By Brett Bonner ( - 65.185.150.3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I'm not in Kansas anymore with the Max IV.

Occasional sharp bangs finally revealed a broken axle bolt when the right rear bearing destructed. The problem is the collateral damage. The axle is "spun," and teeth are damaged on the double sprocket. What is worse is the absolutely crappy design of two set screws locktited in. To get them out, the manual said to heat to 400 degrees F for five minutes. That didn't work. I even tried heating to cherry red with a cutting torch I still had to drill the last one out.

Here are the questions:

1. Can I repair the few damaged teeth on the double sprocket by adding some metal with my MIG and shaping with my hand grinder? I'm sure I can do this fairly accurately. I just worry about the increased hardness of the teeth. I could anneal them a bit with my torch.

2. Can I repair the sprocket by Helicoiling the sprocket and using something like a 1/4" grade 8 bolt with Locktite instead of the stupid set screws?

Thanks - and I need quick answers or I need to order additional parts . . .

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Brett, I am fixing a similar problem on my '98 Max IV. RI no longer uses a double rear sprocket, but rather two separate. This saves money when one gets chewed up and the other is still good. Mine has two sprockets, each with set screws. The large trans sprocket had only one set screw, came out easy. The other smaller sprocket had a double set screw, and both were barely hand tight. Be sure to use a very good set of allan wrenches when trying to remove set screws. I found my old Popular mechanics set would strip them, while my Craftsman set will remove them easily.
I personally never rig up my stuff by trying to salvage broken parts. Fix it right and never look back. The pair of sprockets is $110.45. The most recent upgrade to the splined axle system is using C-clips to hold the sprockets in place. They also have a grease zerk so you can lube the splines under the sprockets. This upgrade of course requires a new axle, but it fixes the sprocket problem on the new Maxs.

By Motown's (Bigwolf) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brett,

Both of your ideas should work! You can reapair the broken teeth by welding and re-grinding them back into shape. In a perfect situation you would want to use a welding rod material similar in hardness to the sprocket material and then anneal it well when done welding.

It is always better to replace with new parts when and if you can afford to do that.

If you are wanting a better solution for locking the sprockets to the axle shafts that will not ever fail, then you may want to think about taking a set of sprockets and having them custom machined and use taper locks instead. It would require a few bucks and some extra time to complete. I have used taper locks for many years in many applications on machines and have never seen one fail ever. The nice thing about taper locks is, it does not matter what type of shaft it is used on, smooth shaft, or splinned shaft, it still locks down the same way and will not slip.

One other alternative would be to install some locking collars on either side of the sprockets if there is enough room to do so. The additional locking collars would help stop the sprockets from walking when and if the set screws loosen up or fail. The locking collars would only work for a while and would eventually allow the sprocket to walk over time if the sprocket comes loose.

I can assure you, if you find a way to apply taper locks, you will never need to look at or think about sprockets being loose ever again, except when it comes time to replace them due the teeth being worn out.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brett, You can try all that. I would anneal your work (maybe let it cool in a bucket of hot sand). The question you need to answer is what is your time worth if you have to buy new parts anyhow (an rear sprocket assemble is about $110.00). If it were my decision, I would go with new parts, but I'm not able to do what you seem confident in doing. Having things strong and to run true is the important part - I'm not knowledgeable enough in metal work to know if you can rebuild sprockets, but I would guess, yes. I understand that RI has gone to one long set screw, so the bolt should work fine.

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by broken axle bolt and the axle being "spun". You have splined axles don't you?

By roadwolf ( - 64.229.201.79) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

motown; wrong, wrong, wrong, every thing you say is always wrong!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

if the teeth are still there but chewed a bit go ahead and weld them, migs don't get that hard anyway, if you can file it with rat tail file it is good as repaired, but this will not replace teeth that are totaly gone or worn away, just the smashed ones.

the small machine shop i deal with simply cuts sprockets and axel hubs off with a lathe,
hubs and sprokets can be bored on the lathe also for no run out when asembled,
my guy welds them on the lath as well!
so thats what you can try.

now as for set screws ~ SCREW THEM!
drill for next size keeping in mind your going to run a tap in the hole for threds and replace the stupid set screws with a good quality allen or hex head bolt!
i have sean this done by tim schotanus and it dose work (mudbuster)

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have a correction to my last post. The larger 34 tooth sprocket is no longer available by itself. The new machines use a double sprocket, not singles. Brett has the newer sprocket set up with the old fasteners. The brand new Maxs have a double sprocket held in place by snap rings instead of set screws. The set screw double sprockets are still available, but the ideal set up is the snap rings. To use the snap rings on an older Max, you either need a new axle or have grooves machined into your old axle.

By Brett Bonner ( - 12.146.117.254) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks guys - the teeth are all there - even in the height, just beat up on one side on one gear. It should be easy to weld up and shape.

What I mean by the "spun" axle is that the inside bearing race (or something) twisted on the axle and grooved the end. No big deal. It just shouldn't have done that.

I appreciate all the other advice.

As far as the bolts go, the 3/8 inch bolts will first be replaced with grade 8. If I break another one, then we will go with 7/16 grade 8. At some point, it will stop.

By hilbile on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have had the exact same problem on my 98 max. the first time i fixed the sproket, had my machine shop weld new teeth on it worked for about 6mo. then the welded teeth broke off and trashed the drive chain. I ordered a new double sprocket from brandon and new drive chains for both sides. now the other sprocket under the motor keeps getting loose and walking on the shaft. I fixed i by going to a farm and home picked up 2 locking collors with 2 big set screws on them. I had them cut down so I could fit them on both sides of the sprocket and have had no furhter problem. With the big set screws you can get the locking collors very tight with out breaking the allen wrench. Still looking for a place to get the sprokets from once I find a supplier I will just buy the sprockets and have my machine shop cut the sprocket off the hub and weld on the new sprocket this should be less expensive than the $100+ for the double sprocket from RI.

ps anyone in NE missouri with a max that wants to get to gether and ride??

By brett bonner ( - 65.185.150.3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

First, I want to thank Motown (Bigwolf). I have found his advice in numerous posts to be spot on every time.

Second - I could not be more fed up with Recreative Industries. With regards to this thread, several things have happened.

The parts list I paid for is WRONG. It says the axle bearings are all the same, but actually the outers are HC207-20 and the inners were 206. Other documents in the factory manual are wrong as well. Because I bought parts on the part list, I did not have the needed parts. I bought all 207’s instead of the mix. I missed a great duck hunting weekend.

But even if I had the parts, what should be a simple 1 hour job by perhaps using adding a few more dollars of production parts and grease instead turns into a weekend of nothing but torture. The entire design problem of the axle to sprocket mounting is horrible engineering. In fact, the entire axle design is bad. The use of 3/16 inch allen screws is abysmal engineering. Even if you heat the Allen screws, the crappy components they use will strip. I have had to drill out every one. I also had to slide hammer off the double sprocket. It should have zerk fitting if for no other reason to keep it from rusting to the splines! Instead of being able to completely remove and replace all components needed on an axle in about an hour, it is reasonable to prepare to spend about 8 hours for each. It takes about 7.5 hours to disassemble and .5 hours to rebuild each axle. That is after you pull the engine and possibly the T20.

Yes, my max does things no other vehicle is asked to do. But it should be designed to do that. However, I have had to rebuild the T20, deal with numerous carb and fuel pump issues, replace an engine, as well as suffering idler sprocket failures and rear inner bearings, leading to other sprocket issues, helicoil axles, etc. This is ludicrous. I’ve replace numerous diamond shifters until I designed, fabricated and installed my spring loaded shift connectors. I could understand all of this if I didn’t maintain the machine – but this thing is like a helicopter. You need to be prepared for 3 hours of maintenance for every 1 of driving. Honestly, all of my 50 and 60’s British Sports Cars are far more reliable that this thing. And generally, those cars are considered the least reliable mechanical things of all time.

The problem is the engineering/design. Chains should have oilers. Chain tension devices should be self-adjusting or at least with adjustment mechanisms. There should be more zerk fittings. There should be real axle seals instead of just depending on bearings being somewhat watertight. Cleaning the machines is almost impossible, but it seems to be necessary for a reasonable life. There should be some clearance to clean it out – but there is limited or none. Is an eye toward maintainability and service in a design too much to ask for?

And it’s just not me – luckily, you can read about all the problems and solutions you might have on this web site. In fact, the only solace in this whole mess is the support by the Route6x6 community.

Well, I have both rear axles out now. I’ve rebuild the one sprocket with mashed teeth. I still have some work to do before I can put it back together.

I’m sorry for this rant, but I’m really fed up.

By funtothemax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I will agree with you there should have been some better design. That is why funtothemax.com have designed self oilers and other useful updates that most can install there own self even have a unit for a Argo to make it a full 6 wheel drive with out hurting anything wile turning all though the web site is new there are still a lot more to come any ideas are welcome Thanks mark@funtothemax.com

By hellonsixwheels@aol.com ( - 152.163.100.201) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hay bret big wolf is totaly right about taper locks and locking collars ive noticed the two peice locks do the best and dont mar the axel i have had a 670 rotax on my 920 lb custom built max and never had a prolbem even doing wheel stands on the rear wheels the taper locks are awsome but a stock frame cant hold chain adjusters from getting riped right out mine are bolt on with a bolt and lock nut to heep them from working up but i doubt a 4cycle would do this kind of damage because 5000 rpm is i belive above and beyond its limits i have 2 cycle and about a 5000 stall in my clutch and love my 2 stroke twin so depending how hard you abuse yer machine you will have to decide what suites your driving habits best i pefer bullet prof any time good luck i have pics of my machine if you want too see it email me at hellonsixwheels@aol.com my name is albert

By roadwolf ( - 65.95.117.25) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ok ok, abbott and costella, bevis and butthead, now mowtown and bonner!

By Brett Bonner ( - 199.82.243.71) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The saga continues.

I took the bearings to Memphis Bearing and Supply. It’s a large supply house with some real experts. They said the type of eccentric locking collar on the Max outer bearing should only used in unidirectional applications. It should not be used on shafts that reverse. If these guys are correct, and I believe they are, then the factory application is wrong.

So, I have decided to go with the standard type of bearing with cupped machined bolts in place of the set screws. It turns out at the big industrial concern I work at, the set screws are replaced as a design standard with cupped machine bolts.

I should have it back together tonight and appropriately beefed up. In the interim, I think I will just pull the engine on a periodic basis to closely inspect the rear axles.

Roadwolf, I have conversed with Mowtown over email. I found him to be a charitable, nice guy. If you choose to cast me in his lot, I am honored. I am truly delighted by the congenial camaraderie I have shared on Route6x6.

Now as for you Mr. Roadwolf, thank you for your input anyway. I do not know what particular credentials you have but I'm sure the Route6x6 community would benefit from that knowledge. Would you please share with us what your credentials are? I have looked at your previous posts and you have said some most interesting things. I think we would all benefit from – if not your name – just why you have such expertise?

By Bigwolf ( - 68.40.23.217) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Brett I have no idea who "Roadkill" is, or what his problem is. I do not recall provoking him to cause the type of responses that he has posted.

I would not even bother paying any attention to "Roadkill", he does a fine job of showing people just how dumb he really is. Each time he opens his mouth with his infamous ten words or less one liners, he further reinforces his case of utter stipidity. "Roadkill" you are noninated as the king of the lawn mower engines, you dumb S.O.B.

You truely redefine the term low life! The best thing you can do to help your self, is just unplug yourself from the internet, and then proceed to remove your self from the human gene pool. That is about all you are good for you dumb S.O.B.

By Louisiana mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( funtothemax )

I recently "tried" to visit your website, and see exactly what you had to offer the amphibious community,but to my great disappointment,nothing on your webpage is activated or even works to access it?

Whats up with that?

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I finished the repair on my Max IV today. The new double sprocket was a much better design and I think it will hold up well. The splines were extremely tight and I had to drive the axle through it with a hammer. I tightened the set screw in the appropriate axle hole and I think it'll hold. Two new bearings on that axle has it rolling smooth. The old inner bearing was broke open so I could see what was going on in there. It looks like the Sahara desert in there... not one bit of lube.
Now back to reading about how Roadwolf should kill himself per BigWolf's instructions. Haha... I think you guys are taking him to serious.

By roadwolf ( - 64.229.203.181) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

oh yes motown, you definately know who i am, or rather you should have known!

By Brett Bonner ( - 199.82.243.73) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I completed my repairs as well. Basically, I did away with the shims, drilled new detent holes for the double gears, and used 5/16 inch bolts to hold the cluster gears in position along the shaft.

I also talked to the factory service. They have changed the design on the rear bearings for easier lube access. This is a welcome change. The have also changed the method of retaining the position of the sprockets by milling grooves around the drive shafts and using snap rings. Another welcome change.

However, I find other problems with the basic design. I happen to be a Mechanical Engineer P.E. so I dusted off the old Marks Handbooks. The inner bearing is the wrong application. It is not designed for thrust loads like used in the Max. It needs to be a tapered roller design. Actually, this is should be an easy substitution for a sealed bearing. This is eventually why we all have problems with the axle bolts and sprockets. The inner bearing starts to play, letting the axle slip inwards and outwards. This axle slip starts letting the set screws hollowing out the locating holes on the shaft. More movement starts leading to rapid failure. A tapered roller design (simple substitution) with an extended axle using an axle nut would resolve this problem and securely hold the axle in position (more difficult).

Worse, the bearings used on the outside axle are not designed to be operated submerged. Ever. Certain types are suitable for agricultural use, but not operation underwater. The Peer bearing that came in my machine were not even rated for ag use. Futher, using the bearing for a water seal is equally problematic (read impossible) for grease retention. Unless I can find a miracle bearing, design changes will be necessary. A real shaft seal and carrier will be needed at a minimum. If I can find the appropriate carrier, the existing outbearing will not be operating submerged (unless there is deep water in the vehical). A two piece or packing seal would be nice for replacement without removing the axle. Then the changes will be minimum and the existing outer bearing design will mostly work.

My only experience is with this year and style ATV. However, if they are all designed this way, it is NO WONDER that they have the reputation for trouble and poor reliability.

This is a project for after hunting season.

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The inboard bearing is not intended as a thrust bearing. The original design used a bronze bushing. This is adequate for the overhanging radial loads the axle sees. The outboard bearing sees the thrust load . The outboard bearing should be locked securely to the shaft with the excentric lock collar on the bearing. The excentric is stronger than the set screw locks as it has a larger locking surface for thrust loads. Also if the axles are pitted and corroded the excentrics wont work. Another solution is to groove the shaft an both sides of the outboard bearing and use a spirial snap ring.
If you want to increase the water performance of the outboard bearing an Argo bearing retainer and seal assembly will probably fit. You will have to position the lock collars on the inside of the body. Argo uses a 4 bolt retainer but the bolt spacing is the same as a 3 bolt retainer for 2 of the bolts. You will have to drill 1 new hole in the retainer or 2 in the frame.

By funtothemax ( - 65.25.4.228) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mudbug it seems your the only one that has had a problem I believe it's on your end I'm sorry for your unconvinced please forgive us Mark
www.funtothemax.com

By Louisiana mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( funtothemax )

Ok,I went back and tried to veiw the pics on your website,and this time I got to veiw them all.

The problem I had the last time I went to your website,was that I tried to click "near" where it says pics,and not on the pic box itself. My bad.

By paul ( - 24.75.42.10) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brett, as a Max and Argo owner and an engineer as well, you should get a job at RI or ODG. I guess their designs are wrong, eventhough they are similar and have been getting us around where nothing else can for 35 years or so. That is all the time I have to waste on this post.

By Louisiana mudbug on Unrecorded Date: Edit

( Brett Bonner )

After reading about your frustrations with pitted axles,and ruined bearings, ect.( that were really never designed for water use ) It might be a very good idea to give all zerk grease fittings a couple of shots marine grease, after each and every deep water ride.

This would then displace any water that may have found its way into the bearing, and slowly over time corrode it.

This might seem like over kill to some, but maybe to be on the safe side, and not take any chances on ruining any of your axles, from lots of mud and water use,it might be a very good idea to completely replace all bearings on each axle each spring? This would be good insurance against bearing and axle related failures.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ooh come on now, this little problem has bin long established.
postings go all the way back to the beginnings of route6x6 concerning "bearings as seals"
brets just stateing again what has long bin exepted as truth. AND
without some preshure from consumers thered be no inprovements att all!
this is the problem in a nut shell,cheepest soloution to the outer bearing holder are catelog items (cheep ass steal stampings)
and since they were invented thats as far as they ever got.
we ask and ask for real seals on axels but alas
they never listen,
but seariosly paul, if your a better engineer than bret,
you know in some of the same catelogs there are seals for shafts that would protect bearings,
and of the something like 150 aatv manufacturesers in the 70's many DID have real seals!
hey if these two companies don't want to including
them in there intro line they at least should be ofered as options or upgrades threw there parts department, look anyone with a machine shop could just wip something up to hold bearing and seal.
it's not like bearings cant run under water.
it's just the ones that seal the hull from the water that keeps them boyent that causes the preshure diferences that drive the water threw them.
in the case of bearing extentions it seams because the water psi is equel on both sides of the outer bearing it dosent seam to become contaminated, also they dont seam as likely to seaze on the shaft as the one at hull dose,

i think brandon posted something about a year ago sugesting recreativs was about to come forth with a seal. and yet.......

By mark (Maxmark) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

After all this dicussion, I'm almost afraid to ride my max II!!!! How can these things be this fragile and still be sold as amphibious?

By frank o ( - 205.188.116.14) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

recreativs could build a hell of a lot better 6x6 and they should start right now they know that there are so many things that should made either stronger and or alot better and the bearing issuie is sad hell i put needdle bearings in my jack shafts taperlocks 4 frame rails 6 inculding outside rails and so many improvemrnts to many to mention and i can run it 10 times harder than yer stock max and not have to work on it very often except lube chains and grease it every ride so is the people at recreatives just greeedy for there big salarys well they must be ok with a less than the best 6x6 if max and argo would take the best things from both machines they would be a lot closer but still no cigar just my opinon a max rider or i guess a t20 transplant donor with max wheel base n well thanks fer the great T20 people its awsome

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

frank o,
if you have pic's and such im very interested in your tryed n true mods, i have upgraded and modifyed my aatv's and used 440cc engine for years, in my max i had troubles with the chain adgusters ect..ect. that i have fixed,
but my fraim is bending and i still have trouble with stamped flangets going oversized on outer bearings ect..ect..
i might have found ansers to these problems by know if not for cronick shortage of cash.
but i know it is time now to become more agressave in my maintanance.
your help might help catch me up!
thanks in advance

By Brett Bonner ( - 65.185.150.3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jerseybigfoot - Thanks for your observations. In discussions with Recreative, they relayed they consider the inboard bearing to principally be the thrust/locking system. Recreative thinks the current design it is fine now. Many users agree it is an improvement. My Max has the splined shafts and 1 rev from the latest design. While it is an improvement, it is still not correct by a long shot. The eccentric locking collar should not be used for a locking system, (although it obviously contributes in some major way as you noted by your description by the original design). My Max’s failures are fully explainable by inadequate design. Frank O's own changes provide anecdotal evidence the design can be improved. There apparently were production designs out there that included the mods suggested.

Frank o - I would like some pictures, part numbers, anything for your mods.

David Berger - Thank you for your comments. Improving the marque is the sign of a true loyalist. If I can turn up something workable that will springboard your maintenance, I'll let you know.

Paul - I love my max. I’m very proud of what it can do. It does things every week that leave people's heads shaking in amazement. I just wish it wouldn’t break so frequently when doing it!!! This weekend alone, it launched a 18 foot duck boat when trucks couldn't do it (the trailer tong kept be back wheels down on the flat road while the front floated so the max could push it back), it helped pull a 4 wheel drive Dodge Ram with rear posi-trac out of the mud, and after my son stuck my Grand Cherokee with QuadratracII, rescued it's own tow vehicle! I keep saying I will not treat it like this, but there never seems to be a good alternative. That said, I will improve the product every chance I get. I already gave Recreative an unlimited license to use my shifters if they choose to (those shifters have made an incredible difference). After all, every vehicle is a compromise. But because some of us wish to customize or improve our vehicles in some way doesn't mean we are disloyal to the brand.

Please don't let my honest desire to improve my machine offend anyone.

By BrettBBonner ( - 199.82.243.74) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

After replacing the inner and outer bearings in the rear axle, less than 2 weeks later, I notice a clicking from the front. Low and behold, the axle bolts have snapped on the MaxIV. The middle ones are still fine.

There must be something to the advice that when you lose one bearing on one axle, go ahead and replace all of the bearings on all axles.

It seems I can't make it though a duck season without spending an inordinate amount of maintenance time on this vehical. I'm just about to give up.

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Which axle bolts are broken? I know you have splined axles, so I don't know what parts you could have broken.

By Brett Bonner ( - 199.82.243.71) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The axle bolt in the center on the end of the axle inboard of the inboard bearing. It is the principle way the axle is held in place for lateral movement.

By Eugene Kochnieff ( - 210.49.118.165) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Brett, Some thoughts on bolts, I seem to remember when i was studying that it is generally a mistake to use grade 8 bolts just because thay are stronger. Stong does not mean tough. A grade 5 bolt may be better in a shock loading application because as bolts become stronger they often become more brittle.

Bolts are designed to be under tension not in shear so a high tensile grade 8 bolt will be super strong under tension but may fail under shear particularly if shock loaded.

By Brett Bonner ( - 199.82.243.73) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Eugene - From my studies in Engineering, I do remember that you are correct. A case hardened bolt is somewhat weaker in shock loading than a standard grade. I just don't remember what the grades designate! I should have looked it up before I used what I used.

But regardless, it's the factory bolts that broke. Not the bolts I used to replace the factory bolts.