Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through October 3, 2002	22

By Alan on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I had a similar power/smoking problem with the 18 hp Vanguard in my Coot. It seems that if a little oil on the foam air filter element is good, a lot is not good. The oil from the foam gets into the paper filter, the paper swells and won't let the engine breathe. Couldn't tell the paper was oily until I compared it with a new one. My best guess is that as the plugs foul one cylinder would quit firing intermittently due lack of air. Runs fine now.
Alan

By Dave Sanders Mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( dukhntr) On a scale of one to ten,,,the number ten meaning swims really well,,and, the number one,meaning swims very poorly,, what number for swiming ability would you rate the Gator tires on your Max IV ??

By dukhntr on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dave,

I guess that is hard to say, because I was comparing them to a half worn set of Goodyear SuperTerra Grips. Based on that comparison about half as good. If a used set was a 10, these would be about a 5 on the water paddle. But and 11-12 on mudpull ability. I remember my frontend raising out of the water when you got on the throttle with the old tires, It doesnt do that quite like it did .

Paul

By TIM O'KEEFE on Unrecorded Date: Edit

HEAR HEAR DAVE ON THE GATORS. THEY ARE THE BEST IN THE MUD, BUT POOR IN THE WATER. MY BIGFOOT RAISED THE FRONT ALSO IN THE WATER WHEN THROTTLED. NO WAY NOW!

By Mike on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I found a 2001 Max II 450T, 14hp Vanguard, that was never sold by a dealer. The dealer went out of business and the Max was repossessed by the finance company. The repo firm was selling it. The machine sat for two years in the showroom. The repo firm had the oil changed, new oil filter and air filter installed. The repo firm put about ten miles on it checking it out and found no problems.

The Max looked brand new, inside and out. I moved it around a little at just above idle speed and things were fine. After 5-10 minutes or so, at the behest of the repo man, I took it for a short ride to check it out. I went about 150 feet at moderate speed and noticed the carb stumbled a little. It still had old gas in the tank and I figured that the carb needed a good cleaning inside for gum deposits, no big deal I am thinking. I gave it a little more gas and I smelled something like hot rubber, like from a car doing a "burnout".

I then realized that the Max was doing double duty in abating mosquitos from the neighborhood.

The motor was sending out serious, steady blue smoke clouds. I turned around to get back to the repo mans place and the engine just about died. I blipped the throttle(like on a two stroke), the rpm came up again and so did the smoke.I got it back to where I started from.

The seller was stumped and he said it had never did that before. We thought it may have been a cracked ring or a stuck valve. After all it had set for two years and was never run until he started it and loaded it on the trailer.

I put my finger into the muffler outlet and it came out very oily but black like carbon deposits. In fact some oil had dripped out onto a tire.

The odor of hot burning rubber still stumps me though. It did not smell like burnt oil.

The engine was started several times afterwards and at idle, it did not smoke. It smoked heavy only when it was throttled up.

Had I read these posts beforehand, I may have bought it as he was willing to drop the price considerably. I did not buy it fearing it was going to cost me a lot of money to repair the engine.

I also would have known to ask him if the 10 miles or so that they drove it had been done before or after the oil change. If after the oil change then it should have smoked for him if the oil was over filled.

The seller was sincere and very honest.

I really don't think the problem started until I was there.

He was going to have the engine checked out and I probably missed out on a good deal since I was ignorant and did not know what I do now from reading these posts.

Any comments?

By Sam Keys on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sam Keys

Maybe something I can help with!

My wife "changed" oil in car one day. She put in one
gallon of oil TOO MUCH. It ran but it sure smoked.
We took out extra oil, everything was OK

Maybe the vanguard has too much oil too.

Sam Keys

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mike, I've ran across something like this several time with motors that sit. Old gas makes glue in engines. A mechanic friend was restoring a 57 T-bird. They rebuild the intire engine but just "freshened" the gas in the tank. Took it for a test drive and it started to miss. Turned out it was a stuck valve. When they tore it down it they had to hammer out most of the valves!!!! If the thing is still around I would buy it. I like deals like that; you can really pick them up cheap. How much did they want for it?

By Mike on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sam, I am hoping that's all it is, too much oil. I am waiting for the repo man to call me back and find out when the oil was changed. Thanks for your response.

Attex Bob, You got me thinking that maybe something in the old gas got stuck in one of the valves causing it to stick. I hope to talk to the repo man on Monday and see what he can tell me. Price was $4000.00 to start. After he saw the excessive oil and the engine problems, he was willing to drop the price down by 500.00. Thanks for your response.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Another possibility is that it might have been a fouled spark plug. The vanguard engine idles very smoothly on one cylinder, but has no power whatsoever. Gas from the non firing cylinder goes into the oil thus overfilling the oil - hence intense smoking.
Bad gas (or water in it) will usually cause backfiring and you will need the choke out almost full to keep it running. Also, it has been my experience that a stuck valve will keep the engine from running. A 1/2 quart of dextron tranny oil mixed in three or four gallons of gasoline will free up valves that have not yet stuck and is a good replacement for lead in older engines. Conklin makes a product called 4 power that is a very good carb cleaner and mixes in the gas that ungunks and keeps fuel systems clean.

By Mike on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks a lot Fred. The seller told me this morning that he had someone look at the carb and it looked like the float was stuck or sticking. He also talked to a small engine tech who said that a stuck float(from old gas) could somehow cause the oil getting into the gas and thence burning it in the cylinder causing the smoking. The tech told him to drain out the old gas, clean the carb and put something in called C foam or sea foam or something like that although I don't know what this stuff is. Either way, I am going to take a chance on it and buy it. I may be wrong Fred but I think I am getting a good deal on this Max. Other than the smoking, the machine inside and outside looks brand new. I will have to replace the throttle cable because the seller accidently broke the plastic where the cable attaches when it got caught while he was replacing the floor pan after first inspecting it.

Hey Fred, being a Max dealer, maybe you can tell me if this is true: the seller told me that when he first got this machine, he called a Max dealer and asked him what he would give him for it. The dealer asked for the serial number. The dealer told him that he had a Max II 450T with solid spline axles, Rawhide tires and roll bar. Well it has the Rawhides and the roll bar. My question is: can this information be determined by a dealer just from the serial number? If it has the solid splined axles, it would be great for me.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mike, The factory has the information on machines by serial number and a dealer (or anyone) can call the factory and get that information. You can tell if the axles are splined by looking at the part that is inside the machine. You can take your machine to a Briggs service center and have the carb cleaned if you or the seller doesn't want to work on it and it won't cost you very much. The plastic handle can be purchased by itself without changing the throttle cable.

By Mike on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks Fred, you have been very helpful.

By Mike on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Here is the update:

I took a chance and bought the machine from the repo man.

I inspected the fuel system and found so much green varnish from the old gas that I wondered how the engine ran at all. In fact the fuel lines were so bad in spots that the rubber was like gum. I cleaned the gas tank, boiled the carb and put in a rebuild kit. I replaced all of the fuel lines and the fuel pump and installed new spark plugs. After priming the fuel bowl, it started right up and runs great. The key to the smoking? It was obvious that when the oil was changed, the person that did it did not block off the hose from the crankcase to the fuel pump and it must have sucked the oil into the carb. A mighty fine Max II for the price I paid for it.

Fred: RI told me that they no longer use or sell the plastic throttle handle. They have only the new type metal handles. The bad news is that the new metal handles will not work with the old style heated throttle cable and one must buy a new cable also. At$60-$70 for the new setup, there has to be a better way.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mike, I wasn't aware of discontinuing the plastic throttle lever. I knew about the new metal base, but thought the plastic would stay available. The new design will take punishment a lot better and should keep a lot of the moisture out of the cable.

You can check with Richard and see if he has any plastic ones or contact some Max dealers. I sold my last one last week. I hope RI tries to get a metal one that will work with the old cables. Even though I hate the plastic handles, lots of people have learned how to live with them without breaking them.

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have one of the old style throttles. It is brand new. Email me at bprice@ktis.net

MaxRules

By lawpressman on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I purchased a max from a guy and when i got it home it started smoking bad. Found out it had a extra quart of oil in it from a recent oil change. I drained the extra oil out and it still smoked, found out you must also install a new air filter, because it was oil soked and it will draw oil up thru the crank case tube. SO DONT OVER FILL THE OIL OF A VANGARD MOTOR.