the top of each post it will take you to the profile or give you an email form. Many writers like you don't have a profile, just an email address - so when you click on your red name you just get an email form, but if you click on Terry's name, you will see his profile and where he lives. There is also an owners registry in another spot on this site that people should fill out. If we truly want to be friends, those who do should quit hiding behind a screen name. Fill out a profile and the owners registry so we know a little bit about you. You can put a picture of your machine (or whatever you like) and be a part of the real world.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i must concurr with fred, this is an exelent opertunity to tighten our comunity, all thats needed to help us all feal like comrads is knowing just a liitle more about each other, i have 2 profiles because i lost controle over 1 of them a few years ago and made a new one, when ritchard clark moved some of the site to a new server i got the old profile to work again and yes each has photos and info about me, this way wether someone clicks an old post or new they can get info ect,,i sugest each of us keeps a piece of tape on our keybords with passwords on them so we can keep updateing our profiles and owner registry, i sometimes forget them and canot upkeep mine LOL

By Jon Hoath on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well said Bubba, Someone else besides eddie who knows what they are talking about. Jon

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, Get off the discussion board long enough and you will find me in the owners registry.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey bear hunting bubba,
did i say something to get your undergarments in a wad? best i can tell from your post, i believe you to think i called eddie ignorant. i used the word ignorant to discribe the act of stating the quote in question, not to describe his person.

in your post you said i was convinced that psi was everything. how in the world did you come to that conclusion? i clearly stated that it makes a difference, and at times, only a small one.

and what did you mean by "He hit the nail on the head, but it wasn't necessarily the flotation that let him climb the sandy hill."
where did i say floatation got me up the hill?

even though i have trouble understanding where you come up with this stuff, i do agree with your statement about traction.
psi to ground, floatation and traction are all important factors in traversing muck, ice or any other terrain. each type of terrain requires a different combination of the three to successfully traverse it, but i doubt i would go so far as to say one equals the other(psi=floation).

please, feel free to refer to me as terry, not "The one writer" or "some one" or "one of them". and if you do own a hydro, please, fill out a profile and post a pic. i would like to see it, i enjoy seeing different aatvs that belong to others. i seriously doubt anyone will hunt you down to run over your toes with their 6 wheeler just because you put a pic and some information in your profile.

any kid from a 4-wheeler forum can waltz over, put bogus information in the owner registry, if he or she chooses, and start posting nonsence. without a profile/pic, for all we know, you could be a kid in the 8th grade with only a summer of experience in the backyard on grandfathers three wheeler.

for the real aatv owners that are only in the owner registry, whats stopping you from filling out a profile and posting a pic of your aatv?

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry, because it is the same info as the registry,and im sure you dont want to see a couple of high psi Argo,s .

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

eddie,
i smiled when i read your post asking me if i was from montana. just because i agree with fred on a few things doesnt mean i dont like to see pictures of members argos. is it going to kill you to fill out a profile and post a picture for us to see? if i say "pretty please with sugar on top" will it change your mind?

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well Guys,

I have tried several times to upload a photo of my machine, and it will not upload onto the Route 6x6 site. The only thing I get is errors at every attempt to do it.

I also did create a user profile at one point a a month or so ago, but I find it much quicker and easier to just type a user name and post messages directly, rather than going through the user profile way! For me it really does not make much difference either way, I know who I am and I do try to share a good amount of information about my self with others.

At this point in time, I do not remember the exact typed sequence for my user I.D., and I do not even remeber my password and longer either. I have so many pass words and user I.D. for every thing that it would require three full pages to list them all, just to keep track of.

If some one wants to know more about me personally, just ask! I did finally add myself to the user registry, but I still could not upload a photo of my machine, the same type error occurs when I tried. So much for the photo, no big deal!

My "screen name" is actually my given native indian name, and that is what my close personal friends do refer to me as. My hunting and fishing partner does call me much worse names on occassion, but I deal with him in my own way.

It is currently winter time and I get board just sitting around, so I log on to read postings on Route 6x6 and converse with you guys on occassion. Once spring, summer, and fall arrive again, I will be busy doing the things Out-Of-Doors that I like to do, and probably will not log on to Route 6x6 forums much if at all.

One last item, you have to be aware of how much personal information you do decide to share with people on public forums, because there is always some hacker lurking out there, just waiting to scoop up any information they can about you.

By shane forsythe (Shanefor1) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

eddie,
no i don't yet , getting one at end of the year.

if argo and max are getting bogged that just means that there isn'ta machine that has a low enough psi to stop getting bogged.

maybe the manufacturers should put duels.

By rves on Unrecorded Date: Edit

max vs argo ??????????? I had both a bigfoot and a max 4 here 03s for the weekend to compare I could not get in the water cause we had a cold spell and there was to much ice !! so we rode side by side and played follow the leader !! the new max is made much better then the old ones and the flex that is engineered into the frame gave it a big advantage in traction!!! quality seems equal !! and it used to be that the argo was way better ! max has come a long way since 97 and argo SEEms to have become complacent Anyways we could not find anything that the argo could do as well as the max and the max seems much easier to maintain and work on !!!! so can anyone tell me what the argo is better at so I can test further ??????? new vs new
thanks tony

By dakota on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well spoken for a sales person.The best product on the market is the one I sell.Well you may have gotten one poor soul to trade in his argo at a loss , but you will not get them all.

By rves on Unrecorded Date: Edit

dakota I don't think I want them all!!!! I am new to this market and I am trying to figure it out I am sure they all suck when they are broken
and I don't think I have any brand loyalty yet. I just want solid facts as to which is better at what ??? then I will test for myself at that funtion and write in my findings !! right now I have a feeling that most people against the max are speaking of older inferior units and not current production ???????? but if I am missing something let me know ???? would anyone be interested in a hydro retrofit kit for a max if we were to develope one !!???
thanks tony

By dt5428 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I hear all this stuff about we need more people driving aatv's but yesterday I went to the outdoorarama in Novi,Michigan can anyone tell me why I did not see a max,argo or any other type of amphibious unit there.I was expecting to check out the new Avenger but that did not happen.Why would no one take avantage of this great chance to show off these things I know it takes up your time but if the public does not get informed about how versitle the aatv's are then don't cry about the quads taking over because they had a few displays with salesmen and a few static displays.The only reason I could see for not setting up at the show would be cost but if that is it maybe the Manufactors should help foot the bill.Oh well just wanted to share this with you.

Later,Dan

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

dt5428,
The cost is the main reason. Neither ODG or RI will put out any money for dealer to do shows. I try to do 3 shows a year and the ave prices per show cost me about $2500. Most show booths are around $450 to $600 per booth. I rent out 4 booths just so I have enough room for 3 atv's and a table to sell parts and a tv to show tapes of the Max in action. I don't know what that show would cost, but I know they are not cheap and its not like you can sell 2 or 3 at the the show, which is needed to just break even. I do them mainly as a tax deduction, and to get the name out in hopes that someday in the future someone will remember me and then call.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hello Dan,

Well I would have really liked to been set up at that show, even with one booth off in the back fourty some where, with a Max machine. A single booth cost for that show was $750 to $1000, plus labor set up expenses I do believe. From where I am sitting right now and my confort level of investing in this Max dealer venture, It would have only put me even further to the negative in the hole. So I have chosen to due the much smaller club type shows for much less cost.

At this point in time, I have sold one Max IV-950T machine fully loaded and tracked, and I got absolutely laid on the deal. That is a whole story in itself, and would take me pages to talk about it completely. In a nut shell I sold the machine, took in the customers deposit, placed his order with the factory, he freaked out on me, because he was paranoid to the point of being unstable, called the factory and freaked out with them, I shut the deal off because he would not pay me the balance owed, and I referred him to the factory to finish the deal, and he walked away with his machine at dealer cost across the board. He is picking up his new machine from the factory today. I got nothing out of it period! I was ok with not getting any thing out of the deal, but him getting dealer cost on every thing has not settled well with me yet! This guy did not treat me well at all, and I bent over back wards to set him up right, and spent over two weeks and countless hours and demo rides, until he was completely comfortable with his choices, and he was getting a very nice deal from me also. The factory says they will take care of me on the next machine, but I do not even really care about that right now.

Also from allowing that customer to demo ride my new machine, I have one bent axle and one dented in rim, of which I will have to fix my self. So it looks like the demo ride thing is going to come to an end real quick now! Not real sure how the axle got bent other than him running over a couple of railroad ties buried in the snow, at high speed. I also have the added bearing cages and bearings installed on my machine.

I am seeing a lot of traffic coming to me with my Ad flier campaign which is great. Although now with the bitter taste in my mouth, I have decided to shut down my next phase multi magazine advertising campaign and I may or may not shut off my upcoming shows. I was originally thinking long term, now it has been shortened up dramatically for the time being any way.

I was approached and asked to do a series of three months of Out-Of Doors TV shows, with one of our local outdoors personalities, and use and talk about the Max products on the shows. I am currently thinking about just passing on that offer.

Today I did recieve a phone call from a local business man and outdoorsman looking for two machines, and he is asking me to walk him through the Max products and what I know about the Argo products. I may just end up referring him onto the Argo dealer to buy two of those new Argo Conquesting Avengers.

My dealership Motown will stay around, however, what products I ultimately end up reperesenting is yet to be seen. I will probably approach and talk with the Orr's and the Durham's, at some point in time in the very near future.

By Preston on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Bigwolf

Aren't you a new dealership? The company
did this to you fast didn't they? I agree I would
not spend any more money or effort of their stuff,
also keep in mind the "other" company will do it to you too.
As their distributers WILL sell direct, by passing the dealers.

I guess this is one of the many reasons these companys stay small
they do not protect their dealers. therefore dealers like you get tired
of it and quit. I do not blame you as I would stop too. Preston

By Dave Beckstead on Unrecorded Date: Edit

We're hoping to get some user information on the new MAX II, 23hp performance. The 18hp MAX II I have,powers out on steep mountain terrain, especially when I have a passenger. Don't get me wrong, it's still an awsome machine but, in high alts especially with a passenger aboard, lacks what is needed. If I hook onto an immovable object, although it pulls hard, does not have the power to spin the wheels. I was hoping the 23hp version would fulfill my needs. Is there anyone out there who has this new machine who could tell me their experience as far hp and overall performance is concerned?
Thanks.

By Jon Hoath on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dan,
My distributor did a show around detroit 2 or 3 weeks ago, and we are also doing the deer and turkey expo at the lansing civic center the last weekend of march. We do alot of shows throughout the state and it is very costly, and generally sales are made weeks most of the time months after the shows. If you buy a woods and water or michigan auto B magazine and look at our advertisments in their, our shows are always put on the ad.
Big Wolf,
If these people need info on the avenger, I can send you some to give to them or can answer any questions. You can call me on my cell also at 517-617-6474 and we can talk business then.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hello Jon,

I will give you a call tommorrow some time. I am headed out the door right now for a retirement party for a friend, and will be back late.

This fellow and his buddy are real big guys, and they may indeed need a couple of Avengers to handle them and their gear. I would have no hesitation hooking them up with you guys if I am unable to outfit them correctly. In fact I think it only makes sense for them to actually see and try out both brands. Jon if you have an Avenger on hand it would help alot if they can see one and sit in one. This fellow ownes and operates a tackle and bait shop, and another business here locally, and they are asking for a multi machine type deal.

They will be coming over in the morning, so let me find out more about them, and see how they want to proceed. They sound serious and the high end machines pricing does not seem to phase them much, other than wanting a package type deal.

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Gary (Big Wolf), sorry to hear you had a bad experience your first time around. I had a "lost sale" like I posted before but not nearly as bad as your situation. I had nothing more than a little phone time invested, but was ticked when the guy bought for dealer cost like your customer did. I think RI will do you right on the parts you need to fix your axle. I would like to hear details of why the deal went south, if you want to email me sometime.
I've been a dealer for about eight months now. Nothing is perfect so there have been a few bumps in the road, but I really have nothing but good things to say about the whole business. The guys I deal with at the factory are awesome and I love the 6x6 experience to begin with. Sales are slow but they are there. I'm doing a two to four stroke engine conversion for a customer in Iowa right now and it's tons of fun. I'm more excited about it than he is and it's his machine!

As others have said, dealer shows are rarely profitable and done mostly for 'fun'. I am doing at least one this year. I'll be at the Missouri Deer Classic on March 13-14. Richard posted the info on the Events page of Route 6x6. It will cost me over $200 just for my space and that is getting off cheap. I still have to attend the booth all day for two days, transport the machines, set up the display, and deal with all the headaches that come along with doing these things. I am 99.9% sure I will not profit from all this. One thing is for sure, I'll get to stand around and shoot the bull about Max ATVs all day and that is what it's all about!

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dave Beckstead, I just got a 23hp Max IV and this is the first time I got a chance to try the new Kohler. I haven't got to try it in a II yet, but I'll share my experience with each engine and model. I had an 18hp II and this is a very capable and powerful machine here in Missouri, at lower elevation. I had a Max IV 18hp to compare it to, and this is probably similar to what your 18hp II is like in the mountains. The 18hp IV is sufficent and gets the job done, but it is nothing to brag about. I gave my first demo ride in the 23hp Max IV a short time ago and it is a whole new beast. The accellerator pump on the carb is what makes it a great engine. It has plenty of power for the IV with 26" tires and roll cage so I can only imagine how mean it would be in the little II with 22" tires. Briggs makes a solid engine but it will be hard for me to go back after running the Kohler. I love the response of the accellerator pump (zero throttle lag) and build quality is ten times greater than the Briggs.

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry my man, I couldn't help but notice that you have once again misunderstood my comments. Let me say it again...PSI=Flotation.PSI is how much pressure on the ground by a tire or track per square inch of space.Flotation is also how much surface pressure that is on the ground by your foot , tire or track or rear end if you are sitting on the ground. That is what I meant. If you choose to disagree with that concept, we probably won't agree on anything else either.This is your statement about the tire pressure and PSI that you wrote."when i first got my max i ran 5 psi in the tires because i didnt know any better. i have a sandyloam hill down by the pipline that i could not climb. no matter how hard i tried, i would only get to the top and dig in. once i learned to lower the tire pressure down to 2 psi i discovered i could climb the hill without digging in and getting stuck. i was able to beat the hill because i lowered the air pressure in the tires causing the tires to spread out. this increased the surface area where the tire meets the ground which decreased the amount of pressure put to the ground by the machine, lowering the machines psi to the ground. the lower psi to ground allowed me to go where i was not able to go before with the higher psi."
What I saw was that by lowering the tire pressure, you did in fact lower the PSI, but more importantly you "softened up the tread" and allowed your tires to grip the ground causing much more "Traction...Gripping" power. I do it all of the time and have done it for many years.
That's all I meant.I have a hard time understanding why you don't see that but it's America and you are free to believe what you like.
By the way ,I am an 8 year old kid that don't even own an aatv or have a driving lic.I really had you guys going,didn't I:)
Well, when I get time I'll send you some pic's of my toy aatv, meanwhile I need to be caneing it down to get my social security check.
Bubba

By dt5428 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Gary and Big Wolf and any other dealers out there have you considered talking to the people who run these indoor events and ask them about setting up a display outside with a price break.Just a thought you might save some money and be able to set up some kind of demonstration in the parking lot but not sure if they would let you do that.

Later,Dan

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Its not a that big of a deal for me at ths point in time. The factory did what they had to do to salvage a sale out of it. The only thing that rubbed me wrong was hearing that he got dealer cost after all that.

I still think the R.I. factory guys are just outstanding to deal with and they have some very nice products to offer. I have no doubt they will do some thing for me on later deals. I knew this kind of thing happened on occasion going into this deal, and that is the reason that I negotiated and limited my personal cash exposure.

I am seeing plenty of interest and traffic from the Ad flier coampaign and referrals from the factory. I will however, limit the type and amount of advertising that I do, because of cost. Advertising is like a double edged sword!

I really enjoy all of the local guys with existing machines, that have been contacting me to talk and need assitance.

I probably will at some point talk with our local Argo distributors, so that I will be able to offer people more solutions. I figure they could use some help covering this area better any way. And I would like to be able to refer people on to dealers like Jon Hoath and, when I see cases of poeple in need of the larger capacity Argo machines. I do notice that people tend to become more comfortable and do listen more, when you talk about some of the good things and comparisons between brands. Its seems to instill a confidence that they will do just fine with either brand that they finally choose to go with. I wish that I could offer Hydro-Trax and Amphibitruck machines also, but you have grow things slowly and in a controlled manner.

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dave, I have a Max II with the 23hp as a demo and it has much more power then the 18 hp. I will be honest, I have only taken it out ones for a 1/2 day during the ride and was shocked that I had to be care going up mud hills because if I gave it to much gas, I would spin all the tires. So far, I am very impressed with the way it performs.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

big wolf, ooh for god's sake do the tv showes!

By David Beckstead on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks guys, sounds like the extra h.p.may just be the trick I need, thanks.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The Max II with the 23 horse power Kohler engine has a great horse power to weight ratio. It should handle the mountains just fine. If you intend to tow a small pull behind trailer loaded with gear and also load down your Machine with gear, and go climb the mountains, just remember what you take up, must come back down. The coming back down part of the trip, towing and hauling heavy loads would be very exciting to say the least.

If there is not some good gradual established trails going up and down, you may want to consider dropping the trailer and heavy weight down at a lower elevation, and call that base camp, and then take the machine and day pack gear up to the higher elevations on a daily basis.

By Rob Kirrage (Wommy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

All this about sand and PSI and lower tyre pressure, I am not as yet a driver of aatv, but working on it.
I am a long time driver in the outback of Australia in 4x4, 50 years, so I do know a bit about flotaion, and traction. So the sand and soft ground trick to lower tyre pressures is real and does work, but although it is in a way psi doing the job, what really happens is that by lowering pressure you reduce the amount of hill in front of the tyre, so it doesn,t have to rise first to get to roll, that is why you get up the hill. But, in other types of terrain, low psi is an enemy by reducing traction, so my thoughts are that both camps win, at different times in different situations, regards Rob

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey you old bear hunter,
i just about gave up on you.

i dont like to use the term "floatation" when talking about land, i like to use the terms "lower psi" and "traction".

when talking about building pontoons or floats for crossing bodies of water, then i think about "flotation".

it sounds funny to say "i need less psi to cross the lake", or "i need more floatation to get up the hill".

we both know how lower psi, floatation, and traction work. i just disagree with the way you used the word floatation.

how about we agree on talking about something else....like your hydro pictures your going to post, or send to me so i can post them for you. how about a pic of you, in your hydro at the mail box pulling out your check? yea, that would be cool! ill even post a pic of me at my mail box in my max pulling out my bills. how about it bubba?

By Bubba Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry, you old phart, I'll send pics when I get time to take some new ones. Just got a digital camera, so you'll get a couple of shots.Some of the "good old boys" think I may be an 8 year old kid. I wish I was sometimes.I have found that getting old is "relative" to "stiff".When you get up in the morning the things that are "supposed to be stiff", ain't quite so stiff any more. And the things that are NOT supposed to be stiff, sometimes are.That was a quote from old Bubba, and it was free.
If the word "floatation" is all we disagree about, we probably could be friends.
You have to notice that I didn't kick old Fred when he was getting kicked. I kind of like that old Gasser, and I look over some of his orneryness because I have a tad of that myself.
We all are a bunch of back-woods rascals that seem to enjoy banging heads once in a while.
Hey Big Wolf, thanks for the plug on the Hydros, you are a learned man:)
Here is one more quote from old Bubba..."When I was young, all I could think about was chasing women, now about all I can do is "think" about chasing women".That one was free too.
I took two long snow trips this week with my argo running pardner.We found a pack of wolves that we are going to deal with, also caught some nice fish.
Well, so much for now, watch out for those little Floatations running around, and should you see one, put some PSI on their little necks.
Bubba

By Dan MacDonald on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have been interested in 6X6's for a couple of years. I am getting close to purchasing one. I am going to use the machine for hunting, fishing, woodlot work, plowing, and transport. It needs to carry 2 persons and gear for above activities. I am looking at the Argo Bigfoot or the high end MaxII. I have several questions for you old time owners. How important is clearance on these machines (22" to 26" tires)? What are the advantages/disadvantages for the placement of the motor (rear or front) for power, in the water, towing, traction, and plowing? Do these machines really need a skid plate, does it really save the body? I like the Argo tracks much more than the Max tracks, can you put the Argo tracks on the Max II machine? Thank you in advance for any insite you can give me.
Dan

By George Hunt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dan,with all of the things you want to do, it sounds like you need a Hydro Traxx. You may pay a little more, but the hydraulics are well worth it.It does all of the above including pulls a plow or stumps. I have the 27 inch high lifters and almost a foot of ground clearance.It took on everything this big swampy, frozen place could offer and came through every test.It floats 1000 lbs, and carrys 4500 lbs. I can easily carry one moose and pull another.
I have owned some of the others, and I wish I had spent the money in the first place.I just wish I had the money that I put into the others before I learned the lessons.Oh well, hind sight is always 20-20.Just trying to save you some money in the long run. If you are young, you can probably afford to work your way up the line. If not, do look into the Hydro Traxx, and NO, I'm not a dealer. I'm just a very satisfied owner.
Alaska Bubba

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Bubba,

You have just about got me talked into a Hydro Traxx machine. I was checking them out on their web site this evening. Looks like a very robust peice of equipment. This is definately a leap beyond being a tinker toy! I like the thought of their largest horse power turbo deisel engine, I beleive it is the Kubota 42 HP Turbo diesel. Their breif video clips on line shows that machine running very fast, with the turbo diesel engine package.

For what ever reason they do not show the same weight rating data that you are saying it is capable of hauling on board and towing. I do trust what you saying about your machine, and I am also thinking that turbo diesel would also handle towing just about any thing.

I figure if you are able to deal with running that hydraulic machine way up there in Alaska during the winter, then it should work fine for me down here in the winter time.

Not sure when I would buy one of these, but you got me thinking about it real hard now!

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Dan,

I read your note about wanting to know more information in comparing the Max II machine to a Bigfoot machine. The best thing that you can do is to get out there and check these machines out for your self, and also test drive them if possible. You have listed quite a shopping list of wants and needs for a machine.

The Max II actually has little to no cargo space as compared to any Argo. You would probably have to tow a small polyethylene type ATV trailer or sled behind it, depending on how much gear your are talking about.

I always suggest to get the largest horse power engine available in any machine. That's my choice though, I always like to know that I have enough horse power there when I need it. Again if it was my choice, and the option was available, I would drop a V-8 turbo diesel in my machines.

More ground clearance is always better in any machine, when you run just wheels. Again if it was my choice, and the option was available, I would prefer to have the largest set of tires even with tracks, for increased ground clearance, although it is not always needed when you run tracks.

Engine placement in these machines is not really a major concern with respect to over all machine balance and performance for the items that you have listed. Most all of these type machines have a good weight balance, and the drive trains are set up for very good power.

Skid plates is always a nice feature to add if available, although it is debatable if they are really that usefull or not. If you do plan to run your machine in boulder and very abrasive rocky or stumpy terrain, then it would be a good chioce to have skid plates.

No you cannot just buy a set of Argo brand tracks and put them on a Max machine, with out macking some form of custom modification to the tracks or the machine set up. You can however, buy a set of Tru Trax brand tracks and install them on the Max machines. The Tru Trax brand is similar in design and materials as the Argo brand tracks, if that is waht you prefer to have. You will still need the wheel spacers and added axle support brackets, and the added outer bearing cages for added axle support.

I am not sure if your preference for a hinge and pin type plastic track versus the R.I./Max rubber tracks is because of appearance or concern about performance! If you are concerned about the durability and performance of the rubber tracks, you really have nothing to be afraid of. The R.I./Max brand rubber tracks are actually made using only the finest materials in my opinion, and they are really tuff tracks. The rubber tracks that R.I. uses are made by the Kimpex Company, and they are a Canadian based company. Kimpex makes one of the finest rubber tracks in the world. Kimpex is a Kevlar reinforced track, and latest stuff available today is a one piece design, so there are no metal track splices at all. The side mounted wheel guides on the R.I. tracks are cast aluminum and are riveted permanantely in place. If you desire more traction for what ever reason, you can also add full width steel snow mobile cleats to the rubber tracks. You can also add cleats on the plastic tracks, although I am not sure if you can use a full width type or not.

The two items that you listed "wood lot work and plowing", I am assuming that you mean cutting and hauling wood to and from a wood lot, and not actually trying to pull stumps out of the ground. If your intention is to pull stumps out of the ground, then I do not recommend any other machine for that type of work, other than a heavy duty tractor, or an F-350 Super Duty pick up truck, or possibly the Hydro Traxx machine with a big turbo diesel engine for pulling stumps. I would not recommend and type of machine that has a chain and sprocket drive train for that type of work period!

And the other item "plowing", I am assuming that you mean general push plowing of snow or light dirt and relatively light gravel, and not actually plowing soil like a tractor plow would be used for. You should not have any problem using them for general push plowing, some extra horse power is always nice to have for that purpose. You should not use these machine for farm plowing applications to trun soil over, a farm tractor is better suited for that purpose.

Hope this anwers some of your questions! Again you need to get out there and check out machines in person.

By chris welch (Argonut) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I canot help but notice that most of the people who defend max's are dealers and most of the argo enthusiasts are owners (slight observation)

By Motown's (Bigwolf) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Interesting observation, not sure if that is indeed the case or not!

The defending of brands seems to be some what balanced in my observation, irregardless of who is doing the defending. You do seem to see lines drawn and sides taken, and that is really to bad! I say this because what it does is hinder continuous improvement and the evolution of products. Of course putting aside the hard headedness and ignorance of the respective factories and their reluctance to change.

If you are going to be a dealer and sell products, it does help to have a passion for and beleive in the products that you are selling. With out that passion and belief, you probably would not be very convincing or successfull as a salesman or a representative for that product!

Both of these brands have their issues and problems, both past and present history, and some people just do not want to talk about them or admit that they have and do exist for what ever reason.

The biggest issue and hinderance to either of these brands is the life cycle cost to maintain and repair the drive trains. I do not think that I have saw any one advising or warning a new perspective buyer about how quickly the drive trains will wear out, and how much it will cost to repalce and reapir bearings, chain and sprockets on a routine basis. That cost is staggering to say the least, even if you do your own work and labor. The cost of replacement parts alone is enough to turn off any new buyer, if he or she is properly informed about it!

I pose a challenge to any and all dealers of any brand machine, or the respective factories, to create a new discussion topic and call it "Life Cycle Cost of an AATV", and provide the some real life data for this subject topic. Under this topis there should be a complete list of all major machine components and their actual expected usefull life. The list should also include the cost to repalce the worn out components, and also include as a seperate break down line item what the estimated labor hours and labor cost for repairs would be.

I do not seriously expect that any one will do this, because the facts would probably make sales of these machines even worse!

I do plan to continue using these products, even though the intitial purchase cost and routine maintanance cost is way to much. I do not know of any thing else that will go through the real bad terrain as well as these machine do!

By liflod (Liflod) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Have you ever seen a "life cycle cost" posted by Honda , Kawasaki, Suzuki , or any other "ATV"?

I remember listening to a conversation between a customer and parts guy at the shop where I get old snowmobile parts. The poor customer just bent a rear axle on his 3 month old quad. No problem , a new rear axle is just a little bit over $300.00. On my old Attex, I can just about replace all of my axles, chains and bearings for $300.00!!!!
How about the warranty offered with a new Max or Argo compared to a quad? I think the quad warranty is 90 days tops. At least with a new amphib there is a 1 year warranty on the machine and usually 2 years on the engine.
My 30 year old machine is still going strong with zero factory or dealer support.
I'm not sure where your idea of high life cycle cost is coming from.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Chris, The most vocal Max advocates are users, some of who also became dealers. If one hasn't used a Max personally for a year or two, he can't know what the machine is capable of. I, for one, used a Max II in my business and for recreation for almost a year before I actively became a dealer (I probably have close to 1000 hours of Max use under my belt).

What appears odd to me is that I don't see the problems that others talk about. The majority of my max education has come from refurbishing old machines and machines that were rode hard and put away wet. The cost of ownership to my customers is very reasonable (several have taken the time to tell me that). Maybe it is because I explain the machine's weak points to prospective customers and take at least an hour to go over how to drive and to service their machine when the new owner takes delivery. I've said it before and I will until I am six feet under: If one will use reason in the operation of, do routine preventative maintenance, and store the machine inside or under a good cover, cost of ownership of a Max is very low. If one rams and jams, never adjusts anything, and leaves them uncovered outside, they will need major repairs long before they should.

I praise the Max because it earns it.

By Motown's (Bigwolf) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well as I read and also talk with other users of the Max's and Argo's, everyone talks about the same tune. Some say bearings last on average about 200 to 250 hours, standard chain seems to run in the same hours range of usage, sprockets may only last about 3 to 4 chain change outs probably at best, if maintained properly. The verdict is still out on how long O-Ring chain will last. R.I. says any where from 300 to 1500 hours depending on who you talk to about it.

When I listen to the comments and advice of others and read the message postings, it is quite apparent to me that you better start buying up a whole S@#T load of bearings, chain, and sprockets because you are going to need them. It does not take much time duration to put 200 or 300 hundred hours of usage on a machine!

The last time that I checked the manufacturers retail prices on bearings, chains, and sprockets for my 6x6 Max, you can take that $300 number and multiply it times about 2.5 or 3. In fact I just bought a complete set of 18 new bearings and locking collars for my machine at wholesale prices and paid right around $270 excluding shipping. Factory retail price for those same bearings run about $700 alone! One solid spline axle shaft runs over $100 dollars by itself. One sprocket with spline hubs runs about $80 to $90 dollars alone. And 530 O-Ring chain seems to run about $9 to $11 per linear foot, so if you need about 35 to 50 ft of chain, that cost is about $500 for chain!

Now we did not even begin to touch on or discuss labor time or cost involved to tear down and do the repair work. A typical certified mechanic will run you about $50 to $65 dollars per hour for labor, and I also value my personal time at about $50 per hour.

You can lay out these numbers and cost and hours on a spread sheet or a piece of paper, you may just find these numbers to be quite a shock and rude awakening. This is just an example of what I mean by Life Cycle Cost to maintain an AATV.

If you were able to get all the materials needed to completely over haul your 6x6 Attex as you have mentioned, axles shafts, bearings, and chain for only $300 total cost out the door, you and I need to become much better freinds. I like your cost numbers much better than my cost numbers Amigo.

Hey guys if any of these assumptions and numbers that I have shown here are way off base or wrong, by all means please do jump in and correct them!

By Bud ( - 167.230.38.7) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Bigwolf:

Why did you have to buy a complete set of bearings and collars for your MAX IV? I thought that you just bought that bad boy last fall, just before I bought my MaxII. Shouldn't it still be under warranty?

Just curious.

Bud

By Motown's (Bigwolf) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hello Bud,

Sorry about causing the confusion about my Max IV machine! I am doing just fine with my machine, it runs and performs just fine for me.

I have been buying and stocking up on spare parts for the last month or two. I want to keep a little bit of every thing on hand just in case. I figured it would be wise to keep at least one complete set of bearings and a few axles on hand. I still need to buy up some spare sprockets, and more spare chain also.

When ever a bearing do go bad, I will do a complete bearing change out for the entire machine at that point in time. Then I will order another complete set to back fill the set used.

I just like to have some basic back up plan and parts available, when some thing does eventually break or fail. Stocking up on parts a little bit at a time should help to spread out the cost over time a little better.

Hopfully this plan will work out for me as time goes by.

By Bud ( - 167.230.38.7) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Great idea, Bigwolf. That proactive approach certainly beats the heck out of the reactive "where the heck is that delivery truck wiith my parts?" approach that I tend to take!

By fred sain on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have not been on the board in a while, but I see Sowerwine is still a loyal max dealer. Trash the competition, and tell it the way you want to. I have to say with all the direct sales that recreative industries does, sowerwine still defends them, I hope rec. ind. thanks him often.
Just for the record I am an ARGO DEALER, and ODG. has protected my sales area, for over 10 years. I tried the max several years ago, had a lot of trouble selling in my area, a lot of duck hunters, they had to have more space.

By thomas mrazik (Tcm) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I am waiting on the delivery of my new maxII with the 23hp kohler. This will be my first 6x6 but I have quad atv's for the last 12 years. To the person complainig about the costs of upkeeping the 6x6's must not have ever owend a four wheel atv because the cost of parts for these thing is staggering. I recently paid 250 for bearings and seal for my quad which I might gladly say I no longer own. And that was just for the parts. and almost 200 for the rubber boots that cover the cv joints. Thats 200 dollars for 4 little peices of rubber.

Lets just face it people YOU HAVE TO PAY TO PLAY!!!

Looking forward to the arrival of my new machine and taking my place in the great debate.

By Greg Lawrence on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey Im in this very decision right now! max vs argo. I found a 91 argo 8x8 magnum for 3500 with a converted boat trailer heh, and then Im also looking at a 95 maxIV for 2900 with new chains and bearings.. I will be duck hunting a large resevoir that looks like a jungle and has alot of lilly pads etc. and I have alot of rice fields with shell roads around and connected to all of them. so all in all ill have to buy a small trailer for the max. they come out to about the same price. which would be the best option? I also have a decoy sled that i carry decoys with. thanks!

By Howard on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Greg
I would buy the one that is in better shape, keep in mind
many people sell these machines cheap, because they
have not kept the machines under good repair. Most 2900 dollar
machines will need work, if you buy one and when it breaks
down, remember it is not the machines fault that the old owners
did not keep if up maintence wise.. remember the last silly guy named jojo???????????

By Greg Lawrence on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well here is a picture of the one im looking at tommorrow.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/57654555/183990756NWwDGa

if that doesnt work, then look at my album under ducks on the second page.

http://community.webshots.com/user/glaw395

he told me hes had to change one bearing and a chain. And he has six extra bearings for it. It has sat up in a garage under a tarp for the last three years.

By liflod (Liflod) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The only way to judge a machine is with the floor boards out and very detailed pictures of the sprockets and transmission/enigne. You need better pictures. The bodies only tell 10%.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Greg, We can't tell much from a picture - the stuff that gets beat up is on the inside (the outsides almost always look like new. What serial number, what engine, does it have solid axles, does it have skid plates (looks like it might, but the angle is bad. Pull the floor board out and look at the drive system and see if the inside is clean. If it has low hours, an 18Hp Briggs, solid axles and clean chain troughs, you probably have a good machine. It is very apt to have gasoline sludge problems and might need a carb kit afger sitting for three years.

If it has high hours, get all six wheels off the ground and check each wheel for side to side movement (checking the bearings) and with the vehicle is in reverse, check the forward and backward wheel movement (this will let you check chain tension and/or bolt slop (possible elongation of the axle bolt holes; if you can move the wheel assembly without the sprocket moving the same amount, you have bolt hole elongation.) With the wheels off the ground, the chains should provide 1/2" of deflection in the middle of the span. I move two wheels in opposite directions and if there is more than an inch of movement, things are needing work someplace. Ask him if he has ever had bead popping problems. Check to see how much air pressure in each tire (have a low pressure gauge in your pocket - get one at NAPA). If over 2.75 PSI, don't say anything, but that is why he is selling it (cause it rides too damn rough). Ask him when he last changed the tranny oil if the machine has two hundred hours or more. Look in the gas tank with a flash light to see if there is any gunk stuck to the walls or rust particles in the bottom of the tank. If ths machine has a serial number higher than 11598 it has the bigger outer bearing which is the same as on new production - if it has the older smaller bearing, it might need bearings more often depending on use.

I'm not going to say much more on which brand except a good Max IV with 26" tires is the best performing skid steer on the market for the money.

By Greg Lawrence on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well I looked at it this morning and it is in decent shape in my opinion. its serial is 11983 and it has 26 in tires. I actually saw one at the gas station yesterday, and it was a 98. it had zerk fittings for a grease gun on sprockets and stuff. this 95 doesnt have that though. It needs a throttle cable which hes going to replace. It looked real clean underneath the floor boards a little dirt and some leaves though. The motor is a 20hp kohler magnum. the kohler command was in the 98 at the gas station though. overall i like it, but ill buy it when i hear it run. Im sure the carb needs to be cleaned. and the battery was dead too. :( maybe ill tell him 2500 as it sits.

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred's right, As long as it's not one of those el cheepo entry level models,also if it is priced well below a Argo, It would be the best on the market for the money..

By Greg Lawrence on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well im going to pick up the max tonight, since it needs a battery and a throttle cable, im going to get it for 2500.00 I think that i should put some kroil or marvel mystery oil in the cylinder and change the oil first thing. ill let it sit overnight then turn it over by hand instead of cranking it. Its not froze up, just not been run in three+ years. the previous owner said he ran the gas out of the carbs last time he used it. im still thinking ill have to rebuild the carb. then its on to modifying it with cargo rack, winch, and bilge pump!

By jack ouellette on Unrecorded Date: Edit

What type of performance can I expect from a 2002 Max 4 950 with a 25 hp Kohler Engine and 26" tires. I see one for $9500 with two sets of tires,2 hrs on motor and top/windshield. Im also looking at a 2000 Max with 18hp motor and a track set up convertible top for $7995. and am bidding on a 1998 Max 2 .How do these machines compare performance wise? Build quality? What will the perfomance be compared to a 2000 Bigfoot with 18hp engine,winch,%8500 or a 1996 Vangaurd ,16 hp motor loaded?

Am at en undecided point now! Help me@

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Jack, what will you be using your Max for? I like the Max II for a more sporty ride, it's smaller and moves around faster. The Max IV 25/27hp is the ultimate 6x6 for going where no other ATV will go. It's the fastest 6x6 on both land and water. The '02 Max IV you are looking at probably has more than two hours. It should look like a brand new machine inside and out. Never go by the hour meter alone, many people unhook it while riding or replace it with a new meter when the old has 300 hours on it. You only need 26" tires unless you are running tracks, then you need 21" Goodyears. I wouldn't buy a machine that was run with dullies.
Does the '00 Max II you are looking at have 15" rubber tracks, or just the kit to set up the machine for track usage? That might be a good price if it has tracks and low hours. Always remember the drivetrain takes a pounding with lots of track usage. That machine could need new chains or sprockets. Look it over carefully and make sure it doesn't need a grand or more in parts just to make it reliable.

By Motown's (Bigwolf) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jack,

My first and most important piece of advise is, do not buy any thing on the spur of the moment off the internet or e-bay, with out first researching them thouroughly and test driving different machines first hand. This applies to both new and used machines. Be very carefull about buying a used machine, it could have been abused and not maintained properly by the seller.

Next research the maintenance requirements of both the Max and the Argo machines well, until such time that you clearly understand what is required to keep one running and in top notch condition. If you have to call the respective factories to get a copy of the maintenance manuals, then do it and read them carefully.

Next ask the factories and dealers and other users on this forum what replacement parts cost and what the expected life cycle is for the various parts that do wear out over time and usage. In other words research and understand the real life cycle cost to own and maintain a 6x6 and 8x8 chain driven machine.

After you have done this then you are in a much better position to make a knowledgable and well informed decision as to what to buy.

Also do not over look the Hydro Trax 6x6 machine, it is a hydrostatic driven machine and does not have a chain drive system. You may find the level of maintenance and the life cycle cost of that machine to be more attractive versus a chain driven machine. It is really a matter of preference and choice as to what type of drive system you are more comfortable to work on and maintain, and what level of maintenance and cost you are willing to deal with over the course of time.

If your desire is to run tracks, then look at the machines that have more horse power. Also make sure it is properly prepared for running tracks.

With out getting into the nuts and bolts and emotions of comparing brands on this forum, you would be better off to go and check out the different brands and models at the various dealers before you make a decision to buy any thing. Test drive them and look them over top to bottom. That is the only way that you will know which machine or brand you like the best, and will better suite your individual taste and applications requirements.

I can sum up the brand and model comparison for you in a way that I understand and relate with better. The Max II with the lower HP engines would be like owning a standard equipped Ford Focus. A Max II with a 23 HP engine would be like owning a Ford Focus with a turbo charged engine, in other words it a 6x6 speed buggy and it lighter weight and is very agile! It is best suited for light to medium duty usage.

The Max IV with the lower HP engine would be like owning a standard equipped Ford Ranger pick up truck with a 4 cylinder engine. A Max IV with a 27 HP Kawasaki engine would be like owning a Ford Ranger pick up truck with a turbo charged V6 engine, plenty of speed 30 to 35 MPH with 26 inch wheels, plenty of power and torque to spare. It is best suited for medium to medium/heavy duty usage and has very good agility.

The Hydro Traxx machine would be like owning a Ford Super Duty F-250 or 350 pick up truck, and if you bought the turbo charged deisel option, that speaks for itself with respect to increased speed, power and cargo carrying capacity.

The Argo 6x6 and 8x8 machines also fall into the same type of vehicle comparison catagory examples that I have used above, with a couple of exceptions. The Argo 8x8 Conquest and the new Argo Avenger in my mind would fall in to the Ford F-150 example comparison catagory. Although Argo has some fine products, I would not stretch it and put them into the Ford Super Duty F-250 & 350 example catagory. The Super Duty catagory would go to the Hydro Traxx, and the Argo Centuar machines.

These are my own thoughts and analysis and sick way of looking at things, however, it a method that I understand and relate with much better. You can of course substitute any other vehicle brand like GM or Chrysler in place of Ford as an example if you wish!

I hope some of this brief essay is helpfull.

By oldnatva on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Good to see you back on the boards, Brian- You always seem to have good advice. You may want to qualify your statement "It's the fastest 6x6 on both land and water." by inserting "Currently produced" in there somewhere. It will save an arguement with all the old Superchief and Bigmax nuts out there!
Take Care
Don

By Rogersmith (Rogersmith) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Ranchers and farmers are mounting 5th wheels in the Avenger's rear compartment, LOL. What class would that be, I wonder.

By Motown's (Bigwolf) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

That is interesting to hear about the fifth wheel hitch being installed in the Argo Avenger.

You know I see more and more people installing fifth wheel hitches in the F-150 also, and towing the smaller lighter weight versions of the fifth wheel campers these days.

By Jack Ouellette (Beungood) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The F-150 now as an 8000lb towing package option. I think it's the first half ton pick-up set up this way.

By Jack Ouellette (Beungood) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks for the information it will help me in my choice of AATV. I took the next step and went for a short ride with Dave B,Tim Schotanus and Tim Okeefe. They gave me alot of information and let me see for myself what these machines will do.

Thse guys are great and boy can they run their machines. I am now a little closer to getting my machine..

Jack

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