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	Archive through March 1, 2001	43

By Joel Haslett (Rustyjeep) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Marc has there been any interest in an organized 6x6 race? I got thinking about this after competing in a "One Lunger "snowmobile race several weeks ago. The race was put on as a fund raiser for a local snowmobile club. The snowmobiles had to be made in 1973 or older and be single cylinder only. I thought if they could do it why couldn't a bunch of 6x6s do it. The club had insurance for the event and there were other costs involved like $500 to the winner.I'm sure a lot of work for the club. Everybody had a blast,I didn't know I could have so much fun on a $100 snowmobile(borrowed a motor from my son's Attex).I posted one picture on my profile page.

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I understand that there are still a race in Ashtabula, Ohio during the summer. Gill or Jim Chaney can probably tell you when.

By Jerseybigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Got the 440 liquifire Scrambler up to 55mph and the trans belt disintegrated. Clocked it with a GPS. Has anybody determed how accurate clocking with a GPS is? I would think the longer the distance the higher degree of accuracy. Photos on http://srambler.homestead.com/SCRAMBLERS.html

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

jerseybigfoot,
If the belt disintegrated as you say I dont think the speed is really revelent, your just crazy. would love to take a spin in it myself.

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jerseybf,

Better watch out I dropped off a scrambler at pete c's place. hehehe that race should be interesting!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

ooh i think interesting would begin if Mark S. would dig out his old racing scrambler,
(THE ONE IN ROUTE6X6'S 70'S RACING VIDEOS)
HOW ABOUT IT MARK?

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dave
Unfortunatly the one in the video is long gone. I gave Petec the last bits of my HD carb stuff to get his 340 running. Petec racer is factory so it will probably survive some abuse. My 440 is all abuse so its survival will depend upon upgrading the weak links. The race will be scheduled!!!!! Anyone want to join?????

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Marc,

Sounds like a plan I'm game :)

By JT Barleman on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jerseybigfoot:
Race ...! What race ...? When ...? Where ...?
Please don't say the first week of June 2002 ... because ... I have a driver for my Attex. He's a "nutso" cop frind of mine ... with one ball the size of a watermellon and the other a BIG mother. :)

Incidentally ... He doesn't run out of intestinal fortitude (GUTS) like I do ... when the tires grow ... get real skinny ... and the damn thing starts "floating around" at speeds above 50 MPH.

OBTW : Instead of a GPS to measure speed ... I run it on a STRAIGHT dirt road (where you can really open it up) and have someone follow it in a pace car and watch the speedometer.

JT aka namelrab@sgi.net

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hehehe. oh boy :) I just love the smell of two stroke in the morning :)BTW- Merry Christmas to all and happy new year and god bless all we lost on Sept 11th.

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

If I remember correctly it's the smell of castrol and alcohol in a 2 stroke that gets you high. Of corse I am giving my age away. I guess you can try and run a 4 banger on alcohol for the same effect.
Like the man said once you try a 2 cycle you can never go back.
If anyone is serious about possibly racing an exibition event let me know. We would need about 10 confirmed entries to get some track time at an ATV/MC park.

By Joe Haser on Unrecorded Date: Edit

This race is a great idea! I would like to offer any help that I can to get this together. There is a very nice track here in Western PA if that would be a good location, where are all you guys with the 440's & 500's from? I will register properly on this siter when I get my own E-mail address. Until then you can write me at docbusterbarrels@aol.com I will enter my Superchief twice to make 10 entries if I have to.

By Pete Cagle (Petec) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i will be in . i plan on doing some timed drags of 150 yds and 300 yds at this years spring fling in NJ my little 340 racer needs alot to catch Marks 440 i have ran it and watched him blow the belt in the field across from my home . the photos on my site were just before i had to tow him home with my ARGO 8

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well i guess i'l have ta bring an attex too! my sick old max aint as fast as an attex, and if i want to get any video at all i'l need an attex to keep up, heh heh heh heh

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Guys,

Cramming a Rupp 440 in the Attex. I'm in! Pete C that scrambler turned out pretty nice. Marc's got the advantage on us though because he's got liquid cooled cylinders. I'd bet that thing screams like a pissed off witch :) Geez what a cloud of blue smoke we are going to produce!

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

funny you should pick that combo pete, my fist swap into an attex was a 440 rupp! damm thing scwatted and then leaped and came down burning the tires !!
it pushed my head back and the wind in my eyes blew the tears across my forhead at the same speed as the blood ran to the back of my skull, i almost pased out and i did momentarely go blind but as soon as i knew what was hapining i pulled them damm sticks back, good damm thing too as i was already 60 or 70 feet from the launch site and 5 feet from a fence!
i guesed at that point i would have to learn not to drive it like it still had the 8 hp brigs in it,

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max Dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Sticks, David? I thought they were "laterals"! VBG.

Merry Charistmas to all

By Eddie Beddingfield on Unrecorded Date: Edit

We had better have some ARGO representation, so if it will be in spring or summer i will have vacation. I have 2 ARGO SS, one with 440 Kohler one with 440 CCW. Just say when and where.

By E L Mckenney on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I would love to try my 484 equipped maxiv up against some other 2 stroke competition, II don't have a gps unit but my pace truck fell behind about 50.

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

El,

Pace Truck?!! Hehehe that's funny. Yes I just got my 440 rupp. Just waiting for it to be shipped to me. That should be neat!

By jerseybigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey EL with all that speed have you ever tried to skip over water like a snowmobile? Right now I am considering sand paddle tires for replacements on my 440lc and maybe giving it a shot. Anyone have any expierence with paddle tires in water under normal driving conditions?

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

yes fred, and at that time i realy wanted to write that, but as i was writing to somone who dident understand 6x6 vehicles at all i figured i would be better off talking down a little, i know that you know there laterals,

By Speed on Unrecorded Date: Edit

What are you guys doing, running them on the street!?! It seems the constraint here is the suspension, not the engine. Aren't these 'off-road' machines? If so, then how fast can you go down through the woods, or even a powerline, with whoop-de-doos? 5 or 6 mph, maybe? It seems if we are going to race 'em, we aught to do it in a manner for which they are designed. Think more like Timed Trials than like Motocross. Think tight technical sections with mud, sand, ravines, fallen trees, deep waterholes, steep banks, etc. Something that a four-wheeler or motocross bike driver with any sense would avoid like the plague. If you try to take them on in their environment, you will lose... To win, you must change the rules of engagement. This is what AATV's are made for. In this type competition, low RPM torque will rule, not high RPM horsepower. But, racing just the same...

By jerseybigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Speed, I understand you are new to the board so we will be easy on your post. No we don’t race them on the street. I raced ATV’s in the early 70’s which was basically Motocross with a mud pit or two, track style racing. I produced the race videos that are for sale on this site if you want to see some old ATV racing. All the early manufacturers had racing teams, with ATTEX leading the way. The racing was exciting and affordable. The intension is not to compete with quads and cycles. The intent of this thread is to see if some interest can be established with racing 6x6 vehicles. Speed events have there place as well as trials events. Trials events would be great but difficult to produce. Speed events can utilize existing ORV tracks. I have 3 6x6’s, two are total rebuilds and one partial rebuild racer. Each one has its place. I have rolled the Hustler more than once pushing the physical limits of the machine doing some technical riding. That was exciting but not the same as doing 55mph in the racer.

By Speed on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Jersybigfoot,

I appreciate your kindness, but a couple of questions. Are you saying that you can race around a 21st century motocross track in a 6x6 at 55 mph? How much air do you get over the double jumps? How do you keep the thing from going end-over-end in the whoops? An early '70's track is much more tame than what is around today.

I guess what has thrown me about this issue are the comments like 'I'll show those quads what real speed is!' What you are suggesting is very simular to what I am proposing. I am refering to something more like speed trials (my screen name is Speed after all). Or maybe a better name for it would be Hare and Hounds, if you are familiar with those. Only, make it more knarly. No killer jumps or table-tops, instead have a section filled with 18 inch high logs all criss-crossed. A 6x6 would be able to skim across these and leave the quads in a big knot at the start. How about sand hills with about a 170 degree switchback 3 feet from the top? A deep water crossing that is narrow, but designed to be impossible to jump? Now, stick about 40 AATV's all trying to get to that two-wide switchback at the same time.....

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Guys,

Well I'm just waiting till I drop that Rupp in there and oh boy! :). Speed I don't think JB is suggesting we try to jump 6x6's over tabletops and whoopdeedoo's. I think the main idea is to have some type of track with terrain that would be challenging to an aatv and race them. Also have drags and the like. contrary to popular belief If we keep working on aatv's like this it is possible to ourun a quad on flat land but I do not think that is the intention right now.

By jersey bigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Speed, you seem to be confusing this thread with some other. I have no opinion about quads, their speed versus an AATV’s. Quads have their own place in this world, AATV’s have theirs. Not all ORV tracks are set up just for motocross, some are set up for quads some for 4x4 and buggies. The only 4x4 and buggy track we have in our state would be quite appropriate for 6x6’s set up with a minimal amount of race safety equipment. If we adopt the old NATVA rules that means roll bars, 5pt belts etc. The same ORV park has a quad track that would also be interesting, As far as air time ,6x6’s have been known to get some air. Obviously not like a suspended vehicle but still exciting to watch. There are suspended 6x6’s that have been known to get air like a buggy. The log and water idea is good for and observed trial which would make a neat event. It just would not work for more than one 6x6 at a time. Been there done that in the 70’s. Maybe we should look a Icelandic style 4x4 racing with water skimming and sand wall climbing where HP, traction and speed make the difference. The intent of this post is to create interest, not controversy.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

hi speed, yah the other style of riding go's on anyhow at petes, it's the fast thing we are thinking of exploring, wether or not theres enoph fast vehicles and drivers with nerve may be ansered at petes this spring! after we find out who's is the fastest and second fastest ect...
then it's time to hit thouse swamps and trails ..
the hils and water and my favoret "log crosings"
thats what were there for anyway, now if enoph people have brought there fast vehicles and are still interested in real racing then they can get together to talk about track time and rules ect.. after all you cant realy just start racing in somones feald you know, sooner or laiter the gov. will stop you! it's only sustainable at a lagitamit tracks and under rules ect.. "sanctioned event's"
after all when the funs all over we all want to go home with all our parts right?

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Dave,

Sounds good to me. :) The Rupp 440 is on the way :)

By jerseybigfoot on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Pete6x6 you may want to go to the following site to help you select the trans belt for your transplant. One of the best sites I'v seen on 2 strokes and transmissions. Be careful that you don't look at any of the Formula 500 pictures you may get get too interested. These little race cars are slick, cheap and 130 mph fast. www.f500.org/f500_tech.htm

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

JB,

Awesome site! (Grins) are we gonna have a blast in April or what!

By Speed on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I've changed my mind. I had a little off-road accident last Friday that left me incapacitated for the weekend and I got to thinking while laying flat on my back. The only way to advance the engineering of the beloved 6x6 is to race'em and race'em fast!

I was thinking y'all were misapplying the vehicle when I should have been thinking that the vehicles have not advanced with the times. I might even be interested in putting together a 6x6 with a racing seat & harness with full roll cage and about 7 to 10 inches of suspension travel... What kind of horsepower wil these 440's make?

By JT Barleman on Unrecorded Date: Edit

SPEED...!
A 440 should generate OVER 40 HP. THIRTY years ago ... my Attex 400 Chief came from the factory with a JLO 399cc ... that WAS rated straight stock at 37HP.

WAS is the key word (he-he-he : ])

Keep on bouncing ... AND ... try keeping the rubber side down ... it works a lot better that way ...!

JT

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

speed you still havent filed out a profile?
well 440's tipicly are aprox 38-40 hp air cooled and up if water cooled

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Speed,
A good running 440 should make between 40 and 60 hp depending on the design and condition of the engine. I wanted a bigger engine to get some more low end power as the 295 is a bit to small.

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Speed; Sorry to hear you had an accident 4 wheeling. If you are interested in a 6x6 with suspension contact Jim Cheney (he has a profile in the owners registry)he has one that I think runs on alcohol. The design problem with suspended AAtv's is the wheels submerge themselves too deep below the water line to propel the body by rotating the tires. Thats if you want the unit to float. Years ago Action Age made a 4wheel skid steer that handled as well as a 6x6 which would be easier to build with suspension.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

as to suspended 6x6 vehicles, it needent be concidered a design flaw if the tires submerge too far to propel them in the water, as long as some plan is made to propell them in the water, like a jet pump or just a pair of high thrust troling motors mounted inside the body and with adiquet controle wireing on the dash lets say, and thats just two quick posabilitys right off the top of my head,

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

440 is in Toledo! Won't be long now!

By EL McKenney on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Alright, the voice of experience talking here. I have a MAX IV with a factory chapparal 484cc engine, it is not uncontrollable. the centrifical clutch takes care of our low end torque loss and the standard gearing keep the speeds down to between 45mph and 50mph and your throttle will keep the speed even slower. I have not driven a 4 stroke max so I have no comparisson. I am running on the small tires so that would make a difference in top speed but accordding to the local Argo dealer I would be insane to drive one of his at those3 speeds so I will stick with my 30 year old MAX

By argogeru on Unrecorded Date: Edit

el,
You think 45 to 50 is a controllable speed in one of these machines? Your local argo dealer is right unless you have the proper safety equipment, i.e. roll bar, helmet, five point harness, and neck brace, and liquid courage. I cannot imagine going 45 to 50 mph in a sixwheeler, but I would probably try it once.

By david berger (Davidrrrd) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

typicly the power to do 45-50 is used in short burst's
even if your not moving at 50 the wheeles can while your doin a powerslide,
or if your tryin to climb a slipery hill prehaps,
you will be able to use that power more often than you think.
just not while your following a 4 stroke!

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I have owned both a four stroke Briggs and a 2-stroke Kohler 440cc. After listening to many guys on this board, maybe I just expected too much. A 2-stroke in a 6x6 is worthless. What are you going to do with a 50mph suspension impaired vehicle? It is nice to have fast wheel spin for hills and mud. It is also nice, however, to have a vehicle that holds together long enough to make it to the hills and mud. 2-strokes constantly have one problem after another. That is not an opinion! I would never take a 2-stroke to the places I have taken my Max. It's just too far to walk home.
A four stroke such as a Briggs or Kohler is the only way to go. Quiet, reliable, and perfectly suited to a 6x6. I have modified mine for more speed and wheel spin. It beats a 2-stroke in every way useful in a 6x6. I can't go 50mph, but then again I would need a runway just to get up to that speed.
If you really want some real power, get a small Geo or Mitsubishi engine. That would give you all the wheel spin and accelleration you would ever need.

MaxRules

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Geo or Mitsubishi eh. Real power??? How much did it weigh again? I wouldn't knock the 2 strokes too much. 2 Strokes have come a long way since the 70's. Today almost every snowmobile, ultra light and jetski is a 2 stroke. Obviously they are very reliable. The key to building a reliable 2 stroke 6x6 is the proper selection of components.

By Pete Cagle (Petec) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i will have to agree on the 4s being more reliable . you have to know how to run a 2 stroke or you will break every thing that is weak most of the 2 strokes do have twice the hp and and speed so of course you will wear parts out faster . i own both i like the power speed of my superchief 500 but ride my argo 8 .NATV RACE RULES POSTED ON MY SITE

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon: 99% of the time I agree with you.......this is not one of them. You say that 2 strokes constantly have one problem or another. Last time I checked a 4 stroke has the same parts as a two stroke........and about 30% more!!!! More parts "usually" = more things to break. With your 4 stroke you have valves to burn, springs to break, lifters to gall, and many other parts to break!!!! I have never burned a valve in my Attex, ha ha ha ha ha. I don't see very many jet ski's dead in the water with their unreliable 2 strokes; or moto X racers kicking there bikes because there 2 strokes crapped out. There are unreliable two strokes, and there are unreliable 4 strokes.......stay away from either and you will be fine. You have me on the noise issue; they are loud, thats for sure. On that point I have just one thing to say; "If my Attex is to loud for you, don't worry, give me 30 seconds and I will be so far ahead of you that you won't hear me". I like 4 strokes also; I have one in my Argo. But there is nothing like having 45 HP at your fingertips. "I love the smell of trick and two stroke oil in the morning!!!!"

By mark harding (Promoza) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

well i have a 2 stoke and love i have been around many motors 2& 4 and let me tell you if you know what your doing there fine you must really be a trader to have a polair your bragging abut i'm glad for you but you know i'm a amercan and why do i want a jap pice in my max made in the usa

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Gentlemen,

Well said Mr Harding. So explain to us Brandon if you like 6x6's why you got a 4x4 quad? And may I remind you that polaris uses 2 strokes in quads,snowmobiles and other craft? If 2 strokes were so unreliable then why would a company such as Polaris use them? Anyway the guy riding by you mooning you at the next 6x6 meet will be me in my unreliable 2 stroke Attex! Gotta love two stroke in the morning!

By MaxRules (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I was not putting down all 2-strokes, just the ones in 6x6s. I have a Rotax 800 twin 2-stroke in my Sea-Doo and it is a great motor. I would still prefer a new 4-stroke engine that recently became available. My Doo has a 15 gallon gas tank and it burns it up like there is no tomorrow... or no bottom to my pockets. At more than $1.50 per gallon (over $2 on the lake) I was wishing for a 4-stroke. Another good point for 4-strokes, they use and waste a lot less gas.
I know four strokes have more parts and your arguement makes since on paper. I have seen it in the real world and anyone else who has will agree, four strokes are more reliable and last longer.
I disagree on you being able to leave me behind in 30 seconds. In the terrain 6x6s were designed for, you would not be able to go any faster than my 4-stroke Max.
Hey Mark, Polaris is the only four wheeler that is truly made in the USA. The others have factories here and it's great that they employ some Americans, but our money still goes to the japs. I don't think I brag on it much. Now that you ask, it is so bad a$$. I ride it everyday and to be honest with you, the Max has stayed parked most of the time. It has been a long time since I have had this much speed and power. Polaris really knows how to make a 4x4. There is just nothing like a 500cc high output liquid cooled four stroke. Automatic transmission and push button switch on the fly true four wheel drive. I can't get enough of it. Thanks for asking!

MaxRules

By mark harding (Promoza) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

thank's for the support ride on brother

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

This thread on this board is about racing. If you want to poke around on the trail and complain when a 2 stroke blows by you, start another thread. If you have any interest in racing lets hear it. If you want to talk about your quads go to another board. Lord knows 6x6ers are the minority. If you want to see a racing 6x6 with suspension check out Pete’s site http://racerules.homestead.com/springer.html. OK so it don’t float. But maybe with a body redesign it might. The technology is available for those are interested. By the way the reason the Springer is sitting odd the air shocks leak on the one side. Racing brings about creativity.

By pete6x6 on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mark,

Oh your welcome my friend! So Mark is that a picture of your TWOSTROKE max plowing snow? I though Brandon said two stroke machines were worthless? You think he may have to eat his words? You think after I drop this Rupp 440 in this Attex that I can't hardly pull start because she's a beast he will have a change of heart?

By newmax on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon will your 4x4 go more places than your max?

By promoza on Unrecorded Date: Edit

i have no pro. with the noise of my 2 stroke i put a baffel on it from a slead it sounds great when you can hear it and the power of i like also i plow snow with it and boy it moves it fine i wished i had a 4 stroke but i dont i have a 2 stroke so i'll put up with it now till i hit the lottery to get a new one

By Kevin R. Chandler (Speed) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Marc,

Thanks for the link. This is similar to what I am imagining. I was thinking of moving the joint under the vehicle (end result would be a higher center of mass :( ) to make the swing arm longer allowing more travel without as much camber change. This might also give more ground clearance (especially with shaft drive). If it were to be an amphibian, it might have a hull like the Hoot. Quad-like seating (see the Hoot) would allow the operator to use his legs for additional suspension travel (as do quad and motocross drivers).

By Marc Stobinski (Jerseybigfoot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

It looks like we are going to have some timed drag racing at Pete's Spring Fling. Any one interested contact Pete or myself. We will be teching the machines for safety and require a minimum amount of safety gear.
I might talk Pete into a barrel race depending upon the interest and number of participants. If this works out we will work on some other events.

By TARRAGON on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Guy's: Not that I am an experienced proffesional, but these all seem like toys my 6 year old girl could drive!! I have successfully segwaded into the new "Millenium" with four stroke technology. Ocasionally I get my 300lb. ass out of bed on a Sunday morning before my wife committs me to 10:30 Mass or a gruling day of chores. I grab my two oldest boys and a few Argo's. (My personal machine has been retrofitted with a 65 hp. Briggs&Stratton V-Twin Vanguard) We are still working on a Cam and intake for the Kawasaki FD620. hint: not to wild on the exhaust ports, she needs some back pressure.
My complaint is this-- Why does'nt somebody put the tried and proven "Borg-Warner" design "Skid Steer" tranny in a mid-engine 8x8.
It would sure save me some headaches!!

By MIKE ABBEY on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I GOTTA TELL YOU,AT ATTICA THEY HAVE A STRETCH OF PAVEMENT TO GO INTO THE RIDING EREAS,I GOT OPERTUNITY TO OPEN UP THE 440 IN THE STARCRAFT,MAN ITS A ADRENALINE RUSH,SHE GETS A LITTLE SWERVEY AT 40MPH+,FOR SHORT BURSTS ITS PRETTY COOL ,GOOD WAY TO COOL OFF ON A HOT DAY,I THINK GOOD ATENTION TO AIR PRESSURE IN TIRES AND BETTER THAN MY CONTROL OF THE T-20,ITS PRETTY NEAT.

By ben (24.20.23.41) on : Edit

hi im new to this site but i was wondering if i any of you guys had a argo 8x8 atv becouse im changing the motor to a different 4 stroke motor out of a street bike and i need some ideas:)

By David Keeso (Argomag) (170.224.224.121) on : Edit

got an 8x8 magnum