By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i have heard about splitting the t-20 by adding another shift lever which gives the capability to run one bank of tires in forward while running the other bank in reverse at the same time. has anyone tried this? if so, how is the t-20 holding up? any draw backs?

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I haven't tried it yet, but I know a guy that has a Swamp Fox and his is set up that way. It works great for him and he never and I mean never gets stuck because of having both sticks.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i just bought my 02 max iv (w/ 16 hrs) a few days ago. i wanted to get some information on doing this before i cut up my shifting bar and reached the point of no return.

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry, do a search on this site about the T-20, there is some info on doing this. People that have tried this come to the conclusion that there is no advantage to spliting the T-20. In all of my riding I have never had to split the tranny once.

There is no adverse problems by doing this to a T-20, so split away if you want!!!!

Easy to do on an Attex. Just cut the shift handle off and cut the shift bar in half, and weld another shift handle on. Should be about the same on a Max.

Have fun with you new Max!!!!!

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The only problem I see in having two shifters is making sure both are completely engaged. The t-20 is hard to shift at times and if it is not fully engaged, it can do internal damage. I would be afraid that one side would not get completely engaged and tear things up. I think one would want a spring loaded system like the old hustler has to help ensure full engagement. I might add that I don't think performance would be affected much one way or the other -if one will be aware of his situation and environment, it is very easy to back out of a situation and find another spot. I can't imagine any situation where stopping and shifting one side into reverse would be a benefit (having the option to go into reverse without stopping could be a good thing, but it would be dangerous in most situations). On slow, heavy hydraulic machines, instant reverse is workable, but if you have any speed and agility, instant reverse would cause many rollovers.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, no offence but many of us don't simply want to back otu of a situation and find another spot. We want to plow right through that obstacle and don't want to have to find another way to go unless absolutely necessary. Don't mean this in a harsh way.

david keeso

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hi fred, this past july i had a chance to borrow a max II that had this shifter mod,
bob luthart's mod was like a factory job,
it was in fact a pain hitting two shifters each time for normal fwd n back, but if or when you get hung up in that bad spot the extra utility will come in verry handy,
i remember more than one time i have goten my maxII hung up and if only i cold have adjusted my trany for one side fwd and the other side backward id have got out easyer,
ok when your rideing with a groop and sombody can tow you but some times i was alone, im getting too old to be picking up the end of the vehicle and shoveing it to one side or another in atempts to free it, the shifter thing is on my list of things too do some day,

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i took my new max down to a friends to show him what an aatv looks like and go for a ride. we went down to his pond for a test. while driving down the levee to the water i decided not to go in the water at that spot. i thought i had room to turn around but slid in the pine straw between some trees. i didnt have much room to back up or pull forward so i tried to skid steer around but the tires would just spin in the straw. i finally was able to pull forward a few inches and back up a few inches several times (which is time consuming with a new t-20) enough to clear the trees and skid steer around to drive out. i feel like if my t-20 was split i could have turned around with ease and driven out.

i did a search and found some usefull information. i believe i will benefit from this modification. it seems the t-20 will hold up as long as it is shifted properly. if i am on a hill and want to turn around i can leave one side in, use it for a brake, put the other side in reverse and turn around without having to take the entire tranny out of gear and totally rely on the parking brake. also doing an about face will be easier and take less room than skid steer. i do alot of driving in tight places and will use this mod more than most.

i am going to load up the max, head over to my max dealer, order some shifter parts and get this mod under way. duck season is right around the corner, i had better hurry. thanks for the information guys.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David Kesso, No offense, but I don't think you ride in tough terrain or take your machine where no other machine can get to (you drive an Argo so I know you don't go where most max owners can go - your machine is just too heavy). And an Argo driver does not have the same option of backing out that a Max driver has (all the argo's weight is in front) because the argo is not designed to allow the driver to unweight most of the machine and put his/her weight where it will do the most good. For example, If I go too far into a mud hole, I can always get out of the machine and operate it from outside to back the machine out if just getting in the back (or over the motor in a max II) doesn't shift the balance of weight enough. I have, several times, pulled into a "v" gully and had to have my passenger (or myself) get in the back to be able to back out. There is just no way the front heavy argo can get out of such situations. If you are just going to plow ahead regardless of the type of obstacle, you had best have a winch with a couple hundred feet of cable and carry a lot of rope because you will get stuck and you will have to get out by yourself or walk twenty or more miles to get home. I've never had a winch on a max I have used and except for the first week of max driving (until I learned how to drive it), I've never been stuck bad enough that I couldn't get the machine out by myself. When I was learning, had I known what to do, I would not have been stuck. Just for the record, I carry 120 feet of web strap to enable me to use a wheel or two as a winch if the need ever arises.

Sorry to have to belittle your argo, but because of design, there are just a lot of times your machine will come up short.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

while i was at the max dealer i got some great ideas.

-by ordering an extra shifter handle and shifter rod, with a little welding and some 3/4 all-thread i should have a factory looking tranny mod.

-we also talked about mounting a chain oiler, with a valve to adjust flow, on each side of the motor compartment and running a drip tube to the primary chain and running another drip tube to the middle of the machine with a y fitting to oil the front and rear chains where they hit the center axle sprockets. sweet....

-dual 500gph bilge pumps(one in each channel).

-a wrap around front bumper that will give me something solid to mount the winch to besides the plastic between the lights, a good place to put the trolling motor mount and a place to mount the extra lights.

-dual batteries to handle the extra lights and trolling motor.

-floor supports for the front floor pannel (just like the 2003's)

-split collars to keep the rear sprockets in place if the set screw fails (cheap insurance, i got to look at the damage caused by a sheared set screw- broken t-20 shaft, bent and chewed up sprocket, damaged chain, bent frame).

this should keep me busy for a while.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Can't say i have maxing experiance-- and im going to just leave this conversation open so i don't bash others and their machines. I do respect your input though.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

oh yea... i almost forgot...

-back up lights (i think i saw some clear lights, that match the red lights on the back, at one of the auto parts houses)

-removable pontoons to stabilize a four person load, that store behind the roll cage when not in use (i spent most of the day doing r&d on this and have a workable design with most of the parts including the pontoon hulls)

By argoguru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey fred,
If you have never had to be pulled out in your max then you are not riding in very nasty terrain. 2 months off the board and it is still the same stuff coming out of montana...

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred--I would have to disagree with you on the part about not getting stuck in a Max or anything for that matter. You can get anything stuck in the mud if you try difficult enough terrrian in your machine. Sure you can probably avoid a nasty hole and go around it but where is the fun in not finding the extreme limits of your machine. The first thing I would advise any rider to do is install a rollbar and seatbelts along with the biggest and toughest winch you can. You should now be self sufficent on your own to test your machine. You will get stuck and you will more than likely break something at some point! Have fun in these things and see what they are really capable of. That's my two cents from experience.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

argoguru & John M., I didn't say I haven't been stuck. I said I haven't been stuck bad enough that I couldn't get out by myself. I usually am by myself (only one machine) and many miles from my outfit so I am a little more cautious than one might be if he has a buddy to help. You also obviously missed the part where I carry 120 feet of web strap. I have the best winch in the world (if my machine is running). I wrap the web strap around the front or rear tires so I can pull with both front wheels or both back wheels (or one or the other if just a little pull is necessary). At this point I pretty much know when I see a situation whether I can go through/over/up with ease or caution is in order. I also carry my folding 8' aluminum loading ramps which allows me to get up some banks that would otherwise be impassable. I use my max to get places. I require a lot from my machine, but I approach everything very easy (I have a rebuilt back that isn't very good). I really don't think you fellas who live in the eastern two thirds of the country know what tough terrain is.

The point of this discussion is splitting the t-20. My point is that it is possible, but not necessary. I don't think it is a good idea and if it is to be done, it should be done so one has to unfasten something to get the shifters to work independently. Except in very isolated cases would this ability add anything to the performance of the machine and if used without care, could destroy one's t-20 in short order (there is a reason it is not factory issue).

By John Martin on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred--Every part of the US, the world for that matter has tough terrain for a AATV that can't be attempted and overcome even with 120 ft of web strap and 8 foot ramps plus a strong back, you just have to go out riding and find it and not just go around it. I'm sure where you are from you have tough terrain and I can assure you that there is plenty more tough terrain out there in the other 2/3 of the US that you don’t know about.
And back to the point of this discussion, if the "tough" terrain that you're riding in requires a modified T-20 that is split to have an advantage in that terrain then one might want to modify their T-20 to work to their needs. Many modifications made to production machines were never intended by the manufactures but these modifications have greatly improved the ability of the machine under certain circumstances of tough terrain, ie, vehicle lockers, larger tires, larger engines, etc. If you modify your machine you should be capable of maintaining your unique machine and most of all be that more familiar with your improved design and use the precautions that must be taken to keep your machine in running order. I would only split a T-20 if you have a real good knowledge of the machine and are capable of doing the conversion and repairs to the machine yourself or if you’re loaded $$$, just find yourself a knowledgeable mechanic to fix your machine and have at it.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i dont think the mod would be a pain at all.
a person would not have to shift both levers to back up every time. if i needed to back up i would just shift one lever, turn around in my tracks and drive the desired direction. i dont see why you would ever use both levers unless it was a mud situation and there was a need to back straight out (i cant see that being a regular occurrence) or to unload the max from a trailer, thats it. i cant think of any other reason. (i dont pull trailers with my max so that one is out the window)

i have talked with a person that split the t-20 in his max II and he said it was easier to shift. he recommended the modification and also said the max II was easier to modify than the max IV (good for max II owners-bad for me).

i dont think i will do the shifter locking thing montana fred is talking about, i can see that being a pain. besides, the modification i plan on doing puts the new split shifter on the opposite side of the steering laterals from the factory shifter.

fred... i dont understand what you mean when you talk about shifting into reverse while still moving. why would it be an advantage? why would it be necessary? i am new to this, i only have 3 hours of 6 wheeling under my belt, am i missing something? (not trying to stir things-just wanting to learn)

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ACTUALY THERES WHERE FRED WAS NOT PAYING ATENTION AND GOT CONFUSED MAYBE, HE BEGAN ANSERING THE QUESTION ABOUT SPLIT T-20'S AND SOMEHOW GOT INTO A RESPONCE ON SOME OTHER TYPE OF TRANES,THE T-20 CANOT BE SHIFTED ON THE FLY- IT MUST BE AT A STOP OR IT WILL GRIND THE GEARS, NOW IF ALMOST AT A STOP AND YOU CAN STOMICK THE GRINDING NOISE THAN YOU MIGHT PULL IT OFF A FEW TIMES, BUT IT IS UNWISE TO SAY THE LEAST,
THOUSE OTHER STYLE TRANYS HE SPOKE OF DO HAVE THERE ADVANTAGES THOGE AND ARE SUPREOR TO THE T-20 IN THIS, BUT IT'S JUST AS GOOD TO STOP 1ST AND SHIFE LOGICLY FOR YOUR CIRCOMSTANCES AND THEM PROCEDD, SO A SPLIT IS A FORWARD THINKING PERSONS MOD, DO IT.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry, You could very well be right that shifting one side only would make shifting easier (I have never operated a split t-20). I just think as you get more time behind the sticks that you will get the feel of the machine. Most people don't shift into reverse very often. It appears to me that you think this will be a great thing, but I think as you gain experience that you will wonder why you did it (that's the reason I think it should be an invisible modification). There is a learning curve on being able to get the most from a max (or any skid steer machine). It takes about twenty five hours to break in the machine and about fifty to break in the driver. Most broken stuff happens in that fifty hour time span.

The instant reverse is available on hydrostatic machines and some older mechanical systems like the original Dixon lawn mower. When you move a steering lateral back, it goes into reverse rather than brake. Of course you do have to stop going forward before the machine will go backwards (lots of wheel slip if going forward very fast). The advantage of this is faster forward and back (with a skid steer loader, one can move almost twice as much material by not having to stop and change gears both directions) and in a mud, rut situation you don't loose all your momentum (rocking the machine) by having to shift gears. It also might allow you to get different footing, but I think it would just allow you to get more stuck. That is what I think will happen with a split t-20. By the time you have lost traction and are stopped allowing you to shift one side into reverse, your machine will have settled into the goop. You will spin your tires in reverse a little, shift the other side and spin those tires a little and you will be completely stuck. Once your machine is high centered, there is nothing you can go but get out and push or winch. What I do in a mud situation is to enter at a constant speed (not real slow, but not real fast)- if I feel I am losing momentum and footing, I am prepared to shift into reverse immediately and by the time my machine has stopped moving forward, I am moving backwards. If I can't go backwards, I stop immediately and get out of the machine. Often, it will back out because the machine is 200 pounds lighter and if it doesn't, I push with my knees as I operate the sticks from in front of the machine. If I have passengers, I let them stay in until I am sure I cannot get us out which in that case everyone has to get out and I repeat the procedure. Like I said earlier, I am often alone when I am doing such with the Max. I have found that if there is some vegetation, I am OK. It is when the water is a foot or so deep with nothing growing in it that I have trouble. I will admit that I do not go in an out of mud holes just to see if I can get through. If an area has had lots of traffic, I go in real slow to check if it is firm enough to hold the machine and if not, I go on the edge or find a new spot. If the goop is real soupy and deep, a max will not go through it. I embarrassed myself badly at a mud bog competition many years ago. They had it deep enough that only one modified jeep with big tires and big engine could reach support and got through it. For the AVTs, they made it so soupy that it was almost water. The machines that hit it fast got about twenty feet out in the goop. I hit it full speed and went about eight feet into the goop With all the bottom area dragging and no support for the tires, I was stuck tight. I have never gone into the mud fast again and if it is too thick to swim through and too soft to hold the machine, I stay out of it.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, I have to say Im on your side with the mud thing. Dispite our conversation a few days ago about people just wanting to blast through not worrying about getting stuck etc. I am not one to seek mud. If it looks like I can get through, I'll give it a shot but I almost always end up spinning at some point or other and lately, I have been extremely stuck to the point where I had to use a massive rock as my winch anchor and it took so much force to get the ARGO free, the rock that I was winched to moved about 3 cm and the winch cable got stuck under it. After I finally got unstuck, I spent another 15 minutes trying to free the winch cable from under a rock that I couldn't even budge. After yanking the winch out a but by going fast in reverse until the cable snapped tight, (not snapped broken) and loosened a bit, i was able to move the argo to another angle where the cable was stuck and break free with the cable still in tact. I am going to really put the ARGO to the mud test this weekend when Im at the cottage. I am going to where a new road is being cut and its been raining up there for days now so its a mud soup. I can't wait to see how stuck I get.

By barryhh3f on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have a heavily used MAX 4 (RIM) that has a split trany. When I bought it I thought all Maxes had dual trany controls. Mine has cable and knobs instead of leavers. The knobs are mounted upright between the front seats. The bench front seat was pulled out and replaced with individual marine type seats. I bought a new Bigfoot last month and have the Max up for sale. If anyone wants pictures of the hardware arrangement for the cable controls e-mail me. Next time I show it to someone I will photograph the mod and e-mail them to interested parties.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

fred,
you may be right. i try to ride in the evening when i get home but i dont always have the time. i am learning the abilities of the machine (i rode thru some really thick brush that i couldnt take my wheeler thru yesterday...coool). i feel myself gaining confidence in the machine's ability to navigate different types of terrain. i have yet to put it in some serious mud. i will wait till i have other atv riders with me to help me get out if i stick it, and i will.

from what i have been reading i am understanding that there is a difference in strategy between 4 wheelers and 6x6s when mudding. i have serious ground clearance on my grizzly (28x12x12 zillas[aired up to 29 15/16 inches tall], lift kit, custom offset rims, shimmed primary sheave, custom clutch weights, K&N jet & filter kit and other mods) and not much clearance on the max. i will have to change my muddin' strategy. thank you for sharing yours with me.

i do know that having one bank in reverse and the other bank in forward while holding the throttle wide open will make me smile. ha...im smiling right now just thinking about it. yes... it will have a high level of entertainment value.

By roadwolf.com on Unrecorded Date: Edit

working with hydro skid steers for a living, i can tell you have to be at a stop or crawl to do a zero turn.

By E.J. Warden on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry,
From your post it looks like you are having fun coming up with different types of modifications you can do to your 6-wheeler. I have an old Attex, and have done some good modifications, and of course some real bad ones also. Trying the ideas you can come up with is half the fun. Keep reading and keep welding.
p.s. As far as having a "strategy" for mudding in a six-wheeler... I have found that having a drink holder comes in handy so that you can put your liquid refreshment down safely, and then stomp on the gas and grit your teeth.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

yes! i dont know how i overlooked a drink holder. back when i used to ride my (old and getting dusty) 4 wheeler i always had an ice chest and a place to set my can. a can holder is going on my "to do list". thanks.

the more i ride the more i learn to grit my teeth when i mash the motor (the seat belt is my friend).

i did my first chain adjustment last night (the left primary and right front & rear final needed it most). while i had the seats out i checked all the nuts and bolts for tightness, cleaned out the channels with blower and shop vac, gave the chains a good oiling, adjusted the belt (thats another story- i loosened up the motor-to-mount bolts instead of the mount-to-frame bolts, wasted a whole hour kicking my self in the butt and getting everything lined back up. hey...it was 1 in the morning and i was stone sober...basicly, i was out of my element), and evened up the laterals (the right lat was a half a turn closer to the dash). this was my first time to look under the floor boards with the seats out. this thing is so simple and easy to work on compared to my wheeler. im amazed at how easy it is to pull the motor. makes me smile even more.

now im ready for sundays ride to the duck hole for a little scouting and alot of joy riding!

one more thing... i moved the motor mount back all the way to get the belt tention to spec and i ran out of adjustment. the belt is still not tight enough. it looks like i need more motor spacers (slit washers- has two per mounting bolt now) between the motor and the motor mount. did ri not install enough from the factory? only have 18 hours on the machine. you would think the belt would get too tight if the mount was pulled all the way back. is this common? will ri send me some slit washers or do i have to go to the hardware store and get some "pull the bolt all the way out to install" washers?

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry, Here I go spouting off again. You have an 02 Max IV meaning you have o-ring chains. You should be able to go fifty hours between adjustments, maybe more. Make sure you don't get them too tight, too tight is very hard on bearings, sprockets and chain. Chains are much better off just a hair too loose rather than a hair too tight. The factory sends machines out with the chains too tight for normal use, (I think the reason is to accommodate the initial stretch - after about 15/20 hours, they are about right. Also be sure you have the tires, for which you are adjusting the chain, off the ground and able to turn freely. When the tires are on the ground, one, top or bottom of the chain will be too tight and the other (top or bottom) will be too loose. Be aware that there is a tight spot in each chain/sprocket assembly and you need to adjust the chains at the tight spot. When greasing the bearings, don't use too much grease (just a squirt or two a couple times a year is adequate) because you will blow the seals out. To check the belt tension, try to walk the belt off the driven pulley. The belt should come off the tranny pulley without loosening anything, but be hard to get on and off (you have to twist the belt to get it between the drive pulley on the engine and the body - it is a tight fit, but to does fit). This is another case of having it (the drive belt) a hair too loose is better than a hair too tight). I'm sure that if you really need more washers, and call RI, that they will help you. I advise everyone to use belt dressing on their drive belt (it will increase belt life and ensure top performance in most all situations). Whenever I service a machine, I put the liquid belt dressing (from NAPA)on each edge of the belt with my finger. If you use the spray stuff, take the belt off first as you will make a terrible mess inside and maybe get belt dressing in your starter.

Keeping the chain troughs clean is a very good idea.

RI does have a set of service manuals for those who are going to maintain their own machine.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

thanks for the info fred,
i made the adjustments according to the owners manual just as you described. the reason i adjusted the chains so early is the machine was pulling to the side on a straight run. the tires had equal air pressure so i figured it had to be the chains.

do i call ri directly or go through my local max dealer to get the service manuals? i gots ta have my manuals.

i lowered my max back down to the ground and went for a test run. i noticed that the motor mount was hitting the tranny. when i mashed the throttle, i could feel it through the laterals as i pulled back to make a turn. it was also making a loud rattling noise. i put the engine mount back where it was from the factory and everything is back to normal. if it will not hurt the belt to run it so loose i will not worry about the belt adjustment. if i have to tighten the belt i will either have to add washers between the engine and engine mount or fire up the torch. (i didnt want to take the seat back out to look for the point of contact so im not sure exactly where the engine mount was hitting the tranny)

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

What engine do you have? The last Max IV I had was an '03 with 18hp. It had three spacer washers under the engine. I'm not sure if the Kohler engines would have a different setting. You do lose performance with a loose belt. A general rule is 1.5" of side to side movement when pulling and pushing on the belt, in the middle between clutches.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Terry, you should probably get the manuals from your dealer. Why don't you have him check your drive belt

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

brandon,
2002 IV 900T. 25 hp kohler Command.
the belt will move 3.25 inches. i can push it in 2 inches and pull it out 1 1/4 inches. the motor mount is pushed all the way forward. even if the mount didnt hit anything i still would run out of adjustment before i reached spec on belt tention. i feel like somethings not right.

fred,
i will stop by the eldorado dealer to order the manuals, get him to look at the belt and get his opnion on the situation.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i ended up making some taller spacers for the engine. belt problem solved.