By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

All... I've been told that once I learn to drive the Max correctly I'll be able to make turns that don't tear up the ground. I'm getting better, but I'm still having an issue with it. Can any of you season'd Max/Argo vets out there help me? I've got a Max Buffalo (only 200 lbs more than a MaxII) that's pretty new. While humming along at speed, I can make arching turns that leave little or not grass torn up, this is good. At low speed however, any turn seems to be digging in. The brakes seem to be really grabby, quickly stopping that side. Is this because it's new? Will they get less grabby with use and more hours?

I was thinking about removing the springs on the control bars so that they're easier to feather turns with. I'd have to push forward to go forward with them then, and they wouldn't function as an instand parking brake in reverse anymore, but I can handle that. Does doing this help at all? Any tips and advice for a newbie?

By davidrrrd on Unrecorded Date: Edit

jason, brandom might tell you thet thay can be fethred but thay realy canot, the bands are self energising, there ingaged or not, there is some speicial oil added now too the trany's in an attempt too remedy this problem with t-20's but it is still a skid only stear,
don't loose the springs as you may wish to put em back in laiter,
with the powerfull 2 strokes you can get nice turns with nutral and a few quick revs of the engine.if in the real world one could realyably hold a t-20 in that state of semi ingagement that branden insists is usfull, you would in fact do more harm to the trany than you would like.
you shouldent do it, you cant do it relyably & it's bad for the trany so find another way,
this is my beef with the t-20 = non fetherable!

By Tim Wafer (Iflyrctoo) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David
I have heard the argument about the T-20 not being featherable before but have yet to understand the reasoning behind it. It certainly appears to me that it is featherable or it would be very difficult to drive indeed.
For example, suppose you are traveling in deep snow with tracks diagonally up across a steep incline. The only way to keep the machine in a straight line is to pull back slightly on the uphill stick applying some power to that side but not fully engaged. If it's fully engaged it will invariably turn downhill. If in neutral you will either turn up hill or more likely stop altogether and spin the downhill track depending on the snow conditions. You need to turn the uphill track slower than the downhill in order to proceed. It easy to see the tracks and tell one is turning faster than the other. How else is this possible if not feathering the engagement of the bands? I broke a band once and tore the tranny down but noticed no excessive wear on any of the bands or drums.
I don't want to argue, just trying to understand your reasoning. Can you elaborate?
Tim

By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Davidrrrd: Thanks for the info. It's not what I was hoping for but it does match my experience so far. Can you offer any advice for helping to reduce ground damage? Are you saying that there is no semi-engagement on the T20? Can't say I'm impressed with that.

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jason the T-20 is completely featherable and will do anything you want it to. I have been doing it for two years in my Max and there is no way I could go where I go without doing it. True six wheel drive with one side turning slower can really help you in some mud holes.
Feathering a T-20 is like true six wheel drive in an Argo. It all depends on the driver and the tranny isn't going to do it by itself.

MaxRules

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

tim, its not reasoning, the engeniear who designed it did not know it would end up in vehicles,"i'd have done it diferently"his own words,
maybe the gm diferential lubricant thay put in them theas days is helping yours.
i like the attex baker hill trans and the american amphicat tranys for there fetherability,
the seara trail boss was saposed to handle nice too but i havent driven one of those.
puting in aditivs to defeat the dbl wound self energising band might help smoth out the harsh engagement of the t-20 but it's hardly predictable or usefull, it dosent compair to a trans designed to alow fethering.
i find the t-20 clumsy and harsh, durable maybe, but far from perfict ,
prehaps a small design chaing to the bands might alow the bands to act like cluches,eliminate the self energising ability and widen the window of that so called semi engagement, thus making it more predictable and usefull. the lubricant treats a simptom not the problem, it's the wrong solution for shure!

By Tim Wafer (Iflyrctoo) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I use Amsoil synthetic tranny oil in mine. I don't use the GM additive. I guess I don't understand the term "self energizing". I have no trouble turning in the yard without chewing up my lawn providing I don't make sharp turns. Same policy I use with my hydrostatic Skid Steer loader. Make graceful sweeping turns. Jason, if your adding tracks it will be hard to tell you even drove across the lawn. I don't use them in the summer because of poor water performance.
David, I still cannot understand why you believe theT-20 is not fetherable. My experience with engineers leads me to the conclusion they are not as smart as they like one to believe. I have proven to a couple, on different occasions, things they claim are impossible on paper. What was the T-20 designed for if not a skid steer vehicle?

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

the "clutch"performance on t-20 tranny depends on the "right" clearance/gap adjustment on the bands...so to get smoot slip must have to be a free band momentum between brake bands acting on same stick ( left/right)..that's equal to both bands free at center of each stick action.....

By matt435 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jason, I agree with brandon, Once you get to know your max and get some time on the sticks you will be able to turn without tearing up the grass to bad. What type of tires do you have? Matt

By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Answers and more questions...
Matt: I'm running 22 inch Carlisle Chevrons, not too much tread on them.

Tim: I can run across the lawn making BIG wide sweeping turns without any tearup, that's fine. I can't seem to do any sharp or semi-sharp turns though. I know I can't spin on a dime without tearing things up, but the only turns I seem to be able to do without ripping things are very wide turns. I can't always make big sweeping turns as I need to get into and between the apple trees and stuff to clear, so sometimes I need to do tight turns. So Tim, and others, how do you turn without tearing things up? Please Help!!

Isaac: I have no idea what you were trying to describe. Can you explain it in terms that those of us who haven't taken the machine apart can understand? It sounded useful if I understood any of it, which I didn't.

By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Tim, I missed something in my previous response. "adding tracks it will be hard to tell you even drove across the lawn". I thought the tracks would tear up everything, no? I know they reduce ground pressure, but with so much surface on the ground it seems like they would really tear things up on a turn. I'm not at all concerned with water ability (The Buffalo truck isn't a strong swimmer anyway), but I am concerned with being able to use it clearing my woods without trashing the yard. What are tracks like in the summer? Less impact yet? Hmmmmmmmm
Thanks.

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey jason: the t-20 tranny is as a matter of fact two transmision sharing the same housing.....each one is controled by one stick ( left stick/right stick)..each side consist on two drums ( one drum attached to input shaft ( the pulley shaft) and the other drum attached to output shaft thru planetary reduction gears( the sprocker shaft)...with foward/reverse stick you can control witch drum is linked to the input shaft....between the drums on each side an opposed rotation link is constant...the 2 brake bands labor is to secure the drums with the housing...so you need to "brake" one drum in order to link the input shaft with the output shaft.....if you don't "brake" one drum ( change funtion with forward/reverse stick) then you get "free spin"......and that's the key for propper adjustment...on the outside of t-20 you can notice a level ( bellcrank) that hold the 2 bands on each side....by adjusting the bolt at the end of each band ( cylinder plugs) you can get " two brake released....equal to smoot turn...

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

jason, i think isaac was saying it would be usfull to loosen the bands, anyway i tryed that, i think the primery contact erea of the bands could use narrower lining , that might increse the force nesesary to engage the brake action and alow gradual, controlable & predictable engagment (fethering)you'd think in thirty years sombody would have done som R & D in this direction.

By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Isaac and David, Thanks for the tips. In a nutshell... so if I loosen the bands a little, I'll get more gradual engagement of the brakes/tranny at a cost of increased force needed for braking actions? Has anyone done this and does it really help? Makes sense.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

jason, your trans is new and will loosen a little with use, i have tryed loosening mine and am not shure if it helped, mine still seams to grab,
in the above post i was thinking of a modification that might help.

By Tim Wafer (Iflyrctoo) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jason
I have RI's all rubber track and my experience with them is they do very little damage to the grass. That is until I added cleats to mine for deep snow this past winter. Cant say what other track systems would do. Before I added cleats though I know I could turn much sharper than with the Rawhide III tires without tearing things up. There are no deep lugs on this track and it seems to slide around very easily. I have one spot on my lawn where I normally enter the field where I am forced to make a sharp 90-degree turn. IN the spring when I would still have the tracks on the grass was fine but as soon as I switched to tires the grass disappeared there.
Tim

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jason, You have a couple of things here. 1st off with your Buffalo, you are closer to 1035 lbs with gas and a battery unless you have done some radical metal chopping. You are about 50% heavier than a max II 450T - that is a lot. I don't know the width of your tires, but you have a PSI on the ground problem with the Buffalo (and some other machines I will not directly name). Your best bet is with as wide and as big a tire and as bald a tire as you can find if you want no footprint on the ground.

It takes about 25 hours for your tranny to loosen up and I don't think you should do any band adjusting until you have in excess of 9 inches of travel in the lever from all the way forward to all the way back. Please do not disconnect the springs. If you will turn like any other vehicle has to in tight spots (go forward a little - go backward a little, go forward a little) turning very softly, you can turn without marking the ground. Hold your hands real steady (rest them on your knees if necessary) and move them just a little bit and you will have the tranny partially engaged. Practiace - going backwards it is very easy to master - just a little harder going forward. You do have to be able to hold your arms still while they are extended. Can you hold your sticks in neutral (tranny is fully in gear) and roll down a hill? Find a small hill 10 to 15 feet long go straight up it and when you get about five feet up, pull your sticks to neutral and hold yourself on the hill. Then pull then into neutral and roll backwards down the hill. Then you can do this at will, go up the hill, stop (holding yourself still with the sticks partially engaged) and then fully engage the sticks and go on up the hill.

Many people do not know how to operate their T-20 to get the most out of it. Learn how to make it do what you want to do and you will know why some of us "really like" the T-20.

By ISAAC EISENMAN (Tropicjungleboy) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hey jason and plasticmaster (david):

the way to adjust the band in order to get exactly what you want ( soft turns when use light pressure on sticks) is to raise (jack up) aatv and support it directly under frame ( to get free flow on chains)..with seat bench removed ( to get accsess to t-20 adjustment section)one driver on stick ( better the one that's going to drive aatv and exactly know what they want!!!)move and test sticks with tranny on forward and another helper who will turn/spin left/right tires...it's also an excellent moment to adjust and lube chains!!!..it's a fact!!!!!you will love precision bouncing!!! you will knew that you have fine tunning your t20 when:

* tranny forward..stick forward...helper can't spin tire if you catch by hand the tranny's belt pulley ( FULL TRACTION MODE...NO "3 WHEEL SYNDROME"!!!)

* tranny forward...stick half way back ( 3-5 inches)...helper can spin wheel when you catch tranny's pulley.also you can spin the tranny's belt pulley when helper catch tire....(FREE MOMENTUM..ENJOY IT!!!)

* tranny forward...stick all way back ( 6-10 inches)...helper can't spin wheel but you can spin tranny's belt pulley....(FULL BRAKE MODE)

* tranny in reverse...stick forward helper can't spin wheel but you can spin tranny's belt pulley (FULL BRAKE MODE)

* tranny in reverse...stick half way back..helper can spin wheel when you catch tranny's belt pulley..you can spin tranny's belt pulley if helper catch the tire...( FREE MOMENTUM ENJOY IT!!!)

* tranny in reverse...stick all way back..helper can't spin wheel if you catch tranny's belt pulley.. ( FULL TRACTION MODE...NO "3 WHEEL SYNDROME"!!!)

hope that this explanation will help....

note: since t-20 is as a matter of fact two tranny sharing same housing remember to finish one side ( left or right) before start other side..that's mean only left up/left down plunger adjustment to control left tire bench (3)...pulling out the plunger means more band action over drum...( equal to less brake when plunger get inside t-20 housing)..enjoy it!!!

By Charger69 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I used to have an old attex with the original molded hub wheels. I always kept the air pressure around 3 psi but never did any damage to my lawn even when making 90 degree turns. The old fashioned baloon tires and light vehicles I have seen all seemed to have very low impact. Unfortunately I no longer have an ATV or know anyone with one so there is no way to verify this. Besides I have never seen or driven one of those max atv's myself, I would really like to sometime.One final word, I did build a homemade tracked vehicle with a friend using conveyer belts as track material. smooth with no cleats. Even with a volkswagen engine there was almost no way to ruin a good lawn. Besides, who really cares?

By Jason on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Who really cares? My Wife! (LOL) Actually so do I, our yard is wooded with lots of rock gardens and flower gardens. A few arched skid/dirt patches really don't complement it very well. In the woods, who cares, it keeps the scrub down so I'm happy. I guess part of the problem with the Buffalo is that it's a bit on the heavy side, but with less aggressive tires on it now, a few more hours on my part on the sticks, and making big arched turns when on lawn... it works pretty well. For all the benefits the Max has, I can live with this I guess. Thanks for the tips Charger69.

By Charger69 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jason, I am happy that you have found a way to tame your MAX buffalo. You are a lucky guy to have a nice big yard with woods and lawns and gardens. Right now I live in a suburban home with a tiny yard since my house was destroyed. I still have parts of a sierra trail boss which just has to be restored! This route 6x6 website is so cool that I just have to build another six-wheeler. In the meantime I still have my antique skid steer loader and it is my utility vehicle right now. By the way I have been using it all around the yard and the lawn is ok. The mustang loader has forward and reverse controlled by the sticks and even though it is very heavy I can make turns by going forward and reverse many times to avoid tearing the grass. One more thing you might want to notice is that the inner radius wheels always cause more wear than those outside. on an ATV at higher speeds the weight usually goes to the outside radius wheels which causes less damage. With the loader I can also get a wheelie going during turns (unloaded of course) which keeps only two wheels in contact with the ground. Anyway this whole discussion has really caused me to think. I am hoping to meet someone with a MAX bufallo around here and give it a try myself. If I ever get another six wheeler going I will gladly try it out also. If you like go ahead and write me, I always like a good challenge and you seem like a nice guy. Keep on six-wheeling!