Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through March 18, 2001	1

By Kevin Figgins on Unrecorded Date: Edit

First I would like to say this is a great site and I bought a 6x6 becouse of what I read on this site, I will admit it gets alittle tireing readind all the slaming done on this site by primarily max owners it seems you people are trying to prove something primarily to yourself!!!I'am not going to say why can't we just get along I'v heard to many people say that in the past,from what I'v read it seems one thing does come through I think that 90% of the negitivepost are comeing from max dealers I think you people should identify yourself as max dealers before you start ripping argo. Now to say it I picked the ARGO VANGAURD 11 and I'am glad I did I owned a max 4 1995 and would never buy another one

By tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Will a 6x6 fall through the ice easier than a person? I know it has less psi than a person, but it also weighs about a 1000 pounds!

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Its the psi that counts. No, a person will fall through the ice before a Max will. I am sure that the Argo will have less psi then a person.

By timothy O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well I understand what your saying, and I'm sure that any 6x6 or 4x4 does not have 160lbs of pressure per square foot like a human has. It just does not seem that logical that you can have about a 1000 lbs of weight (machine people and gear)in a 25 square foot area and be safer than a person standing alone! My math says yes, but logic says no!

By nvbigblue on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey guys,There is a formula you can use to calculate how much weight is supported by so much ice.
The formula is: h = 4 times the square root of p

where:
h = thickness of ice in inches
p = weight of load in tons

Example: To support 1000lbs of weight you need ice how thick?

h = 4 times the square root of .5 OR
h = 4 times 0.707106 OR
h = 2.828424
So it would take approximately 2.8 inches of clear, hard ice to support 1000 pounds.
Now this is the formula for clear (no air bubbles), hard ice. This formula was developed by the US Army Corps of Engineers for moving heavy equipment over frozen rivers, lakes, etc. I'll see if I can't find the web page again. They did talk about how long you can remain in one spot, how close to park vehicles together, and speed and distance between vehicles when crossing ice. And yes it does work out about right. I parked my 7000lb suburban on a lake 2 years ago. We parked on 9 inches of ice (supports about 18,000 lbs) for over 24 hours. When I drove it off the ice, it broke thru the edge at about 7 inches thick. Amazingly, if you work it out, it takes about 7.4 inches of hard, clear ice to support 7000 lbs! The ice at the edges was starting to go slushy on top ... hmmmm...better living thru science!
Just thought it might help.
Bill

By Midwest atv's #1 since 2000 (Hustler) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I know what you mean. It was hard for me to believe it until I saw 6x6's going through a thick mud hole and wasn't dropping that much at all. Then 2 guys tried to walk through it saying that the hole wasn't that deep. They both fell head under the mud. We had to winch them out of the mud until they could get out on their own. I do have pics of them coming out of the mud hole on my website. www.maxatv.com
It is under Badlands of 2000

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Bill, Appreciate the formula, but, I don't think it applies to skid steers with low PSI on the ground (or ice as is the case here). My physics isn't always real good, but I'm sure contact PSI is as relative as is weight (perhaps the ACOE has factored in a heaviest PSI number for safety sake). Thats why they tell you to lay flat on the ice and stick out a pole to help someone who has fallen through the ice (lying on a piece of plywood or anything uniformly flat is better yet). In my experience, I find a max IV will cross ice that is about one inch thick. Whether the ice is floating on the water, also makes a difference (ice in contact with water will support more than just ice).

And of course, I must point out that actual PSI on the ground at each specific weight bearing point is the determining factor regardless of average PSI on the ground - hence, the better balanced one's machine is, the thinner ice one can stay up on.

By Bill Davis (Nvbigblue) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,
As I recall (although I'm still looking for the web site) it applied to all types of vehicles, because they mention tracked (main battle tanks) by name. Although, yes, it did mention psi based on contact area, they were more concerned with the, and I'm doing the best I can to remember here, "generalized surface area", something about a vehicle X long by X wide will assert influence on a circle X feet on diameter..... They talked about vehicles weighing X amount must be parked X feet away from other vehicles because the ice might fracture and sink....basically a big plate of ice breaking off and sinking.....
Not disagreeing at all ith you Fred....I concur that low PSI will be able to cross thinner ice than the formula allows.....low psi per contact point....I would think that 1000 lbs spread out over 6 contact points would fair MUCH better than 1000lbs on 4 points...BUT....4 points or 6 points...if ALL the points were within the same diameter circle...you're still putting 1000lbs in that circle....individual points (tires) might not break through the ice....but the entire circle might fracture off and sink.....

Bill

By Bill Davis (Nvbigblue) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey guys.....

Found one of the web sites I got information from:
http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/ierd/ice_safety/safety.html

Still looking for the other one....

Also, forgot to mention that YES!!! water supporting the ice will definately support more than when ice has formed and then the water level has dropped....

Bill

By Tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks much Bill. That was exactly the response I was looking for. In fact I have traveled along very thin ice, but as long as you are moving, you will not fall through. The 20 or so square foot area does not have enough time to feel the wrath of the 1000 or so lbs and develop a severe enough organized crack to bring you down. Fred also made a good point about the water underneath. When I fell through with my son, it was in a big puddle. The water had evaporated a little and there was a gap between the ice and water. Even though the ice was a good 3inches thick or so, we still fell through.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Bill,
Now I understand where you are coming from. And vehicles that don't float are much more concerned about ice breakage.

By Tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Do I have e.s.p or what! I was out today with my nieces on the lake and guess what? We crashed and burned big time. The ice is a good 7 inches thick all over and I have been riding for over a week on it with no problem. All the yuppy and rich neighbors who live on the lake told me I was crazy and wouldn't let their kids near me on the ice. "How can you have that machine on the ice" they said. You are going to fall through. I explained to them that it has much less P.S.I than a person and that in the worst case sceneario it floats! Well today we were riding and came up on a part of the lake that apparently has hot springs feeding it. I saw the water holes in the ice about 100ft before we hit it, but couldn't stop in time. I told the girls to hold on tight, because we could be screwed. Well my worst fear happened. 3 of the wheels broke through at about 15mph and water came pouring in swamping us. I thought I was doomed because I'm paralyzed as most of you know and I couldn't unlatch my seatbelt and we were starting to flip when all the weight shifted. Half the Argo was filled with water, but the motor was still running. Some hockey players helped pull me out too. My nieces ran to a house in a panic and called the fire dept. Anyway, in no time at all the fire dept with all their ice rescue eqpt they have been dying to use were there along with every news photographer in this one horse state. This story will be on the front page of every weekly paper in the state. My machine is still in the lake floating over a hot spring surounded by 7 inches of ice. The whole engine compartment was filled with water up to the carb and it still runs. They tried winching it out, but they can't get the front wheels up on the ice with all that water weight. Dave B. and maybe Tim S. are coming down from mass tomm to help with the recovery. Wish me luck! I will send photos and story when it comes out.
P.S All the neighbors said P.S.I my ass, you can't have a tank on the ice.l

By mike martindale (Wetsu) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

what a ride,is everyone ok? besides having the inside of there shorts a little darker.sounds to me like a bilge pump would be handy about now ehhhhh?
just out of curiosity how thick ( or thin )was the ice where you broke through?

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tim, glad to hear you are all right- except for the machine. was it a 6 or 8 wheeler?

Weren't you in another article a long time ago about rescuing some hunter? (I read it on the argo site)

When it went over, were you trapped under it or was it just up on its side??
Were you running tracks on the machine causing it to slide when you hit the brakes or the tires just didn't grip?

Any more details?

Do you have any pictures of what a swamped argo looks like??

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tim, lets hope that the news people don't bash the ARGO and its winter ability. Hopefully they understand that it wasn't the machine but the hole.

By mike s. on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tim- not sure if my e-mail got through. What state do you live in? Is your aatv still in the water as of Sunday Jan 27th?

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

alls well that ends well,i dident want to take photos, but the argo drove out under its own power and just a little help from it's winch for good mesure, only reason it stayed there over night was tim dident have a builge pump to get the extra wheight out.
i strongly recomend everyone here outfit your rides with a good builge pump now before you need one, having it when you need it might just save your ass!!

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David berger- were you helping to get it out??

Was it under water or just half under on its side?? Obviously the engine was still alright if it drove out on its own. How is Tim?? What ARGO was it??

By Tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

The ice was 0-.5 inch thick where we went in. I did not see it coming untill it was too late and we just kept sliding towards it. I hate to admit it, but I was terrified for a couple of seconds. It was really stupid of me to have my belt on while on the ice. I can swim like a fish, but if the BIGFOOT rolled all the way on top of me, I was doomed. It took me about 20 seconds to find the buckle which was under all my clothes. I was sitting in the right side of the machine which is the side that broke through. My upper body was in the water and I was sure it was going to flip, trapping me underneath. The left side stayed on the ice and some skaters pulled me out with my pants around my ankles and no underwear. The poperazi's from the papers were there snapping away like I was princess Dianna. They were there 10 mins before the fire dept. I hope they got the picture of it on it's side with the three wheels on the ice. It looked really cool and traumatic. I think the skaters had already righted it in the water using the winch when the photo's were taken. My sister inlaw told me that the Six o'clock news wheather man said "you may think the ice is safe, but some genius in Peace Dale R.I broke through the ice and sunk his atv. Be prepared, all the papers are going to trash me and the Argo this Thursday and Fiday. Nobody wanted to hear about low P.S.I and amphibious. Just for the record the skater told me that his foot fell through that same spot about an hour earlier. I wish I had a video or photo's of Dave Berger driving it back on the ice. It was very impressive. It looked like the creature from the black lagoon climbing up on the ice wheels spinning. I wish the firemen and the newsmen could have been there they might have cut me a little slack.
P.S Thanks Dave for all the help. I moved to R.I ten years ago and have made alot of so called friends, but when it came to the recovery everyone acted like they never knew me. Dave came down from mass after working all night and got the job done. Also thanks to Tim Schotanus who was preparred to take off work and come down from Mass too if Dave had knocked on his door instead of just taking his tools from his garage LOL

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Looks to me like the AATV showed it's value, it floated! A snowmobile would be at the bottom of the lake. It is a wakeup call about water entry from the ice, though.

Glad to hear everyone's safe.

By mike martindale (Wetsu) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

tim, when david got your argo out did you guys play some more on the ice before you took it home???? hehe. glad everything turned out ok for you.mike

By Tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

That was what I had in mind Mike lol. The machine still had alot of water in it and the belt was slipping or I would have, just to show the town that it wasn't sunk like the news said and to piss off the neighbors who told all their kids I told you that guy was stupid.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tim, Did u have to go to hospital to be checked out or was everything alright? Did you get the argo out the next day as a solid ice block? If that was me, I would have done some doughnuts on the neighbors property no matter what just to show them the ARGO IS TOUGH!

By Tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well I got the paper today and I'm on the front page as I expected. The picture shows the bigfoot floating upright after the skater's righted it. I will try to scan it and post it, but I think the scanner is shot. I will get it on one way or another this week. The paper said it floated for a while and then sank which isn't true.

By Tim O'Keefe on Unrecorded Date: Edit

There is another paper coming out on Friday. I think I will be in that one too. This is a real small state!

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tim, have you fixed the belt slipping problem yet?? How is the machine working now?? If the ARGO was flooded with water, wouldn't it get into the engine and drown it out? Is their a possibility of water getting into the oil and other areas? WHat are the outcomes of water flooding in the extreme case?

By lizardtrack on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi guys, first time on this site. you need to lighten up fsssst rowwwlll. I see this sort of sniping with the gun owners, shotgunners vs pistols and everyone looses. anyway, dosen't speed play a factor on the ice? the neighbor here gets his kicks running across his pond on his snowmobile {in july} also isn't there there a speed factor with the heavier machines setting up a wave or undulating effect of the ice? Lake Erie is littered on the bottom with snowmobiles and a few atvs but I'd bet there isn't one 6 wheeler down there. good luck Clyde

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Wow, excellent discussions every one! Glad to hear that the ice break through event and rescue turned out well! I do have a couple of very important questions to ask of every one and particularly David Berger. David I did read that you were able to drive the Argo back up onto the ice, if that is correct, can you tell how well or difficult it was to get enough traction for the wheels to climb back out, and did you notice if the back end wanted to dive under and try to fill back up with water again?

I ask these questions because I am currently being asked these exact question by many ice fisherman and potential customers up here in the Michigan and Ohio area's. At some point in time I will go out and try this same type of recovery, just so that I can prove to myself that it is doable, before I tell every one that it is not a problem to perform. For the moment any way, I have been instructing and telling people to carry and use stakes and a hammer and the winch to pull the unit back onto the ice, in the event of a complete break through or if they must cross major gaps in the ice packs to get back to land.

This is a very important subject of discussion for myself and other ice fisherman up here. When attempting to ice fish on the great lakes water ways up here, on vast bodies of water and ice, quite often the wind causes the ice packs to start shifting and breaking up and floating away, which in term leaves many people trapped out in the broken off ice packs. Only about two weeks ago, they had to rescue approximately 29 fisherman from the ice up on Lake St. Clair. This happens quite often through out the entire ice fishing season up here. I want to be able to properly advise and educate some of these people that our amphibious machines will help them to survive when these events do happen.

As requested by a couple of the people posting messages on this subject, I am a Max Dealer in the Detroit Michigan area. I own and operate a Max IV-950T machine with the new 27 HP Kawasaki engine, and I am not interested in bashing any ones choice or brand of machine. I can only say this if you have never tried one of these new 2004 Max IV-950T machines out, then you do not know what you are missing. Its an excellent piece of equipment!

Our primary focus is to educate more poeple about these machines, and get them away from the 4x4 quads and snow moblies and into one of these machines. Our thoughts and beliefs are these machines will provide people with much improved personal protection and much more versatility versus the other types of products on the market.

So any way, I am very interested to hear more about these ice break through recovery experiences from others out there.

Thanks
Big Wolf

By shane forsythe (Shanefor1) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

tim o'keefe,
in jan 2003 you mentioned that you seen the thin ice and just kept sliding towards it .

my question is if it happens again, could you hit both brakes with 1 hand and engage reverse and gun the throttle ???

shurly spinning in reverse would slow you down??

p.s. could you do this on a muddy down slope to slow you too??
shane.

By Bud on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I look forward to a response to Big Wolf's post. I broke through the ice in our pond last December in my Max II, and had to get pulled out by a 4x4 using a long tow strap. My lack of driving experience was probably a factor, and I have now procured a winch that I will be installing soon.

By JBC on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Self-Rescue Technique
http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/selfrescue.htm

Ice Strength Table
http://www.state.ma.us/dfwele/dfw/dfwice.htm

Ice Grain Structure
http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/ice_grain.htm

Holes In Ice
http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/holes_in_ice.htm

Midwinter Holes
http://sailingsource.com/ice/articles/midwinter_holes.htm

The above were all taken from:
http://www.iceshanty.com/iceshanty/ice_fishing.php

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

shane you know how when youd expect your life to start flashing before your eyes you also begin to expereance a seamingly long moment when things seam to go in s l o w m o t i o n ? ?
well this is what tim okeefe was experiancing while waching the distance cloas till one side droped threw the ice, he's got plenty of threw the ice expireance, most times he brakes threw on perpose caus he is a madman,
he loves too pit himself aganced these situations, we have video of his climbing back onto ice in the past, however we did not bring a camera down to his house to video recovery of his machine for a number of reasones, just 1 being it might not have bin property he was alowed to drive on. this posably being the case i was only interested in swiftest recovery of the swamped machine. and defenatly not provideing anyone with video proof of same.
tim dident care one way or the other, it was my worieing only,
what went wrong was at the time of this acedent tim was straped to his vehicle, and in the pased he alwase broke threw with both sides at one time.
he just dident expect this too happen and dident know if it would go over wheels up or not,
since we cannot predict wether in someone elses situation there might be a curent benethe the ice i canot predict the outcome of such a brake threw were it too happen to anyone in the future, i have wred a posting from someone who lost a max in a night time water crossing because it filled with water and swamped, the machine would have remaind at the serfice but a current in the water tumbled it under and away,
tim was very lucky as there wasent any curent, ice skaters nearby panicked along with tim and yanked him phisicly from his vehicle while 3 wheels on one side were still on top of ice,
i cannot remember how and or when the others whent into the water, prehaps someone tryed to secure the vehicle and caused it to level out, no matter as it remained floating dispite the storys in the papers that said it sank to the bottom,
my machine would have sank in no time, heh heh
but times was still floating abeit verry low in the water, it contained so much water it was level to top of battery! i cant beleave knowbody there knew enoph to bail it out so it could climb out it'self, tim and i picked up a builge pump at marine supply store in town and went down to his machine in my machine, i threw it into the argo from edge of the ice compleat with wires jumped from his argo's battery and with a long hose on it,
once the water was down too low to pump out i climbed onto the bigfoot and removed the builge pump, i stood on back rail and started the argo with how too's from tim,
i dident want to get my feet wet but it was even more helpfull with my feet on back rail to get frount near ice edge, my plan at first was to back it onto the ice, but it was faceing the way i wanted to go so insted of trying to turn it 180* i just gave it hell,
tims wife and naybor had stayed by machine into the evening to get winch tied off to a small tree on nearby island, (so it would remain near edge of ice) i just gave the winch a turn or two when i needed too to help with the ice edge traction, not the way tim would have done it but i wasent interested in the sporting aspect, i had a job to do and the ice was begining to melt that morning,

big red all i can say is your on the right trak telling folks to eqip for sucsess, the hammer and stakes and im a firm beleaver that your winch is there for a reason damm it so use it, i here people say all the time useing the winch is cheeting, hell then why do so many people have them? the first thing they need though is a builge pump or two, they should alwase maintain the builge pum's too keep them in worcking order too! if nothing else the builge pump must alwase be ready! that means keep dirt,sticks n bug's cleaned out from inside off hull whenever you going out into deep water or out on ice,
id recomend you do some expirements yourself in say shalow water and maybe when your shur you have most of the angles figured out you could video it and make an insructinal video for sale only threw your dealership!!! hey remember me when you make your first milion from that idea ok

id go on but thers a 500,000 word limmit

By JBC on Unrecorded Date: Edit

A month or so ago, I went out in a dingey that was equipped with sponsons off the coast of Maine. I've been in a lot of dingeys without them and they will tip in a second. They are dangerous.
But with sponsons, I could stand on the edge and it would only tip as far as the sponsons.

They might be something to consider if you do a lot of water or ice travel.

Sponsons are the black foam along the canoe's side.
Bolts are provided or you can glue them on. 9 feet long and 4 inches diameter . Made of Ethafoam.
http://www.sponsonguy.com/canoeuse.htm

20 Second Sponsons
http://www.sponsonguy.com/canoeuse.htm

By JBC on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sorry, posted the same link twice for the 20 second sponsons.
This is the link for the 9 footers.
http://www.canoegear.com/sponsons.html

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dave thanks for the follow up response note. I will definately have to go out and try a some field tests with ice break though recovery. One of our local guys in our area here has also e-mailed me that he will be doing some of his own field tests with his Argo Conquest unit up north at Higgins Lake during this winter. He has a couple of ideal shallow water locations picked out up there on the lake, were there are springs that keep the ice from forming during the winter, and they will be able to perform some safe and controlled field trials. He said that they would also photo graph the techniques they try out, with tires only, tracks, and tracks with steel cleats. If he does do that, I will post them on our web site to share with every one also.

Your idea to make a video tape of ice break though recovery is a great idea, although I don't see much chance to make millions in this type of business. Right now I would settle for covering advertising costs or break even!

Tim O'Keefe your story and experience was excellent to read about, particularly the part about the pants down around your ankles and the news media treating you like the former Princess of Whales. That's an absolute gem man! I hope the news media at least allowed you to smile for the camera, before they proceeded to photo graph you and your pride flapping in the breeze. If they ever run you out of town over that one, you can always move up here and join the rest of us wild cave men of the north! On occasion we still do honor our old traditions and dress up in the loin cloth and leg chaps and head out to hunt with the bow or spear.

I also like that idea of using the sponsons, I will check out that idea also. I have a design on the drawing board using small pontoons or out riggers like a canoe would have, of which I want to make into a removable kit for my machine. I was thinking of that idea for use in large rough water crossings and or semi swift moving river crossing applications.

Any how great discussion, hope to see more postings on this subject.

Big Wolf

By shane forsythe (Shanefor1) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

dave,
didn't know it was time s l o w d o w n i've had this too, no time to react.being strapped in would be extra scary.

thanks for info dave,
coming from a country with not much snow (most of it is 250miles away ) i live near sydney and most people only been to the snow once in au. we see snow 1 year in 5 if wer'e lucky.

i don't have any experience with undercurrents in ice covered rivers, all i can say is tim's mad breaking through on purpose.
you should video it.

these arn't boats we should fill every avalible space with foam, boats float on water these float half way down in water.

and the dude who lost his to a undercurrent should of walked down stream and found it , i bet it would of been hardly damaged.

jbc, i like the sponson idea, i was going to make a lip on mine like this out of metal to stop swamping from waves and damage from trees when turning in thick woods.
but this aids floating as well.
gotta go 500,000 word limit....
shane.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Shane, I think it was you who asked above if you could pull the brakes with one hand and shift into reverse and crank it again. I tried this accidently about 8 years ago before I even really knew what these could do. ( I was still running up and down the driveway at the cottage endlessly) My driveway has a fork in it and the neighbors is there. Mine goes off to the right but their is a rock garden thing there where the hydro pole is. I was going up the driveway too fast and the tracks were on. I went to turn with the driveway and lost all control and came within about a half foot from slamming into the wall. Unlike in a car when you loose traction in snow you can just let off the gas or brake or don't steer for a sec and usually you can get back in control. If its slippery and you are going too fast, the tracks don't have enough bite to catch and stop you. I don't know about the ARGO tracks today, but ours are flat all the way along where they contact the ground and their is no rough area other than where the segments meet. Thats not enough. After this happened, I purposly did it again and I can tell you for sure, its not easy trying to let off the gas, brake, throw it into reverse and jam the gas again in enough time to stop you if you are in a situation like tim o'keefe was (sorry if I spelled your name wrong Tim!) or how close it sounds like he got. If you are running along and a situation arises, you often don't really have time to think about getting into reverse. However, (havn't tried this yet- lakes not frozen over at the cottage yet) I am wondering what would happen if you let the engine stop you. People have said that if you are going down a steep hill or something, brakes are often not a good idea as they may actually tip you. If you are slipping out of control, what about letting off the gas totally, but then engage the clutch again just at the point where its going. I havn't a clue if this would work, and it also may be something you don't have time to think about. All I know is that when safe to do so, skating your ARGO is a blast and even better when you aren't taking people for a ride to slow you down. Crank it up, tap the brake, and let it skid with the throttle wide open the whole time. I have been able to actually run backwards for a while while in hi gear and the throttle opened. When I go up next, I will try to turn the dead end on the road into a skating rink with the ARGO and then skid out of control into the area and test this out. I'll let you know if I do it.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Shane, I think it was you who asked above if you could pull the brakes with one hand and shift into reverse and crank it again. I tried this accidently about 8 years ago before I even really knew what these could do. ( I was still running up and down the driveway at the cottage endlessly) My driveway has a fork in it and the neighbors is there. Mine goes off to the right but their is a rock garden thing there where the hydro pole is. I was going up the driveway too fast and the tracks were on. I went to turn with the driveway and lost all control and came within about a half foot from slamming into the wall. Unlike in a car when you loose traction in snow you can just let off the gas or brake or don't steer for a sec and usually you can get back in control. If its slippery and you are going too fast, the tracks don't have enough bite to catch and stop you. I don't know about the ARGO tracks today, but ours are flat all the way along where they contact the ground and their is no rough area other than where the segments meet. Thats not enough. After this happened, I purposly did it again and I can tell you for sure, its not easy trying to let off the gas, brake, throw it into reverse and jam the gas again in enough time to stop you if you are in a situation like tim o'keefe was (sorry if I spelled your name wrong Tim!) or how close it sounds like he got. If you are running along and a situation arises, you often don't really have time to think about getting into reverse. However, (havn't tried this yet- lakes not frozen over at the cottage yet) I am wondering what would happen if you let the engine stop you. People have said that if you are going down a steep hill or something, brakes are often not a good idea as they may actually tip you. If you are slipping out of control, what about letting off the gas totally, but then engage the clutch again just at the point where its going. I havn't a clue if this would work, and it also may be something you don't have time to think about. All I know is that when safe to do so, skating your ARGO is a blast and even better when you aren't taking people for a ride to slow you down. Crank it up, tap the brake, and let it skid with the throttle wide open the whole time. I have been able to actually run backwards for a while while in hi gear and the throttle opened. When I go up next, I will try to turn the dead end on the road into a skating rink with the ARGO and then skid out of control into the area and test this out. I'll let you know if I do it.

By shane forsythe (Shanefor1) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

david k,
yeah it was me.
david burger answered me , and see my reply, the gyst is i didn't know tim was soo close to the hole he said it took ages,

thanks for posts don't know nothing about ice exept it's super slippery,this should allow you to engage reverse while going forward without rolling end on end,
p.s. i didn't say it would be easy.
don't wear a hole in the ice or you will grip and roll.
shane

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Well here's another brief update about the dangers of traveling and ice fishing out on the Great Lakes. The Coast Guard had to rescue 14 or 16 more ice fisherman out on Lake Erie during this past week end. This particular group of fisherman were fishing out of Port Clinton, Ohio, and ventured way out to fish around a few of the Islands out there, when the wind changed direction and caused the ice pack to start breaking up. I think two of them made it to a nearby island and the other 14 were stranded and floated away. In this case it looks like there were many 4x4 quads and snow mobiles that had to be left behind, along with all of their gear.

I do belive they may have to pay at lest $1000 each for being rescued, and there are some stiff fines for having to abandon their machines in place, out on the ice.

The same thing happens year after year.

Myself and another local guy here in the Detroit area may just consider going down to the beach area on the week ends, with a couple of pontoon boats to tow behind our machines, and start charging these guys to go out and get their machines for them. You would probably make quite a bit on a busy week end out there.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

big wolf, that dose sound like a great money maker and a great service to offer, however there realy isent any need to tow the pontoon boats out with a 6x6 or 8x8, yes it's better to have one if your out on the ice say than a 4x4 or snow mobile, but realy they arnt boats,not very much freeboard, if waters very calm maybe, otherwise take them out on powered pontoon boat and the cruse the ice lookin fer the people or machines,
you can get them amphibions more stablized with adition of pontoons, but rough water is an unesesary risk!

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

JBC, thanks for providing the link to the canoe gear and sponsons web site listed above. This guy has the perfect type of floatation and stabilizer aids that I have been looking for. He also has a couple of kits for adding ethyfoam outrigger pontoons and some kits for adding rowing yokes and paddles.

I plan to buy the outrigger pontoon kit, and the rowing yokes and paddle kit, so I can re-adapt my Max IV machine and turn it into a river drift boat, for steel head fishing on the big rivers up north. Using a dual outrigger kit alone will provide about 700 pounds of added floatation, unmatched stability in any body of water, and should allow a machine to handle some really rough and wide span water usage and crossings.

I have had a couple of guys ask me about making up a kit for these machines for this exact purpose. This will also turn a Max machine into a decent all around fishing boat, to handle just about any type of rough water conditions, just short of going out on the Great Lakes or white water rafting!

If I can locate some ethyfoam pontoons with the high front and rear end on them, it would not be difficult to turn these machines in to a white water rafting rig also! Not sure how the axles and wheels would hold up to white water rafting, but we have not reached that point of evolution yet.

I will need to come up with some good product names for the new custom kit stuff, perhaps "Big Wolf's Custom White Water Machines" or some thing to that affect.

Later guys, time for dinner now!

By jim stefanowicz (Maxindetroit) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Has anyone put studs on the tires of a Max11? I was out yesterday driveing on the ice, which had little or no snow on it, and I was out of control whenevr I wanted to change my course, had to slow down to change course with out losing control of machine. Would studs help? What about chains?

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Jim,

Chains will provide a little more traction on ice but are not the best solution. Steel studded tires are the best solution for working out on the ice. The traction would be vastly improved and the side sliding would be reduced dramatically.

The steel studed tires may even provide improved traction for climbing back onto the ice, in the event of an ice break through, or traversing gaps on the ice pack.

I saw an atv web site that handled and sold steel studded tires, I just cant remember which web site it was! Maybe some one else will know and can post a note about where to find them at.

Hows the fish biting out on Anchor Bay! Last time I was down at Brest Bay they were not catching any thing on the north side of the Bay. They were only going out a couple of miles to the first major pressure crack and stopping there. Looking out at the ice at the Fowlerville DNR launch site, it looks like a city of ice shanties out on the ice. I also noticed a few more guys driving their trucks out on the ice. That should help increase the loss of equipment budget for the year.

Did you ever receive a manual or documentation from the factory for your model year Max II machine? Are you doing OK with the maintanance items we discussed?

By jim stefanowicz (Maxindetroit) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hi Gary,
Good to hear from you, yes, I did recieve the manuals, for my machine, from R.I., thanks so much for all the help you have given me, and for calling me. As far as the maintanance goes, it is going well, I have changed the trans. fluid, and the oil in the engine, have adjusted the chains just like you told me, to do. Also greased everything I could find, then after getting the manuals, greased some I missed. Sure hope someone can help with the studded tires, boy, that was exciting, going along at a pretty good clip, go to change directions, and almost put into a spin, nothing like driveing on the edge of all out loss of control. HEE HEE! Will be in touch.
Jim

By jim stefanowicz (Maxindetroit) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Oh, almost forgot, the fishing has sucked, we had been doing good off the Crocker and Jefferson launch site, catching huge perch, but it has really slowed up, it still looks like a city out there, but nobody is doing to well, maybe with this warmer weather comeing it might improve.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jim, I don't know of any Max tires that have been studded, but think a shop that does that could do your tires. Don't know which tire you have, but all but the Nankang should have enough tread to hold a stud. My guess is the temperature must be close to thawing the ice, because you should have some grip on solid ice. What PSI do you have in your tires? Again, the lower the better to grip. The trouble with chains is 1st, clearance and 2nd, they slip down in the tread doing nothing but along for the ride and adding weight. A cable chain might have enough cross pieces that it would stay up on the lugs.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Now that Fred mentioned, we have many moto cross shops all over town, probably most any one of them could take a set of your tires and custom stud them for ice usage. I know some of the moto cross guys that race on the ice in the winter, install the studs on their tires, and they can fly around almost as if they were on a dirt track. You will not be able to run the studed tires on any pavement though, they will shread a black top pavement surface. You shouls probably buy a spare set of tires and rims for normal off road usage, and use the old set of tires for the stud set up.

Once the studs are installed, you should have some tremendous traction for climbing back onto the ice, in the event of a break through or what ever else. If this does not help that situation, then nothing else will.

Another great example of just how well the steel stud tires should work on ice, would be to watch some of the scenes in that last James Bond movie, where Mr. Bond is blazing across the ice lake in his Aston Martin Vanquish. He throws a rooster tail of shreaded ice behind for about 50 yards, as he is making some banking turns and unleashing the power of that Vanquish machine. I realize it is Hollywood, however, that Vanquish was custom built by Aston Martin and set up to do those scenes, and that was the actual performance filmed on ice. Who knows how many takes it took to get it right though!

We will have to rename your Max II the "Max II Vanquish" after you complete your custom work on your tires. Add some more horse power and the new name will fit well!

You cant be out there spraying all the other ice fisherman with shreaded shards of ice now, that would be the same thing as spraying the net minder down at the "Joe". And that would be considered a game misconduct. That brings to mind one last idea, get a league started for ice hockey using Max's!

I should start up a new "Dot Com" to market all these new buzz word names and ideas, Aeh!

By jim stefanowicz (Maxindetroit) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks Gary for the bit of humor, I am going to look into this, I will let you know what I find.

By mr. tinker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

http://www.jrgraham.com/cgibin/hsrun.exe/webapps/jrg5c19/StateId/CYR1rywlKI7GOmxUcmtmlEZ6ZZUFq-U4Ef/HAHTpage/PostCatSearch different studs

http://www.jrgraham.com/cgibin/hsrun.exe/webapps/jrg5c19/StateId/CYR1rywlKI7GOmxUcmtmlEZ6ZZUFq-U4Ef/HAHTpage/PostCatSearch

http://www.jrgraham.com/cgibin/hsrun.exe/webapps/jrg5c19/StateId/CYR1rywlKI7GOmxUcmtmlEZ6ZZUFq-U4Ef/HAHTpage/PostCatSearch

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

one of the greatest joy's of rideing on ice is after all the fact you can slide and spinn and when you actualy want to you can also do figure eights arround quades, now if your still insisting on ice cleats id sugest saveing hundreds of dollers on a new sett of tires and just get a pair of tires cleated, use them one on each sid, maybe in the center position, as skid stearing will still work ok this way and you get the posi traktion your looking for,

By mr. tinker on Unrecorded Date: Edit

sorry about those links. for some reason they did not work. just go to jr graham and type studs in the search box.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Big wolf, believe it or not, I actually tried playing hockey with my ARGO 2 years ago. We shoveled off the ice and played regular hockey for a while and when that got boring, we put a helmet or something like that on the ice and I would run the ARGO down the bank and onto the ice, slam the brake and let the back end toss the helmet. We almost ended up taking out my sisters nose, but it was fun non the less. With tracks on, if you are in mid-donut and you hit deep snow suddenly, the snow starts flying around the tire guides and creates on hell of a spray to coat anyone standing too close. Lots of fun!