By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I live in an area with lots of creeks. I know I'm allowed to run the creeks in my kayak with no problem. If it's navigatable water, it's legal. Many of these creeks would be kinda fun in a Max too. How legal is it to take a Max through? Would I be fined for running an ATV in public land not designated for ATV use? Would I be fined for an unregistered Motor Boat? The kayak is unpowered of course, but the Max has a motor, so it doesn't quite have the same guidelines I think. Anyone help?

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jason: Whether its legal or not, AATV's shouldn't run creeks. They destroy spawning beds for fish and alter the watercourse where they get torn up. Believe me, I'm no greenpeacer but running a creek is not good for it and its just the kind of ammunition that nature radicals need to further their argument that there is no place on earth for off-road machines.
Don't do it.
P.J.

By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

P.J.: You make a few good points in your post. I hadn't thought of those reasons, but you are correct. It's tempting to do, but you convinced me otherwise. Thanks.

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Creeking is one of the funnest things you can do with an ATV. Lots of different terrain and it makes a great trail. It may or may not be legal in your state. It is best to just not ride where a lot of people can see you. If you drive up or down the creek away from this public area, no one will bother you. If there is a ranger or something just leave the area. You're amphibious and his vehicle is not.
I have driven my Max in a creek near my house countless times. I once drove for four hours one way. After two years of riding this creek, I don't see the complete devastation that the enviros claim. Maybe it does kill a few little creatures, big deal. I'm no scientist but I bet it won't upset the world food chain and make those creek critters extinct.
There are probably many quads that ride the creek already. I see a different one every time I go creeking. You keeping your Max out of it won't save the world or give enviros a better opinion of us. I'd go have some fun.

MaxRules

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

That's pretty short-sighted and selfish thinking Brandon. It's that kind of selfish short-sighted attitude that will eventually spoil it for everyone. You know NOTHING about stream biology. You seem to think that as long as no-one sees you its okay to do what ever you want (legal or not) and too bad for the environment. Responsible AATVer's can have fun without ripping up everything around them. Its not a matter of saving the world as you so sarcastically put it, its protecting our right to ride and not giving anyone any reason to ban the activity. Its attitude like that that will ruin it for all of us. Thanks a lot Brandon.

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well I guess timing is everything. Take a look at the headline section on the Sierra Club's home page (sierraclub.org). The title of the subject is ROAR NO MORE. Its all about ending off-road actvity for all terrain vehicles. It talks about their newest successes and future plans. As Brandon so correctly points out he is no scientist. The science of THE EFFECTS OF ATVS ON CREEKS is there for all to read. We had all better hope that the Sierra Club doesn't get a hold of Brandon's advice or we will all be relegated to running up and down our driveways. Am I the only one disgusted by this?

P.J.

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

PJ - how can I make a difference when so many people already ride in the creek? There is no way to stop them all. It looks to me like we are already forced to ride on our own property. The closest ATV park won't let a Max in because of the already ruined reputation of the Pilot and Oddyssy. I would gladly go ride there instead of in the creek but they won't let me. There is no reason for me to try to save the world by not riding in the creek. Every other ATVer is doing it, so I might as well get it while the gettin's good.

MaxRules

By Sam Keys on Unrecorded Date: Edit

PJ

I agree with you 100%
We must all work to better our chances

I do not think the opinion "I might as well get it while the gettin's good"
is at all the right idea. This gives us all a BAD name.

Sam Keys

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Need I say more?

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Gonna add my 2 cents worth here. I do not advocate "give em Hell" riding through the water and up and down the banks, but I can and do cross creeks without disturbing much. A fisherperson walking along the bank and into the water to fish or a horseman going across a creek does as much or more damage than I do in a max. Motner Nature with her spring run off and occasional cloudburst does much more to change the shape of the channel and condition of the spawning grounds than all the skid steers in the world can do.

Any one who says differently has an agenda. Careful use does not mean abuse. That is my big beef with the "tread lightly" crowd. Our low ground pressure vehicles do not leave any thing but a tread imprint and most people don't even know which direction the machine is going when they do see a track. Spinning wheels and hard turns are a no no, but even then the only scar pretty short lived and is only as deep as the tread is because you cannot dig trenches with a skid steer like a quad, motorcycle or regular 4 wheeled vehicle can.

I know there are many activist environmental groups that are winning the war against motorized vehicles (including the skid steers), but the idea is to raise money - nothing else.

As more of them get older and less healthy, they too will want to remain active. When we old, crippled people number big enough our machines will be welcomed with open arms - those days are coming faster than many people realize.

By gyrojimy on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I ride in creeks too. I have encountered conservation officers, Game wardens, ect.
I dont think they have any idea what the law is on these vehicles.
I have had my Max11 3 years and have never seen another anywhere in my or surrounding counties.
Going down a Ky. st. hyw. near a lake a police officer ask me to take him a ride in the lake!
I would advise keeping a low profile. Stay away from a lot of people. Dont make ugly tracks. you dont need to.
If you dont leave a sign no one will know you been there.
"Out of sight, out of mind"
gyro

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Crossing a creek without disturbing much is one thing, riding the creek is completely different. Don't make the mistake of underestimating the power of environmental groups when it comes to issues like these. They are almost always succesful when it comes to an issue like this. A typical example is right on the sierra club's home page (sierraclub.org). Make no mistake, these groups have off-road users in their sights. We are any easy target for them. The bulk of the voting public does not participate in our pastime and is easily swayed to support their position as a result. Remember that the sierra club alone has over 700,000 members. That's just one organization. In comparison, ATV groups can't organize a 2 car funeral. Elected officials, as we all know listen to #'s of votes ahead of reason. The enviros have the votes, the science, and public opinion when it comes to this. Riding creeks is not and inalienable right. We can't give them any more ammunition to further their cause and promoting creek riding does just that. Cross them, fine. Ride them, DON"T DO IT!

By Eugene Kochnieff on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi All,
I have to agree with the green vote here, sorry fred you have no more right to make a living out of selling max's than the greenies do raising funds and being full time activists. The possession of a machine (anykind) does not by default give you dominion over the planet we all share.An individuals actions reflect on all his ilk and brandons attitude is akin to the fools who litter the highways, the "my little bit does not count" mentality is a real shame even if brandon cannot be convinced of the local damage he must be doing in his creek, what about the impact on water quality his actions have down stream. I bet the water is not as clear down stream as up stream of his "fun"!!!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

heh heh, eugene, im not totaly disagreing with you but if you were to folow any streem up streem wouldent you eventualy come to an 100 year old mill that has dumped toxic wast for 50 of them?
i know in the new england erea this is true,
(don't eat the fish)

By Bill H on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have to go with Fred and Brandon with this. Where I ride The 4wheelers make all the trails and damage. I ride the creeks some times. 1/2 inch of rain and you can't even till I was there. And by il. laws. I own some of the creek that I ride in. I don't like any body riding up the sides,and try to tell all that are there that that is the only damage. The farmers do more damage then I ever could,Dead hogs, People dumping . We leave it better than when we get there. Bill H.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

PJ, did you miss my point about Mother nature or did you just not want to respond. If you have ever watched a flood in action, you know very well that nothing we do has any impact. I float a lot of rivers and drive up and down the creek beds. I doubt if anyone can tell 99% of the places I have been right after I was there. If there is some sand or silt, I will leave tire tread imprints, but they are gone in very short order. No, I do not churn up the water, I pass through it.

You can never suck me in on this and in the end the enviromental activists will have to face the truth. I will say it again: Just because we are there does not mean we have damaged anything.

Eugene; This has nothing to do with my making a living selling max - (actually I don't make a very good living in that pursuit) it has to do with common sense and fairness. If anyone or anything (human or animal) is allowed to go up, down or accross the stream or body of water (lake creek, river, bog, etc.) then so should a max be allowed (maybe some of your machines are heavy enough that you are doing the same damage as conventional machines).

In actuality, there is no vehicle made that can do more damage to the stream beds than does the annual run off.

By maximus on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I think its my god given right to put the wheels of my max upon this earth! and just think in 100 years my grand kids max wont even have wheels!

By Eugene Kochnieff on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Again,
And most forest fires are started by lightning, and towns are leveled by earthquakes, hurricanes and on and on. This is no reason to help do any damage with aggressive riding, i dont take umbrage with you fred if you are as good as your word you are very gentle on the environment with a machine that can if used sensibly be quite a deal less impacting than many other RVs.
I do find the stated RIP BUST TEAR I DONT CARE attitude of brandon a bit much though, for those that dont know i live in Australia and our environmental record is as poor as that of the USA we are just lucky enough to be 200 years younger and far less populated. Water Quality is a real issue on the dryest continent (apart from Antarctica) At some stage we all will have to be green ( I'm not one yet still have a 2 stroke outboard) or we will pay the price, like i said before it's the my little bit does not count attitude that does all the harm.
He says stepping off the soap box!!!!!!!

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eugene, I'm glad you get at least part of my point. The Max is easier on the environment (PSI on the ground, compaction, crushing of plants and animals, etc) than any other vehicle made and much easier than the human foot (and most animal feet). We cannot expect to live on this planet with no impact. The Earth is a constantly changing thing with things growing and dying on a regular basis, with topographical changes. We are just a blurb on the surface and our life span is not even a blurb in the scheme of things. There is nothing we as humans can do that Mother Nature (left completely alone by man) will not erase from the face of the earth in 35 to 50 years (most is gone in two or three).

Even those with " devil be damned" attitude do nothing that will, in the long run, make a lasting impact regardless of what some of the activist environmental associations say. The science does not back them up and the public is beginning to realize that just because someone looks straight into the TV screen and says "I did not have sex with that woman" that it ain't necessarily so.

It's all about money and jobs and influence. Save the trees so they can burn up. Stop poluting the air with factory emmisions and vehicle exhaust, but the smoke from forest fires and ash from volcanos is just fine. Can't walk or drive in Yellowstone park, but it is OK for Bill Clinton to have a news event, in a meadow that trampled everything, to celebrate the closing of a mine that never shut down.

I'll say it again. Anyone who proclaims humans affect the earth have an agenda - and a desire to evoke emotion to raise money, period.

I know I am careful because I want to be. I have been in agriculture all of my adult life and I know how to take care of growing things. Every year things get torn up and new things come about. Nature is constantly changing and that is how it is suppose to be.

Our machines are amphibious and I am not ashamed of the fact. Take your 2 stroke outboard - it affects the air and the water - My max affects nothing. IMO, Your 2-stroke outboard doesn't do anything (of long term lasting effect) either.

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred you make lots of good points about creek riding. For you others, I can't see how you can make such an opinion of how I ride in creeks. I simply said I do ride in creeks. Why do you assume I detroy everything? Because I'm 17?
I'll tell you now that I never tear up anything while riding the creek. The creek today is just as good, or better, than the day I first rode in it.
The only area of land I tear up on purpose is the mud hole on my property. I find it almost funny that countless frogs live here along with many other creatures, while our lake has nothing but fish.

MaxRules

By Harry Dusseau (Dirtyharry) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have read the posts here on this thread with great interest. I want to add my spare change here along with the rest.

I too ride creeks. Specifically, I ride a 2 1/2 mile section that runs through my Grandfather's farmland. It is just wide enough to accomodate my MAX. When I first happened upon it while exploring the deeper areas of his woods, it was a MESS. I spent a lot of my money and personal time back in that woods clearing and cutting back up and down both sides of that little creek to make access easier.

There were so many branches and sections of fallen trees littered along and across the creek that it took the better part of an entire summer for me (with an occasional friend's help) to get it cleared and cleaned up. Now the water flows unimpeded by clumps of sticks & leaves and half-buried tree limbs. The banks are exposed to sunlight now and have grassed up very nicely, thank you. I've done more to restore the creek than destroy it.

The funny thing is, is that if left alone for a couple of years, it would once again become a branch & tangle-infested mess that it would bog down to barely a trickle. I cross it once or twice a week, and ride it's length even less often. I can come back just one day after running it's length and see ZERO evidence that I was ever there. So please spare me the greenie-based rhetoric about how I am helping to destroy the world with my 'evil' vehicle. I don't buy it.

By Harry Dusseau (Dirtyharry) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ONE FINAL THOUGHT ON HURTING THE EARTH BY CREEKING

I read this the other afternoon and thought it very nicely sums up my thoughts on this whole "save the world from ourselves" agenda you see and hear in the media. I have paraphrased it to make it more family friendly, but the base message remains unchanged.

"I'm not one of those people who worries about everything. Do you have people around you like that? The country's full of 'em now. People walkin' around all day, worried about everything. Worried about the air, the water, the soil, pesticides, food additives, carcinogens, radon, asbestos. Worried about saving endangered species.

Lemme tell you about saving endangered species. Saving endangered species is just one more arrogant human attempt to control nature. That's what got us into trouble in the first place. Interfering with nature. Meddling. Doesn't anybody understand that?

And as far as endangered species are concerned, it's a phony issue. Over 90 percent of all species that ever lived on this planet are gone. They're extinct. We didn't kill them; they just disappeared. That's what species do; they appear, and they disappear. It's nature's way. Irrespective of our behavior, species vanish at a rate of 25 a day. Let them go gracefully. Stop interfering. Leave nature alone. Haven't we done enough damage?

We're so self-important. So arrogant. Everybody's going to save something now. Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save the snails. And the supreme arrogance? Save the planet! Are these people kidding? Save the planet? We don't even know how to take care of ourselves; we haven't learned how to care for one another. We're gonna save the planet?

I'm gettin' tired of that crap. I'm tired of Earth Day. I'm tired of these self-righteous enviromentalist, white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren't enough bike paths. Tryin' to make the world safe for their repulsive Volvos.

Besides, enviromentalists don't give a crap about the planet anyway. Not really. Not in the abstract. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. That's all. They're worried that sometime in the future they might personally be inconvienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

And, by the way, there's nothing wrong with the planet in the first place. The planet is fine. The people are messed up! Compared with the people, the planet is doin' great. It's been here over four billion years. Did you ever think about that? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. And we've been here for what? A hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred versus 4.5 billion! And we have the nerve, the conciet to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're going to put this beautiful little blue-green ball in jeopardy?

Believe me, this planet has put up with much worse than us. It's been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, solar flares, sunspots, magnetic storms, pole reversals, plantary floods, worldwide fires, tidal waves, wind and water erosion, cosmic rays, ice ages, and hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets, asteroids, and meteors. And people think a few plastic bags and aluminum cans are going to make a difference?

The planet is goin' anywhere folks. We are! We're goin' away. Pack your stuff, we're goin' away. And we won't leave much of a trace. Thank God for that. Nothing left. Maybe a little styrofoam. The planet will be here, and we'll be gone. Another failed mutation; another closed-end biological mistake.

The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas. And it will heal itself, because that's what the planet does; it's a self-correcting system. The air and water and earth will recover and be renewed. And if plastic is really not degradable, well, most likely the planet will incorporate it into a new paradigm: The Earth + Plastic. Earth doesn't share our prejudice against plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. She probably sees it as one of her many children.

In fact, it could be the reason the earth allowed us to be spawned in the first place; it wanted plastic and didn't know how to make it. It needed us. That could be the answer to the age-old question: 'Why are we here?' 'Plastic, a$$holes!'"

Food for thought...

DirtyHARRY

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

harry plate tectonics is the anser, when thay colide often one go's under so eventuily all the plastic will be back inside the earth again!

By Bill H. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dirty Harry, I like it ha ha ha
Like George carlin Said----We ain't destroying the earth We are destroying yourself's. The earth will be just fine, we won't.
Bill H.

By Joel Haslett (Rustyjeep) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

One thing I have learned since being involved with organized off road activities ,is that we are not the only ones reading sites like this one. State game wardens ,forest rangers ,and any other enviromentaly interested people are most likely reading every word posted here. If we even look like we are being careless with the land we ride on it will most likely result in land closeure somewhere. I have seen at least one case where a 4x4 ride was shut down because information posted on a webbsite was read by a government agent. Keep in mind when you post that we are being watched not only on the trail but here too. Around here good trails are becoming as scarce as a mint condition Amphicat.I hope we don't lose anymore of either.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well, I hope someone in authority does read this. If reason would prevail, a lot of this environonsense would be curtailed. It will probably take civil disobedience at this point to make our point. I for one am willing to get arrested proving that my machine is doing no damage. Here in Montana (and N. & S. Dakolta), the forest and BLM has been closed to cross country travel. I have been busy building my new place and have not been out at all, but soon I will have the time to go and make the news (I might get a little publicity if nothing else).

I am so sick and tired of this environcrap I could spit. What needs to be done is have their taxfree status taken away and their charitable designation removed (they would not be given near as much money if those who gave could not get a tax deduction). Also all these conservation easments should be stopped so property cannot be taken off the tax rolls shifting the burden to the property that remains on the rolls.

Maybe instead of the Humphrey ride we need someone to organise a parade of ATVs down Pennsylvania Avenue (A million machine march)!

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I'm guessing that several environmental groups are already aware of this thread. Because of the content of this discussion it is very likely that any organized rides (Humphrey etc.) discussed on this or any other website may well be visited by these groups or by law enforcement officials of some sort. That's how it starts. I think its safe to say that this scrutiny will continue for a long long time. This has put this site and AATV's under the microscope.

By Bill H. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The Humphrey ride is put on by the fire dep!
Bill H.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Maybe P.J. is part of one those groups that is so set on saving the world from the phantom villains. Regardless it is a pretty cheap shot to try to intimidate us into doing as he thinks we should.

By Eugene Kochnieff on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi All,
Well what a hot topic!!!!!
Dirty Harry you dont think that creek may have just mean to be an overgrown tangled mess? Is it not human arrogance to assume we can improve on nature, plastic is great for us and the planet at large may not suffer in the long term i totally agree(Short term well????). You can't be serious that we have had no effect since the start of the industrial age though!!!!!!!!!! Global warming is real and so is the Ozone hole and i agree the world is self correcting but why make ourselves extinct the only species with a choice and you argue that its ok to eliminate ourselves, probably qualified by a "not in my life time desire". All you guys that live in nice unpolluted areas do so at the expence of the environment and life and health of other areas and people around the world, go and try to live on a small pacific island in threat of submersion due to raising sea levels or just about anywhere in North Africa, while money and the good fortune you were born in the USA insulates you from the problems it's easy to say there is no reason to be careful, but suppose you live to see the day that only bill gates can afford clean air and water you'll say it was bound to happen! You are right that the earth will out live us. Bottom line is while we cant undo the damage in many areas we still desire to explore wilderness areas threatening to make them the sort of human altered areas that no longer hold interest to us, catch 22!!!! I dont know how you guys get around the issue but here we have large areas of land that have been used for primary production untill exhastion the when no longer profitable turned into private recreation parks where offroaders can tear it up on wild land that has already been damaged. These places are as good a compromise as it gets.I agree with the coments about this forum is being monitored it happened here in Australia in the 4WD magazines years before the web and now there is virtually no public land free to offroaders.

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

And your point is?

By Cmdr Vogt on Unrecorded Date: Edit

PJ. and Eugene, how long were you members of the
sierra club before becoming board members and
spokesmen ? Do you actually own an ATV of any sort
?! You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for
sounding like a bunch limp wristed Envirogeeks ,
what a bunch of bravo sierra !!!!!!

PJ. , you aked if anyone else was disgusted and
the answer is yes, with you and your condecsending
remarks towards Brandon and your arogant attitude
in general ! You ought to appologize to Brandon
and all the other ATV'ers who read this post .
As to your fear tactics of trying to intimidate
people from these types of disscusions , you will
only generate more antipothy for your cause !

I do greatly regret my being unavailable for the
Humphrey ride this year , but rest assured , my
confederate friends and I shall grace the next
ride with the hopes of slinging some major mud and
giving a big , warm welcome to any enviromenalists
who might wish to partake.

I will continue to ride and hug a tree or two with
the warmest of thoughts of our enviromentalist
friends !

Kyle (aka Cmdr Vogt) Vogt USA,MP,SRT,6th Grp(IA)
Airborne-Six Paintball & 6x6 ATV's

By P.J. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

As a lifelong hunter and gun collector I do belong to a couple of groups dedicated to preserving our pursuits and rights. I DON'T happen to belong to any environmental groups. I've seen what happens to our rights as shooting sportsmen and gun owners when certain of our own start making stupid comments or shouting irresponsible statements for anti-gun lobbyists to trot out whenever an issue is at stake. My point is if we just flat out deny that we have no responsibility as stewards of the land and keep on selfishly using and abusing it WE WILL LOSE THE RIGHT TO USE IT! Like I said in the beginning, crossing creeks is one thing, running them is quite another. Right now we have the right to choose. If we choose wisely, we can protect our riding rights. If we make the wrong decision we will lose them. Its as simple as that. Facts are facts.

I hope that I will be able to meet you Fred and Kyle sometime in the not too distant future so we can discuss this issue face to face.

P.J.

By Eugene Kochnieff on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi All,
I dont belong to any eviro or green groups either!
I am a boatie and a 4WDer i used to bush bash and thankfully saw the error of my ways, i have seen considerable damage done in twenty years of offroading and ten or so years of boating, but i now look to see the effects rather that look to ignore them and that may be the difference.
I dont own an AATV i would like to but will have to wait, my interest in this site is mainly technical as can be gathered from my many posts.

As for running creeks common sense says a system that evolved to tolerate major annual disruption (floods etc) probably supports life with a life cycle shorter than one year, but even a small but regular (say monthly) dissruption can cause havoc with life that has a life cycle of say 1-2 months or even a year. I would think that for any AATV even the hallowed MAX's the time when they can do the most damage is at that point when they are at the transition between land and amphibious. It is at this time that the wheels are still partially in contact with the ground but spinning at faster than the forward speed which means they are tearing up the bottom!!!! this happens for a very short time as an AATV enters or leaves a body of water or many times as it makes this transition to and fro while creeking and hence my dissagreement with creeking. Not being a greenie despite accusations to the contrary and not being a devoted AATV'er please consider the point that from my perspective i see arguments from both camps as unyielding and extreme. If you cant argue your case without attacking the opposition you probably have run out of constructive reasoned arguments, and if you look at your own arguments and can't see where you have made a consession to the other side you are either god and cant be wrong or you do NOT have a balanced out look on the issues. Enough said.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eugene, that's what I like to see - intelligent discussion, Not "I'm gonna tell Mom and Daddy will spank you" mentality.

IMO, it doesn't have to be the way you described - those kind of drivers are the ones who get stuck. The majority of the surface of our creek/river beds is rock. We have some sand areas and some silt areas. I try to stay out of the silt areas because just passing through discolors the water (even though it is only for about 35 feet downstream). Most of the time I am not even in the water - on the smaller creeks I have one set of tires on one side and the other on the other side; larger stream beds allow driving on one side or the other, all below the normal high water line. The Max in particular (all my experience out and about has been in a Max), with its low PSI on the ground and exceptional traction, can be driven so its passage cannot be detected in most situations.
Maybe P.J. in his Argos is tearing things up and should stay out of the creek/ river beds.

I will agree with you that some surface damage has been done by careless use, although I am not real sure it is lasting and I don't think most of it is that big of a deal. Wherever man goes (whether by foot, horseback or by machine) he will leave some imprint - I just do not agree that just because someone is there that they are doing damage. And I might add that even if some damage might be done (rain does damage, hail does damage, wind does damage, sun does damage, etc.) that it is within the realms of normal wear and tear.

What I have said all along is "if humans are to be there, in any capacity, a Max should also be allowed." Now, if an area is so fragile that it should never be visited by anyone or any thing, then I will agree to stay away.

Mother Nature is pretty good. The environmental groups are also very good at raising money; at pulling emotional strings with faulty science and poor logic.

By davidb3rd@aol.com (David3rdd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i ride in the water some places and other places i would not due too the enviroment there, i have bin cairfull not too disturb thouse fragile places where winter and spring run offs have formed pools where life cycles of vairios creatures is short enoph to be compleated befor the pools dry up,
well now there are houses there,
soon all the streems and brooks ect we drive threw and or would avoid driveing threw will be paved over by "progress" and thats a fact, another story- my towns people have shown up at town meetings and struck down praposels for NEW schools time and time again, (we have enoph of them,) one isent even used as it needs some doors chainged ect for beter acess, at the town meetings many people have asked the town too fix that building but you know when all is said and done and know body is looking thay build another school anyway and of corse large parking ereas acsess roads ect..and you know its always some nice old trails or brooks and small ponds ect. that get paved over, so..
think on this one, what are we saveing it for?
dont get me wrong, i like things as they are but just blink and it's a mall or somthing,even if none of us ever ran a creek or this thred never existed this is a certinty, chaing will come to the beutifull outdoors we all love and chaing is often bad,
unles your cosin is in construction and your on a town board i gues

By big daddy on Unrecorded Date: Edit

to eugene and pj ive been reading your messages and laughing at you guys . eugene i see your from austrailia a country that voted to banish guns from private citizens i guess you have nothing to do now . so you get on this message board and try your idiot views on americans. to pj i own my own farm i ride my 1000 lb 6x6 through my pond allmost daily .the cattails and the grass where i come out of the pond and still growing just fine i can send a email pic of the spot where i go in and exit at the pond to prove how wrong and misguided your thought and reasons are .i find it interesting you provided the sierra clubs web address even though you state your not a member who you kidding ?

By BILL on Unrecorded Date: Edit

6x6 and 8x8 amphibs are not the determining factor here. Their influence on the environment is probably closer to .00000000000000000002%, as compared to chemical and sewage pollution farther up that very creek or stream. If a "Greenie" wanted to fight the good fight, then stay focused on the REAL issues here.

As for amphibs going up or down creeks. I feel that it is more a question of legality, then preservation.

If you put your finger in a toilet, your hand will have an impact on the health of the water.
But what if the water in the bowl was very unsanitary to begin with? Does that Amphib really make that much difference??????????
Not anymore!

As for people (non-ATVers) being disturbed, sure they'll be upset with you trucking on through thier favorite fishing hole. Be sure of what it is they're really disturbed about though. It's not the welfare of the creek and the creatures that live there...
IT'S THEIR PEACE AND QUIET THEY WANT TO PROTECT.

BILL

By Eugene Kochnieff on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi, Big Daddy.
Well like i said before if you can't argue your case without attacking the opposition you have probably run out of constructive reasoned arguments! I note you first contribution to this post is an attack so i predict your future contributions are only going to go down hill, why don't you pleasantly surprise this community and poor "idiot liar" me by proving me wrong!!!
We have not banished private gun ownership at all we have made it unlawfull for a private citizen to own an automatic weapon (assault rifle /machine gun etc) on the grounds an average person will not need one to go shooting rabbits or deer etc!
All other conventional firearms (rifles/shotguns/pistols) are available within a licencing system. Not that i see how that could be relevant to the topic of this discussion.

Eugene Kochnieff, Electronics technical officer, Justice of the Peace.

Ps. i note you can't spell Australia.

Pps. i am not the one concealed behind a pseudonym.

By Dave on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Big Daddy,

Funny, automatic firearms are banned from most of the USA too. Go figure.

Eugene,

Can't agree with you more.

G'day.

By davidb3rd@aol.com (David3rdd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

actualy automatics havent bin toutched at all, the non automatic lookalikes have, the real ones are fedaraly regulated and ANY american citizen who can own a rifle CAN also own an automatic,
but only if thay wish to do the paperwork and pay the goverment the huge fee's ect,, each one you own has its own stamp and so on, there is a lot of regulations on them, but nothing to stop yah if you like to blow money like that, only in movies are automatics big crime guns, hell there too dam expencive, even just to feed the things cost big bucks, nope the cheep guns are the choice for crimenals,ask anybody who has a machinegun and im shur thayl tel yah a good day of target shooting cost hundreds of dollers, even slow ones can go threw a hundred bucks in just a few minuets,
but the banners who make alot of money with there brimstone revival meetings ect will tel you diferent,they brag how there efective ect.. but they have only harmed the honest people,

By BILL on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Is it illegal for me to own a fully automatic AATV?????? Did the government put a ban on those too?
And What about fully automatic AATVs in astruaillaia??? (:p)


Where's this thread going?

I'm seriously interested in what any of our local and state laws are on this subject of 'Creeking'.

I think that I'm going to start calling around the State Offices here and see what I come up with.

NO WORRIES, MATE!!!

BILL

By Speed on Unrecorded Date: Edit

If we are a capitalistic country (which we supposedly are)then the owners of the streams are the only people that can make the decision of how it can be used. If you own a stream and want to kill all of the snail darters in it, that is your 'inalienable' right to do so.

Unfortunately, the 'eco terrorists' have taken property rights from us to create the socialist-collectivist state that they want. If we hide from them, they win. The way we handle this in Ocala Florida is blatent civil disobedience.

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Gentlemen,

After reading several posts about this I can only offer my wisdom to it. There are problems on both sides of this issue. First as a responsible aatver let's seperate ourselves from the likes of quads and the like. Let's face it we are not quad owners(most of us anyway) and for the most part don't 'fit in' with that crowd. Most people buy aatv's to go hunting or things like that where those other vechiles can't go. Most of us respect the land we ride on and respect no tresspassing signs and things of that nature. To go blazing through someones yard without permission with reckless abandon and to spend all day churning up creeks is probably not a good idea. However, there is a placefor nature and is a place for responsible use. Designated areas for aatv use should be used and people should enjoy what they do. Places desginated as 'hands off' should stay that way. See the thing we are all missing is that middle ground what constitutes abuse and what constitutes overreaction? We have a major fire problem in our national parks because all through the clinton era noone was allowed to cut underbrush causing and huge build up of fuel. This is why we had such bad fires last summer. Then you have the whole twostroke arguement. I think the air we breath is more important than maybe a few creek crossing's. some may agree with me soem may not. I'm currently working on my attex to make it a bit les noisy and a bit less smoky. Let's face it 30 years ago when they built these machines noone worried about the environment now people do. And for the most part it's positive but liek anything else we have some bad eggs. You know them the jackasses that tie themselves to trees when they live in a wood studded house! This behavior not only is unacceptable but is dangerous and stupid. Education and awareness on both sides is what needs to happen not uneffective arguements that go one for years. But even though the Sierra club has lots of money the opposition has just as much. Do you honestly think that skidoo,yamaha,honda, and the 10 or 15 other companies that produce atv's and snowmobiles are just going to throw up thier hands and say oh well let's stop production we are killing some snail darters! Cmon let's be realistic. And writting to your local congressman or senators is also a waster of time. Most wouldn't know what an atv is let alone what it does or how it pollutes the environment. The bottom line is a middle ground needs to be set and agreed opon it's finding that middle ground that is the problem because both sides don't want to give an inch. Eventually, this will lead to both sides bascially declaring war on each other and we have chaos. So instead of arguing find the solution. And btw just if anyone's curious I'm on the 6x6 side :)

By David P. Johnston on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Be nice. 6x6 and 8x8 ATVs are still relatively scarce in the world. We have yet to develop a reputation. If we develop a "bad" reputation, then you can bet whenever they pass a law banning snowmobiles from some area, we will be banned also. If the pass a law banning ATVs, we get banned also. If we can create in the mind of the public that we are "different" then we will be treated different. As it stands right now, they have banned snowmobiles from a large area around Tahoe. But since I do not drive a snowmobile........but it will not remain this way if I go and do the same sins the snowmobilers committed....One bad apple can spoil it for the rest of us. I think the best bet is for those using 6x6 and 8x8s to be the best environmentally friendly people you can meet.

By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Ok, now that winter is on us... and I started this whole thread. Let's change the question to legality of creeking on a frozen creek. Since the creek is frozen, running on it wouldn't destroy the spawning growns of the little squirms that live there. Since I can kayak the creeks during the summer, they're navagatable. Is it legal to run my Max down the creeks in winter? I would never do that with my quad, just in case it falls through the ice, but on my Max... no problem. Thoughts?

By Bill Davis (Nvbigblue) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey guys,
Although I'm still waiting to be able to ride my MAX anywhere, creek or otherwise, I will have to say that I ride my Honda 3-wheeler around here quite a bit. I live about a mile from the Carson river, and around here it averages about 40 feet wide and maybe 10 to 20 inches deep most times of the year. During spring it might swell to 3 feet deep or more. But most of the time it's wide and shallow running in the middle of the riverbed. The banks are mainly sand and gravel, but there is also a lot of dirt and clay in areas. Everything from hard pack dirt to corn sized gravel to fine beach sand to ultra fine sand powder. As wide and shallow as it is, I can ride my 3-wheeler for almost 20 miles without leaving the riverbed (even further if I go around a dam). Of course I have to cross the running water quite a few times to so. And one thing I've noticed is that I can ride the exact same route 3 days apart and almost all of my tracks from the previous ride will have been erased. Some of them wiped away by the wind, some by variations of the water level, and some by the tracks left by animals....deer, cows, birds...animals. Yes, there are places you can still see tracks, but you have to be standing right on top of them to notice. Get 5 or 10 feet away and they blend in. Now granted, I'm not running flat out down the riverbed, power sliding around corners and such, I have my 3-wheeler geared down for climbing so it tops out around 35mph or so. And most of the time I run between 10 and 15. At that speed, with my nice quiet muffler, I have snuck up on on (and passed without hardly disturbing them) cows, deer, quail, sage hen, pheasant, and even people out for a quick skinnydip in the water. (there are a few deep pools ...perfect for the max...hehe) Now I know when I cross the water I stir up a little muck....but it settles out after 40 or 50 feet. But sit and watch how much sediment gets kicked up by a heard of cows crossing a creek or river. Now, I do it once or twice a month....cows (and other animals) are out there every single day trudging through the water.....who's doing more damage? There are spots where the cows regularly drink that have been turned into very large, very muddy bogs. You know the type of hole I'm talking about.....cows sink down to their knees.... I can drive across them leaving 3, very shallow tracks....right over the 18 inch cow holes...and continue on my way. In 3 days you wouldn't be able to tell I was even there...in fact, I'll bet you could run a 50 3-wheelers or quads across these bogs and in 3 days you woulldn't be able to tell they were there......because the cows have pushed the tracks a foot under the surface! The only place that a person might be able to tell where I was at is where I enter and leave the riverbed using dirt banks instead of sand. And even those tracks dissapear after the first rain!

OK, now before I get a lot of grief..... I will admit up front, that even my laid back type of "creeking" isn't appropriate for every little creek I come across. And I realize that if there where 100 quads doing this every weekend it would definately impact the river and surrounding area. But under the right circumstances, I don't see why a low pressure vehicle like a 6x6 (or 8x8) or even light 3-wheelers and quads, can't run down creeks and such. The tracks from 4x4 vehicles (or even an aggressivley driven low pressure machine like a 6x6) can stay in the dirt and mud for months if not YEARS!! (depending on when they were made). Those made in sand are more visable than my 3-wheeler tracks, but even they eventually disappear. I guess my point is while "creeking" isn't something for everyone or every creek, when done with a little thought, I personally don't see anything wrong with it. And BTW, because of all the mining done around here in the 1800's, the mercury levels in the Carson are so high, you can no longer eat the fish.

And yes, Jason, I have ridden on it when it's frozen over....it's a blast! But before you do, check the thickness of the ice, and use a little common sense. The formula H=4 multiplied by the square root of P, where H is the thickness of the ice and P is the gross load in tons. Now this formula is for CLEAR, HARD ice! White ice = air = weaker ice. Basically it works out to about 4 inches of ice per ton of wieght. And remember, wide or deep bodies of water circulate and the ice near the edges will most likely be thicker than the center. Water levels can drop after the top has frozen leaving a unsupported (weak) ice above it. Also, given enough speed, weight or other factors, you can generate pressure waves in front of your vehicle, causing the ice to push the water underneath. When this under ice water wave gets to the edge of the river (lake, pond, etc.), the wave hits the bottom and begins pushing up, and given a big enough wave it blows out the ice near the edge...right in front of you. That can be bad.... Just be careful. I have some pictures of me and a friend playing on a frozen lake here: http://www.tinyhost.com/tam/adventures/atv/the_icemen.htm

As for the legal side of things..(at least here in NV)..as far as I know and have been told by state officials, most streams and all navigable waters are owned by the state or BLM. Property owners CANNOT stop you from traveling their "section" of the river. I know this first hand. While fly-fishing the Truckee outside of Reno, I had a land owner come down to the river and tell me to get out. He said that he "owned" this section of the river (all that border his property) and that I was tresspassing. If I didn't get out he would call the police. I said no, and he called the Washoe County Sheriffs office...they show up and tell me to get out of the water or be arrested...I tell them that according to fish and game, I am entitled to be here (of course, I'm still standing about 15 feet from the bank, chest deep in 45 degree water, so they didn't really want to come in and get me!). After nearly an hour of arguing with them, a Fish and Game officer shows up (one of the sheriffs had called them), and he informs the land owner and the cops that, yes, I have every right to be there....as long as I am 3 feet or more away from the bank. Seems that, here in Nevada at least, a land owners property line travels back and forth with the water level....always 3 feet into the water from the current water line. He can own both sides of the river, but if the river is 50 feet across, he can't control what happens on the middle 44 feet. Now if the water level is so low that there ISN'T 6 feet of water distance, he DOES own that section. But again, that's here in Nevada......so I'd say if it's wide enough to ride...it's probably legal....but I'm not a lawyer! BTW, when I did get out of the water, I was nearly frozen. The Fish & Game guy had to give me ride back to my truck, because I could barely walk!
Regards,
Bill Davis

By J Nash on Unrecorded Date: Edit

A thought to all atv/aatv owners:
Alot of people have all the toys, yet no place to
play. Apartment dewlers own atv's, 4x4's, suv's,
dirt bikes, etc. I own a amphicat, scrambler 4x4,
xr600 Honda, Big Red three wheeler, Ford Bronco ll
4x4, Ford Ranger 4x4, Chevy G30 4x4 Van, and over
a hundred acres in the foot hills of Tennessee.
My nebourghs own another 5 to 6 hundred acres
that border mine. They too own atv's and 4x4 vhic. Together we have many friends and family
that also love to ride. Through their friends over the years we have had a wonderful place to enjoy our toys, and have allowed others to ride our property as well. Most have been responsible
and follow the rules we ask. Ware a helmet, no alchol or drugs, campfires only in marked areas, approved exhaust systems and spark aresters, stay on the log roads and established trails, take with you what you bring in, do not chase the livestock or wildlife, close the gates as you go through, and no glass containers. Others ,infact several have been told not to return. One tried to sue, after he fell off riding a wheelie and broke his arm. Another built a fire to warm their hands and burned aprox. 25 acres before the volunteer fire dept. could put it out. Luckly it was only leaves and under brush, but three years later, I had to prematurely log the area due to worms intering the trees where the fire damaged the tree bark.
When we had a chance to ride, we spent time picking up beer bottles, drink containers, oil
containers, articals of clothing, full trash bags
people brought from home, tires, etc. Two cut up
my garden. A few cut our fences after they were told not to come back, and countless confrontations with people that would not follow the rules. You would have thought they were paying the morgage and helded the deed to my property.
Estimating, about 40% played nice and the rest
did what ever they pleased, untill myself or
others put a stop to it. We just became tired of
policeing the property, geting calls in the middle of the night to chase cattle because someone left the gate open. SO, We put a stop to it all. Now, we only allow select family and friends to ride.
Being responsible, thats the key. The next time you see someone thats not, let him know He is the reason you have few, if any place to ride. Or better yet, report him to the authorities. Weed out the bad apples. They will ruin it for everyone.
Please don't think I have anything against apartment dewelers. I lived in a apartment myself for severial years. So don't take what I say out of context, TAKE IT TO HEART !

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

J Nash,
You are right on the money. the fourwheelers did have dice runs at humphrey, but they didn't stay on the trails and dumped trash all over the place. when we on aatvs came back down the trails it looked like a landfill. that was two years ago and the fourwheelers and dirtbikes haven't been back for a dice run that I know of. I must say that all the amphibs at the dice runs leave the trails as they found them. I am glad I am part of a responsible group that rides at humphrey and luckily the quads did't ruin it for us.

By J Nash on Unrecorded Date: Edit

argogeru,
Maybe its easier to carry more on a aatv and have
room for a trash bag. Who knows? I just ask everyone pitch in no matter what you ride.
Thanks for the post. Be safe, curtious, and enjoy life. One things for sure, We're not going to get out of it alive, but no reason to rush things.

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

j,
The general attitude of most quad people is that they dont give a crap if they trash the trails. that was the attitude I saw at the last dice run at humphrey for the quads and dirtbikes. its sad and they are mostly guys in their twenties like me, that gives me a harder time finding places to ride. sometimes I contemplate carrying a louisville slugger out on the trail and fixing the problem.

By Ted Stanfield (Ted) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi all, I even pick up a little trash when we are kayaking. Take only pictures and leave only LOW PSI TRACKS! I have room in my coot for a trash bag.

By John Schwab (Johnschwab) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have been part of the small group of volunteers that have put on the Humphrey events for about eight years now. It would take a whole page of text to describe the differences between the ATV events we USED to have and the AATV events we have now, but the highlights are this:
We take in less money for the fire dept because there are far less participants.We no longer DREAD event day. We no longer spend the entire next weekend picking up trash on the trail and grounds.
We have not had to hire a bulldozer to repair ruts on landowners property. We haven't had to stop any drunken morons from doing wheelies down the paved highway in front of the firehall. I haven't had to confront belligerent riders trailside (usually alone) who feel that our event is there personal free-for-all.
Don't get me wrong here. There were many many very nice ATV riders that came to our events and many volunteered their efforts to help us, but as usual one bad apple always seems to cancel out ten good ones.
Before each event at Humphrey Fire Chief John and I get up in front of the group and tell everyone what a pleasure it is to have our AATV events. We look forward to events now, even though they are still a lot of work. As long as this is the case the events will continue. It is up to all of us to "police" our peers.
By the way I am relatively new to AATVs only having owned my MAX 11 since July (I love it,by the way) but I have been an avid 4x4 quad rider for 15 years and I love that also.

By Joe Nash on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I may never find time to ride Humphrey but I'd like to meet all of you. Thanks for the post and the dice runs. Love reading about them and seeing the pictures. Everone please support Your area Volunteer Fire Dept. These men and women give of themselves to help others. They afford fire protection to more than we realize. Thanks for the posts and the pictures. Play safe, keep it clean, and AVOID GRAVITY ATTACKS!