By lcater on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Has anyone attempted to create a cross country ski track using an Argo or similiar type ATV? I am looking at a Bigfoot with tracks, and wondering the feasibility of doing this in 2-3 feet of packed powder type snow.
Thanks

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Why don't you argo fellas answer his question? I know a Max with the 15" wide solid rubber track will work (even in Montana's cold smoke powder), but he asked about a bigfoot.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

lcater, my dad is a land developer here in Ontario and the one development on the go now has several people in it already that want cross country ski trails made and maintained. The property manager has 2 ARGO 6x6. One is a modified Conquest 6x6 and bigfoot mix. It was custom made and is basically the new conquest 6x6 with slightly different changes. However, he uses his older 6x6 argo (magnum with tracks) to create new trails and he has never had a problem doing this. OFten, their is too much snow to walk through in those areas and the ARGO walks through with no problem. I have also gone through to make tracks when the property manager was away with my 8x8 Magnum. I only got stuck once when I went down the wrong way and ended up on the edge of a huge bank that had no room to turn around in and in 4 feet of snow. The ARGO will do what you are asking, and I find the best way is to run through the area once, and go back and offset your tracks to make them wider and that creates a track wide enough to accomodate 2-4 skiers side by side

By B. Hastings on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred Sowerwine,

I have been lurking on this board for about a year now, trying to pick up tips on different aatv's, as I have several, of different manufacturers. I have got to get this off my chest.

If I were looking to buy a new 6 or 8 wheeler, I can tell you this, after seeing the constant anti-argo attitude and all the unprovoked snide remarks you make to posters on this forum about Argo machines, there is no way on this earth that I would buy another Max. Personally, I think its a good machine, it has its applications, and the Argo has it's own applications, I like them both. But your attitude on this forum is despicable, and if I was a Recreative Industries representative, you would have been muzzled long ago. People like me who are new to the Route6x6 forum, looking for helpful information are immediately blasted with your negativity in almost every post about the Argo machine.

You obviously have a wealth of knowledge about AATV's in general, there is no doubt about it. Do you not think that knowledge could be shared minus the snide remarks and comments? I for one could greatly benefit from your knowledge as well as others on this board, but it never fails, it takes less than one full sentence before the poo starts flingin (and that is putting it MILDLY)

Granted, you are not the only one on this board who likes to sling poo. There are a great many argo users as well. But, you seem to be the dominant "Poo-master" and it gives you a negative image in my eyes. I may be in the minority, but it is just my opinion after watching the poo fling too much.

Sorry, just had to get it off my chest. I love my Argo, and I love my Max as well, but you have soured me from ever buying another Recreative Indutries product, I hope you prove me wrong.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Look B. Hastings, You don't give me any credit at all. I tried to get a poster the information he asked for - no one had responded. I could have told the fellow that the big foot was too heavy to go through that much snow unless it has super tracks, even then, it would be marginal. I could have told him that most Argos lack the top end speed to be able to get up those long inclines (a problem that the Max IV 900T & 950T and the last few years of production of the Max IIs don't have). I could have brought up the discussion earlier on this board about the agro sliding sideways in the snow because the plastic track doesn't have any side to side grippers. The reason I didn't bring up any of this stuff is because I don't know where lcater lives and his snow might have enough consistency to hold a big old heavy Argo up. Lots of Argo owners don't seem to have any trouble in the snow, but I know some who do (or should I say did until they got rid of the offending machine). In snow conditions like we have in Montana, it takes an honest, less than 1 PSI on the surface of ground pressure to stay up and there have been times that I could not haul a full load meaning there are times here that a 0.96 PSI on the ground is too much. My machine with just me in it runs at about 0.60 PSI and I can get almost every where I want to get. Yeah, there are several people who don't agree with my PSI on the ground arguments, but they are all heavy machine owners and for stated reasons must have snow with substance.

You are not the only one to take offense at my remarks and I am sorry that my brand loyalty bothers you and others. Please remember that I do not only state the facts when I talk about Argos, I also point out what I believe to be the shortcomings of the Hydro Traxx, the Predator, the Landtamer, the Amphibitruck, etc. etc. I guess I am dense, but I don't understand why some people think I bash other's machines when I talk abilities and specs (a machine that goes 12 to 15 MPH is no match for a machine that goes 25 to 30; a machine that hauls 700 pounds shouldn't be compared to a machine that hauls 1000; A machine that weighs over 1000 pounds that uses the same tires as a machine that weighs 700 pounds shouldn't be expected to go the same places). If you won't buy RI products because of me, I guess that is your prerogative and might I add, your loss.

In closing, I think everyone is entitled to their opinion - you, yours and me, mine. I don't hide behind a screen name and anyone who wants can easily contact me by this discussion board, email, phone, mail or drive up to my front door. I usually don't blast people until they have blasted me or denigrated the Max machines, but even then, I try to disagree without being disagreeable. I truly am sorry you think my comments are despicable.

By Timothy Schotanus (Mudbuster) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I agree with Mr. Hastings. Lighten up Fred. If Argo's are so bad, then try and get away from one of them in the woods(with an experienced driver). Also I have been a faithfull max-man for 20 years and I am even turned off by your remarks while you are offering so-called advice.

By argoguru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,
Maybe if you wouldn't "act" like an expert on argos when you know very little about them, and your posts' make that obvious, you wouldn't be such a target on the board. Its all good that you think your max is the only machine to have, but if argo made such an infieror machine, then why are they doing so well???
I like the max, but I am an argo guy, and dont hold it contentuous of the people I ride with that own maxes. We have a good time riding together, and each have our own moments of mud hole glory equal. Your problem is you dont participate in the rides and only sit on your computer and enrage people on this board. I really wish you would committ to going on a ride just so you could be introduced to all of us who just like to ride and have a good weekend having fun. I will commit myself to the 13 1/2 hour drive to deepwater if you would commit to come. I know their would be a huge turnout so everyone could meet the montana max man. come show us your stuff big daddy..

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, I for one always think you have a full load,Oh you meant cargo!Is that stuff considered cargo???????

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

so what did fred say this time to get him in such hot water? was it in this thred? if so then i missed it,
freds given up the dispicable habit he had in past years, this im shur of because i read the postes every day,
i have usualy taken the time to say so when he crosseed a line,
prehaps some of you are a little too senstive this week, thats if the post that erked you was in this thred, if it's in another i'l come across it laiter im shur, till then id sugest everyone re-read postes a few times to be shur they take them correctly, i shur dident find anything dispicable here,
otherwise id say so,
i beleave you would have to go back over a year threw the posts to find stuff like your complaining about, id say for this he deserves some slack,chill out dude

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jon, I have posted my limited knowledge with the Argo. I can't help it if there are only about two in the whole state of Montana and when I tried to get a demo, the quad dealer selling them at the time wouldn't give me one (I had been a Max dealer for about five years then). I don't think there has been an Argo dealer in Montana for at least five years and probably more.
The points I try to make come from comparing specs, factory issued specs, and the discussions I have had with people who own Argos or who have owned Argos. Some of my limited knowledge has come from discussions on this board. I might add that you don't have to put your finger in the fire to know that it is hot. When I bought my first Max in 1994, I was initially going to buy an Argo. All I had to go on to make my decision were the factory booklets (not a machine to even look at let alone test drive) I needed a machine to get across a soft swampy area on my place (I needed flotation). I had gotten every machine I tried stuck. I even got my max stuck until I learned how to drive it (first time out, so full of confidence in my Max II, and so disappointed as I walked back to get the tractor and a long rope - wasn't even in the bad part). I might add that I never did get a Buffalo to go through (tried every tire option as well as duals) - needless to say, I'm sure glad I didn't buy the Argo because I would have been turned off on skid steers right then and there (I had already been stung by an Amphicat in about 1968 - loved the concept but hated the piece of junk). I need to add here that I'm not a winch fan and if I can only get through with a winch that I find another way (or another machine). A winch is for emergencies, not every day use and I have never had a winch on a machine I used very much (too much unneeded weight - feel the same about the roll cage, but to have a top now, gotta have a roll cage - and I need a top).

Just checked on Yahoo maps. It is 1323 miles from my house to Deep water (they say 20 hours and 21 minutes driving time). That is about two and a half days both directions the way I travel - one week for the trip. I will make a ride some day, but needs to be at a time my wife wants to do something else reasonably close so we can tie it into a couple week vacation.

OK, guys, I'll try real hard not to enrage anyone in the future. I will not point out the obvious and if some poor sucker buys an Argo (Hydro Traxx, Predator, Land Tamer, etc, etc.) when he should have bought a Max, I guess it is "Buyer Beware". I'll tell you right now though; you fellas are going to have a lot less to talk about if you don't have me to argue with!

By B. Hastings on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David, you're right, it wasn't necessarily the contents of this thread that inspred my post because it was just mild sarcasm here. This has been a culmination of months of reading posts here that made me want to post this. I apologize to the originator of the post for hijacking his thread, but, the cup finally runneth over and I just had to get it off my chest.

Fred, not trying to make you not post, really wanted to make you think about how your posts sound sometimes. You won't catch me beating my chest or having a max vs argo battle with you or anyone else. I have both, and like both. The max may go thru some mudholes better, but the majority of my AATV use is for duck hunting. My MaxIV can't even begin to hold a candle to my Conquest 8x8 when it comes to this. I hunt in some rough swamps and flooded timber, with 1 hr plus drives being the norm. The Conquest will roll over those 24" logs like its a bump in the road, the MaxIV just keeps on hoppin & skiddin tryin to get over it. My buddy has a Max IV, and I have to pull him over a half dozen logs every morning we hunt. Its just the nature of the beast.

Both machines are great, but someone like you Fred, who obviously has so much technical knowledge about AATV's in general have so much to offer all of us. But, for someone who was new to the 'game' and the forum, if I read one your posts, and I owned an argo, there's no way I'd ask you for any help because I'd be afraid you'd go into a 9 paragraph techno-rant about what a POS I had.

You've got a lot to offer Fred, that's all I was getting at, it would just be nice to see it presented in a more informative manner I guess, as opposed to the strict anti-this or anti-that way it sounds.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

B Hastings, not meaning to start a war, but what tires do you have on your Max IV and what tires do you have on your Conquest 8x8? I seldom go through mud holes per se, my max is an all terrain machine. I climb over logs, rocks, climb hills and go through swampy areas. Your above statement about the max IV not crossing logs as well as your conquest indicates to me that you probably have the 21" rawhides. You are defying physics to have that statement true. An Argo with 22" tires and the engine in the front has to have a harder time getting up on a log than a Max IV with 26" tires and the engine in the rear. The max keeps its weight on the ground where the argo has to push its weight over the log. Even a Max IV with 21" x 11" wide tires should cross logs better than an Argo with 22"x 10" wide tires.

Now I gone and done it again.

By Preston on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mr Hastings

Sorry to disagree but my max works better than my friends
argo over the logs, for this reason I do not believe that you
have a max at all, not to get something started, just my opinion.

As richard clark states both the argo and max are good machines

Sam Preston

By B. Hastings on Unrecorded Date: Edit

On my conquest, I'm running 22" rawhide III's, I dont attempt it in my MaxIV(w/26" tires), but my buddy has the 26" rawhides and he just skids down the log and hops(we're talking about some sure nuff logs here 24" and up) the extra set of tires + wheelbase appears to be the ticket in this instance. Believe me, we've tried everything to get our 6 wheelers thru there easier, there are several MaxIV's and Bigfoots in our group, and neither one can go over those logs.

No war started my friend, believe me, I'm not the fighting type. I apologize if my earlier post seemed to attack you, just wanted to give you a view you might not have heard before.

Let me ask you a question, on my conquest, I would like to build a cargo rack/contraption over the front hood, allowing for operation of the hood as well. Given that the Max's engine access is in the rear, you probably have some experience in this area. I'm looking for some photos or ideas for my conquest?

See, I'm trying to tap the knowledge up in that thick Montana head of yours for some good ideas! ;) I just got back from Montana, you've got a beautiful state there. Went on a snowmobile ride up in the Yak wilderness area, and I'm sore as can be. I'll stick with 6 or more wheels on the ground.

By argoguru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,
You would make a good engineer. What looks good on papers and computer model statistics (psi and log crossing, etc. etc.) isn't always the case. driving experience and actual putting a machine to the test is where all the statistics are flushed down the toilet. and the mudbuster is right about catching an argo in the woods, his max IV would be the only one I would be worried about catching me, and of coarse dave berger with that two stroke, hey dave, how does a max two with a 690 cc liquid cooled 2 stroker sound to you? You might see one this summer!!

By lcater on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I test drove the Big Foot today and it went pretty well. I am looking at a 1990 Max IV tomorrow. What sort of things should I be worried about on a 14 year old Max?
What differences are there in the drive system of a Max IV (1990) and a 2003 Big Foot?
Thanks for your help.

By Timothy Schotanus (Mudbuster) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Last year at "Petes spring fling" I got stuck on a log that could not have been more than 6-8inch in diameter. Why does the max4 have a bigger space between the front and the middle than the middle and the rear tires anyway? If anybody wants a laugh its on Dave Bergers video. I probably shouldn't have admitted it because on tape you couldn't see the people behind me pushing. By the way it was daves best tape yet, really worth watching.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

B. Hastings, Yes, there is lots of great real estate here in Big Sky Country. As far as the Argo modifications go, I can't help - maybe argoguru can give you some suggestions. My only question would be why do you want to put more weight on the front end? One more tire question? Why did you go to the rawhide III tire over Argo stock?

Argoguru, got any idea why there are very few Argos in Montana? I still stand by the PSI thing and I'll have to see it to believe it that any Argo can get over a bigger log than a Max IV (even a Max II). Maybe it is the lighter, cleaner air we have here.

By Robert C Pickerd (Tugger) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

MAX....ARGO...what is the problem here? My old HUSTLER with 11X22 TURF tires will cross 24 inch logs with no trouble even in the southeast Alaska muskeg. I've tried both going over at an angle and straight on and both work. 38 hp might have something to do with it too

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

lcater, Don't even consider a 1990 Max IV for a tracked vehicle. If it has the old track, it must be a Hi-flotation track to be any good in powder (even the HI-flot track was marginal) and the new bigger outer bearing didn't come until mid 1995 (older machines cannot be retrofitted with the bigger bearing). For a Max tracked vehicle, go for a 1998 or later and be sure it was set up for tracks by the factory or an RI dealer. The new track which came out in 1997 brought on the new splined axles in 1998 as well as the bearing cages and the outer bearing rail (all required for trouble free operation of a tracked Max). You should have 18 HP at a minimum - the 25 or 27 hp would be better. The higher the elevation and the larger the load, bigger horsepower is much better.

The Argo and Max drive systems are completely different. There are other discussions on this forum about that. You can test the 1990 to see the difference. The 1990 uses the same tranny that is in use on current models and assuming it is adjusted properly, will give the same performance as a new machine.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i have never sean an argo 8x8 cross a big log without something for a ramp , and maxIV's cross big ol logs fine but there uneven tire spaceing dose alow smaller log problems, i realy like to wach bigfoot's cross logs, they look efortles with there even spaced tires, wether it's a big log or small, techniq difers from model to model and brand to brand but the best log crossing showes may come from hustelers with nice big ol tires, tell thouse guys who had trouble crossing the logs to cairfuly get there frount tires on top then give it hell! ooh and of coarse let up once your center tires are on top!
if it dosent grab first time no problem just position you vehicle with the frount tires on top and give it all you got, it's probly best to use low psi in tires cause over inflated tires probly cant grap a log,
i lerned something here on this thred today,
i need a winch on my maxII for extra frount end wheight, extra frount end weight might help me get my skinny ass over logs huh, then again a full tank of gas might also,
argoguru id love to see it,
greg brought one to the jamboree last summer with a triple in it id die for!
it was a verry nice job with the expantion chamber exaust and all, it looked like something you could only hope the factory could do,
if i canot aford to cach up properly with the maintanence on my old beat to death maxII in time for the next jamboree then prehaps i'l bring an attex instead, time will tell
if anyone here wins it big in a lotery please think of me,
ooh and dident fred do a nice job with lcater's question?

By lcater on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Thanks Fred.

By argoguru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred,
I have no idea whats wrong with montana... I do know their is a low population of people in that state which in most ways for a guy like me would be a good thing.

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David Berger, no one seems to want to follow my 8x8 when I go logging on these organized rides. A ramp, I don't think so. I approach at an angle, push one wheel over the top, then straighten up. Long wheelbase and close tire spacing makes it easy.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

just saying what i have and havent sean for myself, and no i havent yet sean one make it,got a nice video of what i mean though, prehaps they had small tires but the body bounced off the log befor tires had a chance, shur looked lame,

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, I just got back after a few days of being up north and I just read your post about the advice you gave someone on Thursday February 26. NO wonder people on the boards give you grief. Your posts says that you could have told the person certain things about the ARGO. Well, in your describing how you held back from telling certain things about the argo, you made a good effort on bashing the hell out of the ARGO for some of their problems in your mind. Thats exactly what gets people ticked off. Me included. For one, you said that you could -- wait, let me quote exactly so I don't get the wrong thing here== ((I could have told the fellow that the big foot was too heavy to go through that much snow unless it has super tracks, even then, it would be marginal. I could have told him that most Argos lack the top end speed to be able to get up those long inclines (a problem that the Max IV 900T & 950T and the last few years of production of the Max IIs don't have). I could have brought up the discussion earlier on this board about the agro sliding sideways in the snow because the plastic track doesn't have any side to side grippers.)) While describing how you were avoiding giving these "facts" you started bashing the ARGO. I havn't driven a MAX or even seen one in person. I have only heard about them, what they can and can't do, and as ugly as I think they are, and as cheeply built as my prejudice mind says they are, I would gladly take one, learn how to drive it, and give it a very fair chance and if it proved to be better than my ARGO, than I would be proud to even own one. All Im saying here Fred, is maybe you should just be a bit more open to opposing machines. Yes, I agree with a lot of your psi on the ground statements, but at the same time, the ARGO isn't nesessarily a heavy machine. It happens to do just fine with its weight and the tracks are great in snow. SOme may want rubber tracks or different tracks, but the truth is, the ones they make work great, they last a hell of a long time and the machines stand up to more abuse than I have been able to give mine. Only now am I having problems with my ARGO because its 15-17 years old, never really had much done to it, and its has almost 700 hours on the clock now, and I am only just replacing the chains for the first time, the bearings are shot, but only in the past year or so, the engine is fine, and the tranny has NEVER, EVER had a problem other than my belt shearing apart but that was because of a error on my part that caused that. Im not saying MAX does have more problems, im just saying that the machines that you are opposed to are in fact great machines, do what they are meant to do and more, and they are built to last. The guy that used to service our ARGO has had one of his for about 17 years now, has almost 3 thousand hours on the clock, never replaced the engine, never had many problems other than chains stretching and bearings needing replacing after time. These machines are amazing in what they can do, and I don't doubt that MAX is any different as far as what it is capable of doing- I'll even go as far as to say that it may even go through a bit more because it is a lighter machine and it is built that way for that reason. Personally, I think the advice you give people about the MAX is great. I can't say if its right or wrong as I don't have one. However, I don't think you should be bashing the ARGOs nearly as much as you do simply because you don't have one, so you can't really say. Until you have one, leared how to drive it- and drive it very well (like to the level you can drive your max) and really seen what they go through and do, don't make comments about them. Now, at the same time, I do respect the fact that you don't bash ARGO alone. You have good things to say usually, don't let that slip by here, Im just trying to get to the fact that you are too opposed to something you don't have experiance with- Please don't take this the wrong way, and I hope this doesn't upset you. I honestly and just trying to get you to see that some of the comments you make may be taken offensivly by some and they aren't always needed either. Keep on giving people help and advice, but just tone it down a bit and people won't go at you as much- they can go at me instead! No hurt feelings I hope and again, please don't take this the wrong way.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, why does the max need modified bearings or bearing cages and the outer bearing rail? I know what the bearings are, but what is a bearing rail exactly- This I havn't heard of before. Why wouldn't they just make all the MAX vehicles in a way so that their isn't any modification needed for tracks. Don't really want to say this but the ARGOs don't need any modification for tracks unless its a Bigfoot or Conquest 6x6 as far as I know. (Hey Guys, do they have tracks for the Conquest 6x6 and bigfoot or do you have to switch the tires over to runnamucks?) When I say as far as I know, I know that the models that have stock runnamucks are fine with tracks, but I don't think the rawhides on the bigfoot and conquest 6x6 are small enough to accomodate the tracks unless they changed them- not sure of that one. But back to the MAX, what are these bearing rails and what is their purpose, and why are they required for tracks on a max?

By B. Hastings on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sorry it took so long to repond Fred, the reason I dont have the "stock" tires on my 8x8 anymore is because they are a joke. Runnamucks are a POS, as far as my application is concerned, I went with the much more aggressive Rawhide III's to get more traction. It's like night and day when you're in the deep south gumbo mud. I have no idea what that one guy is talking about when he says that he hasn't ever seen an 8x8 cross a log like a MaxIV? IT has nothing to do with horsepower, its all about wheelbase when crossin the big boys. I'm just tellin you, for 45 out of 60 days of waterfowl season, I pulled a MaxIV over no less than 4 logs every morning. This guy can drive the wheels off of his MAX, much better than I can either my argo or my max, but, given the conditions, i.e. 24" log in 1.5 to 2 ft of mud and water, the Max wouldnt go over it. I think he has a 27hp motor in it as well, so its not a horsepower issue.

On the big logs, I can normally hit them square, in low range, and just crawl/walk the machine right over it no problems, except for icy conditions, then there is a bit more spin.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dear David K., I caught heck for a post that was a "good post". lcater asked for advice primarily about a bigfoot and no one responded. I tried to elicit a response from some Argo people (you took the bait and gave him some info - I might add that to date no one else, especially no Big foot owners, gave him any advice). My post was to tell him that a Max would do the job without cutting down argo at all. After catching heat, I blasted agro in my way of stating what I consider to be well established facts (once the gloves go on, I fight to win). As the thread progressed, I find out I am catching it for past posts and obviously several do not understand or care for my writings.

You need to understand that snow comes in many different consistencies and when it falls on very cold low humidity days that it is lighter than feathers. Here in Montana, we ski in waist deep powder (not always, but occasionally) and it is so light that there is no more resistance than if being in ankle deep powder most other places. In those conditions, very few machines can go (even a max is limited to easy slopes). I just think that if the Argo was a capable snow machine in Montana snow conditions that there would be more out in it being used. Maybe you can help me understand something, you seem to have a connection with the Argo factory. According to the brochures and their web site, all the Argo machines have the same PSI on the ground (2.1 PSI with tires and 0.67 with tracks) doesn't seem to matter how much the machine weighs, what tires are on or which track. I don't know what their stated shipping weight really means so I don't have the info to make accurate calculations. Just doesn't make sense to me that every model, regardless, has the same PSI on the ground.

Now about Max tracks. The rail (actually called an axle support rail) attaches to the outside of the bearing cages to tie all three axles together at a point farther out than the body. The new track (solid rubber belt 15 inches wide) exerts tension on the axles and when the machine turns, it exerts enough tension that they were having axle breakage with the original setup. RI as usual fixes all problems and to fix this, it took new axles, bearing cages and the axle support rail. The extenders and rail are only needed when the tracks are on and just add weight and width with just tires. Some leave their extenders and rails on all the time (I don't because I try to keep my machine as light as possible). RI probably could have gone to a bigger diameter axle to solve the problem, but that would have added weight and been a complete redo of the drive system and would have been overkill for most situations. All the needed parts are part of the track kit and included in the tracks weight. IMO, the reason argo does not have the problem is because with a linked track, each link connector takes part of the tension (but it does provide a gap which lessens the contact area). There are tradeoffs in life. The new Max track works very well, but it did require some redesign. The important thing to me is that it is a product that will go in the snow we have here and I feel confident in using and encouraging others to use. When machines fail in harsh conditions, it is not good. When you got your machine stuck in four feet of snow, how did you get out? Did you have a ten mile walk?

By Travis Chrystal (Travisch) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I agree with B. Hastings. Fred is actually an anti-sales REP for Recreative Industries. I'll bet he pushes more people to buy an argo then a Max just because of his attitude. I've owned several Argos & a MaxIV. They both have their place but I do like one alot more then the other - I just don't run my mouth on this message board like a fool.
Fred - Its better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think your a fool then to open it and remove all doubt.

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Travis, I see another member of my fan club has resurfaced - welcome back. Guess it must be about time for Ken Thompson to get back in the fray. Who do you think I should contact at the Argo company to get my commissions? Hell, I must sell what for them, maybe thirty or forty machines a year, huh? Gimme a name, I want my deserved cut.

Did you ever figure out how to drive that Max?

By Roger Smith on Unrecorded Date: Edit

You have been a very bad boy for an extended period of time, Fred. So now you're getting a group spankin'.

You wonder why argo axles and bearings don't fail with track use? No it's not the track type, argo's have stress on the end axles too. They build the thing solid from the factory. It weighs more, but you don't have to R&R a bunch of bracing and hardware on the outside of the vehicle twice a year. You can have your beer can ultra light fluffy powder vehicle, I know you need it. :)

(sarcasm off)

I like Max's, having a couple of them would be great, and some others... a house in the Rockies with a glass wall to the shop so I could see them from the living room.

You give good tech advice, I like a lot of your ideas. When you talk about kinds of snow.. things you've experienced, your writing rings true. It is the truth. Making ASSumptions of yourself about a product line that you're uninformed about to some extent, undermines all the other good posts you make. Max and Argo have their lists of strenghts and pitfalls, it isn't hard to see, if viewed without an agenda.

By Don Abernathey (Dla) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sorry guys, I have to disagree with you. Fred is one the few intellectually bright bulbs in an otherwise dim forum.

I look forward to Fred's view specifically because he is rational, articulate, and knows how to spell.

If it weren't for Fred's illumination, I wouldn't bother using this forum for information.

So I suggest that you Fred-detractors stop, think, perhaps learn a bit and THEN post.

By Big Wolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

This is an interesting discussion regarding tracks on both the Argo and Max machines. I wish to stay out of the mud slinging part of the discusiion and just talk about tracks and track kits myself. Running tracks on any type of machine will put some increadible forces on your axles, bearings and drive trains in any case period! If you do run tracks year round all season, it will only add to the wear and tear on the bearings and axles, chains and sprockets period!

What I find very interesting is that the new Max machines are running the same type and size of solid splinned axle shafts as the Argo models have. And the new Max machines are using real sealed bearings on the axles which are very similar to the Argo style bearings also.

The new Max machines use a high quality "O"-Ring drive chains through out, and single stacked sprckets throughout the drive train, and the Argo use a standard type double stacked chain and sprocket set up. This item to me is like having six on one and half dozen of the other type thing. There is plenty of safety factor in a single chain set up when sized correctly. You will get chain stretch with any and all types and brands of chain used in either case!

With the Max machines you must install six inch wheel extensions to allow the tracks to clear the body areas, and install the axles support brackets to tie each side together for added strength. The added wheel extentions pushes the bend moment out farther to the end of the axle shafts closer to the wheel, which is the worst thing that you could do. The new Max machines when prepared for the track kit will come with an outer bearing extention cage and outer bearing on all six wheels. This does make good sense to do, although it adds a couple of hundred bucks to the machine cost.

The Argo I do believe runs outer bearing cages and bearings on only the front and rear axles of machines that are prepared to run tracks. That is fine also, Argo must feel those are the highest stress points on their machines when running tracks. I am not sure if Argo uses wheel spacers to push the wheels out farther to clear the body or not. If not, then they probablt do not need to add further outer axle reinforcement.

I think that in either case hard plastic type Argo or Tru-Trax tracks, versus the all rubber type tracks in snow and ice conditions, you will probably see very similar forces applied. When you attempt to run either machine all season on hard dirt and rock surfaces, then you would see some tremendous forces applied to the axles in all cases. The hard plastic tracks would tend to slide a little easier versus the rubber tracks, however, the huge forces are still going to be there.

The wider and longer the tracks are the more surface tension or resistance you will see. The 6x6 machines as compared to the 8x8 machines will experience much lower surface tension forces while turning as comapered to the 8x8 machine which has a much larger surface contact area. Now this is where the Argo Avengers newly redesigned wheel height set up comes into play. With the raised wheels on the front and rear of the machine, it should reduce the surface tension which will reduce the forces on the axles and bearings. Even with this new design thought process, I would still suggest adding the outer bearing cages and bearings, they are proven, and will increase the bearing life over the long haul.

For those that are thinking about runnig dual wheel applications, you will also see increased forces applied to the axles and bearings, and it will wear away at the drive trains in either case also. These are just things that you want to think about and keep in mind for your individual applications. This is not meant to scare any one away from buying these machines, or brow beat any one over their choice of machines. You will not wear out your machines over night or in a years time frame running tracks or dual wheels. You just have to keep in mind that running these types of special set ups particualarly year round all season, will wear at you machines drive train, and will require that you do an over haul sooner than if you ran single wheel application all the time!

And in closing, this just to talk a little bit about that Hydro-Trax machine and toss it into the mix. With the Hydro-Trax machine because it uses hydraulic motors on each and every wheel, and because it has the ability to drive one side forward and one side reverse at the same time, and is not acting like a skid steer set up, it will exert much lower forces on the axles and bearings because of the way it can drive the wheels. I would have to guess that machine out fitted with tracks should out last the Max and Argo skid steer machines outfitted with tracks in the long run. (Speaking of the drive trains of course)!

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred, I am going to look into the PSI thing with the ARGO as soon as I can. I did notice that as well last week and it doesn't make much sence to me. The only thing I can think of it that they didn't want to put several differents specs up so they mark them all the same. I did have a list of stuff that had shipping weights and various other things on it and I'll try to find that and send you a copy. Their used to be a spec thing on the ARGO site that actually had the shipping weights marked on them but I havn't looked for that lately so I'll see if I can find it on there. NO, I don't have a connection with the factory, but I kind of do. I know a few people who used to and are dealers in the area and I talk to them very regularly- Whenever I have a question from reading the boards or in general, I use them as my go-to people to get the info I need. I will ask them about the PSI thing too if I get a chance this week. I know where you are comming from there though and it can't be right.

Do you think that RI will eventaually do a reworking of the MAX to eliminate the need to re-enforce the axles and other components? I think the idea of using 1 chain to drive that side is a good idea but if for some reason it broke, you don't have anything to drive that side- unlikely the chains would actually break, but if it did, the ARGO design may be a bit better- But I'll tell you one thing, having to replace 4 chains per side, then the idlers and those small other ones that go from the idler shaft at the bottom to the second axle back to drive those chains- WAY TO MUCH F&#$#)g work for me! I have been swapping old worn chains for a few months now to keep the ARGO running but I am now finally at the point where the ARGO don't go till its fixed- The chains are all pretty much at the end of their life and because some are so loose, the others are taking a beating and my back chains (replaced only about 2 years ago this summer) are almost dead also as they have been taking the beating- having bad bearings also doesn't help but those will get done with the chains in the next few weeks- or at least I hope they do! I can finally afford half the chains I need, the other half will be there soon and my dad finally agreed to deal with the bearings and then I will get the brakes done soon after (within 30 hours of the rest)

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Fred, one other thing you were asking me about- when I got stuck in that 4 feet of snow and couldn't turn around- I was luckly with someone and I had taken a spade shovel with me so we dug a small area up just behind the ARGO, and while we lifted the back end slightly, we packed down some of the snow under the tracks and with some of the snow behind packed down and some moved completly, I was able to back up enough to get some power to start into a turn. Then It was a forward, backward, forward, backward and out thing. I got it turned around and got back onto the right trail. To this day, I dred making that mistake again and almost did it this fall. That area is now marked so I remember where not to go! The problem with that trail was their are two that look the same to start, one goes down a huge hill and turns into a very steep drop I almost ended up going down ( thats where I got stuck) and the other one goes around the drop area where I got stuck and into a wetland area and back around to the other side of the development. If I had to walk, it would have only been about 15 minutes to the nearest house and I know the people there as they are the sales persons for the development and my Dad (the developer of that area works with them all the time and they know I was working the trails that day.)

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Rodger, You are right, I have been considered a "bad boy" most of my life. I wear that title like a badge of courage. I can take what you fellas dish out, because I have the facts on my side. Even though, as you said, I talk "about a product line that you're uninformed about to some extent" , I seem to hit the nail on the head. How does that go - "I think thou protesteth too much". Funny how most of the whining comes when the conversation hits a sore spot. If you guys would be honest, the things I find fault with on the Argo and other machines are those machines weak points. When the conversation comes to problem areas on the Max, I don't whine, I tell people how to deal with it or suggest something that might make it better. If it is something that we just have to live with, I say that too. Anyone who owns a certain machine has to live with that machine or get another. There would be a lot fewer low hour machines out there for sale (not counting dealer demonstrators in that) if everyone was honest about abilities.

In real life, I say very little during a sales presentation. I just give a demonstration ride. When it is over, (if they believe what they just witnessed and I didn't completely scare the crap out of them), they know what a max will do. I'm still over 95% sales to demonstration ratio (was 100% for quite some time, but it does take a while for some people to get things together - had one fella take five years from demonstration date to purchase).

I guess to put this board in a nutshell, I just like to rattle some chains every now and then. It is pretty easy to get a rise out of some.

By terry harrison (Th3) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

(hehehe...poo-master...hehehe) i love this board....

in general, each machine has its good points and bad. some machines have more than others. it seems there are people on this board that want to compare apples to oranges and have a hard time understanding the apples to apples concept. poo-master gives just gives the facts (as painfull as they may be). thats no reason to turn red in the face and launch a personal attack (although i got a good laugh over fred's new nick name, hehehe). ok, really, lighten up people.....

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have looked around for a while now and I can't locate a MAX dealer anywhere around where I live. The closest one is about 6 hours away in some little place I havn't even heard of. I am in Toronto Canada and have searched endlessly trying to find one. DOes anyone know where their is a max dealer in Ontario- preferably within a reasonable distance from Toronto?

Their are a few ARGO dealers popping up lately and I have also noticed that more people know about these vehicles. Most of them have heard about them through a friend or something, but few have actually driven one. Its nice to see them gain some popularity (a bit anyways) I have even seen two or three being used in the city in the past 8 years. I think the one was being used by the power company and another was used for - I can't remember now. I really want to get down to one of the rides that you guys go to every year and see what these machines can really do. The riding I do at my cottage and in the terrain I am in, is likely nothing compared to what you go through there. THe scary part is, I think that I go through some pretty rough areas that push the ARGOs limits but then I look at some of the pictures from the rides and read what people say about them and realize that I really havn't fully tested out my ARGOs limits. If anyone in the area wants to do a ride I am always up for it. I am in Toronto as I said above and my cottage is up on the Bruce Penninsula. We have to do something up here sometime!!!!

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David K, Have you checked all these from the RI web site?

JERRY BURNHAM
FOREST LAWN AND GARDEN
1236 KINGSWAY BLVD
SUDBURY ON P3B 2E8
705-524-7791

MARK LEGUE
J.S. MAX MACHINES
112 COLUMBIA
LONG SAULT ON K0C 1P0
613-936-9300

GAETAN GAGNON
C.G. AMPHIBIOUS SIX WHEEL
40 ST CLAIRE
KAPUSKASING ON P5N 2B6
705-337-6342

LARRY HOUGHTON
HOUGHTON TRUCK TRACTOR REPAIR R.R. #5
WOODVILLE ON K0M 2T0
705-439-2118

LEN GAUTHIER
STAMFORD HOME HARDWARE
3639 PORTAGE ROAD
NIAGARA FALLS ON L2J 2K8
905-356-2921

RON POYSER
ATHRON RECREATIONAL PRODUCTS 101 COLDWATER RD
BOX 130
COLDWATER ON L0K 1E0
705-686-3615

By Larry Houghton on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David. I am a Max dealer in Woodville Ont. It is about an hour and a half northeast of Toronto between Lindsay and Beaverton.Let me know if you want to take one for a ride.You can reach by hone . My no. is 705-439-2118.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

david maybe you can talk roadwolf into going with you when you decide to attend a ride at copper ridge, he has attended a humphrey event in the past and he is nearby to you, just 1 hour from toranto,

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Larry, Thanks a million- I am going to give you a call in the next week or two and set up a time to come up there and try it out. I know where Lindsay is and Beaverton rings a bell.

Fred, thank you for the contacts. Until Larry told me where he was, the closest on was the niagara falls one- Len Gauthier

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Larry Houghton- I would like to set up a day to come up there and test out a max depending on your timing and mine. I will have a few days here and there free between March 12-23 when Im not working so I will get in touch with you tomorrow if I get a chance and try to set something up. I don't have a fixed schedule at work so I can't say exactly but if it works for you, weekdays are slightly better for me as I am not going to be around much on the weekends.

Please let me know if you are going to be around over the March Break or not and if it doesn't work for you, then I will wait until sometime in April to come up. Please be advised though- I am not prepaired to buy a MAX, I am just very interested in testing one out to see what they are like etc. Is this alright?

David Keeso

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Larry, if you were going back to Woodville from Toronto, what would be your route?? I am going to look at a map later tonight but just to give me an idea.

By Larry Houghton on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David K. The best to do is call me before you come. I dont mind if you go for a ride. The best way to get here is come up #12hwy to #7 hwy. east north of sunderland.Go right to hwy#46 then turn left or north to Woodville then turn right to Sandringham rd. then left and go north can't miss me. I hope to have aMax IV here as I sold my last one on Friday. Let me know what you decide.

By David Keeso (Argomag) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Larry, I am thinking about maybe comming on Friday or Saturday if one of those works for you- That is the 12th or 13th. Please let me know if one of those works for you- I will call you later this week to confirm if I am able to come up there. I looked at the map and have the right directions to get there based on what you told me in your last post. Is it the Truck Tractor Repair that I am going to to meet you?

Looking forward to hopefully testing out a MAX

By Larry Houghton on Unrecorded Date: Edit

David, Friday or Saturday will be fine, and yes it is the truck repair that you are looking for. Here is my e-mail adress lhoughton@quicklinks.on.ca Let me know what you are doing.