By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

A few weeks ago I was surfing eBay. I found two Max ATVs that were new but a year old, unsold. These vehicles were returned to Recreatives from a dealer who didn't (couldn't) sell them. I was suprised to see the factory selling on eBay, but these were returns so I thought it was an acceptable thing to do.
I was on eBay yesterday and saw something I didn't expect. I don't know what to think about this so I ask for your opinion. RI has put up for sale two accessories and a brand new vehicle on eBay. There is a storage cover for $80, far under dealer cost. Also a winch package with a reserve so I don't know the price of that. I could almost overlook these things but there is a brand new vehicle listed right with those items. It is a Max II 23hp with a few accessories, item #2447147490. I won't tell what dealer cost is, but profit is minimal if a dealer were to sell at this price. RI has 13 dealers right there in NY. It is beyond all practical reasoning for the factory to try to sell direct like this. I will be talking to them on Monday but I wanted everyone's view on this.

By Mike Longest on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon

I have been on this site for years, watching and reading when ever I get the chance.
You have did complete turnarounds towards us 6x6 users, from slamming us to being
helpful, from slaming this ROUTE6x6 board to still using it. This is what RI is doing to you dealers.
They consider the unit sold when the DEALER buys it, not if and when the dealer ever
sells it. They will sell in your area. But to be fair, since the dealers are not smart
enough to demand this pratice stop. They are just doing what you are doing, putting
machines on the web and selling to anyone who has money. Yes: dealers are doing that
too, puting machine on the web and selling outside their area.

ARGO too. I shopped around at my fairly local 3 dealers, then I called their
midwest distributor: Orrs Off Road. Yes; they sold me a machine for less money than my
dealers could, so I bought from them, yes this left the dealers without nothing.
But they asked for it, by buying something without sales protection. Yes ARGO does not sell
direct, but their trusted distributors are allowed to, so SCREW THE POOR DEALER.

007 (yes I remember) you have asked for it, I do not mean to be a smart ass, but.

But the real question is why would a person agree to become a dealer, without legal
protection from the companies and their distributors from selling direct? Perhaps
you can answer this? As you have.

I understand you are taking on ARGO, same question: why would a person agree to become a dealer, without legal protection from the companies and their distributors from selling direct? Perhaps you would answer this?

In summary, I am sorry for you as it must be very tiring to promote these vehicles, only
to have your supplier back door you.

Mike Longest

By Howard on Unrecorded Date: Edit

What is this 007 stuff?

Brandon i am too sorry for the dealers, perhaps this is
why there are no real dealers, by real I mean a big dealer with a
proper building and real expenses, as it is now the atv world is
full of hobby dealers, but I guess one can not afford to spend
big money since all the back door dealing goin on. Ouch my a hole
hurts, sorry to you dealers

Howard

By Frank on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon

That is a real horror story.

Remember the old saying what goes around comes around.
Anyway I am sorry for you ATV dealers.

Frank Grinner

By Tim S on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I hate to hear it too. dealers have a hard
enough time selling these new to be dealing
with the big boys selling to anyone
Tim Schmit

By Steve on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon
We too used to try to sell machines many
years ago. We actually caught them selling
one machine in our area, they gave us some
commission and said that is the way it is.
They would pay a commission if they sold
something in our area but WE had to catch
them, some support after we finally sold
out of machine we never reordered, the
Distriubtor kept trying to sell us over and over,
better deals each time. but you know, you
may screw me once but not twice, just be
happy you found out now before youn invested
more time and effort into selling their stuff.
You are welcome to contact me for more
details

Steve Luftus

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon, I don't think you should worry too much about what RI does. If they sell a vehicle in your territory, they will send you a check. They stay in business by selling machines and when we dealers don't buy enough, they have to do something. Don't forget, they offer us special deals every now and then. Have you done the math - that is a better markup than I usually charge, especially taking into account the present dealer offer.

I used to be the only person selling on the web and I gave good deals (probably kept some local dealers from making the sale, but they all had the option to match my price). I sold (and continue to sell on a pretty small margin) because I think we need more max owners. I get disgusted when I lose a sale (I've been undercut quite a few times by latecomers to the web)but that's business in the good old USA and nothing is better for the consumer than having a couple of guys wanting to sell to the same person. Yes, I wish I was still the only person selling over the internet, but I'm not - yet those who buy from me can still get a better deal than most any place else. At least they have true figures to go to their local dealer and work a better deal for themselves (I know of at least five people who were able to buy locally for my price or close to it and save mucho bucks.

I guess what I am trying to say is every and any retail sale of a Max is good for all of us dealers. It helps keep RI in business supplying machines and parts and the more Max owners, the better. Just be thankful that Walmart doesn't sell Max - but actually, think of the repair business we would have with billions of max in circulation.

By bigredwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon,

I saw all of the same E-Bay auctions that you are talking about, including the most recent on going on now! I am also surprised to see that R.I. is offering brand new units for sale on E-Bay. I do not know what their reasoning is for doing this, however, it would seem to make more sense if they would offer the surplus units to the dealers to sell at major discounts just to move them.

I know that amphibious ATV's are quite a bit more expensive than the traditional 4 wheel ATV are, and it takes much effort and time to sell the AATV's versus the traditional ATV's. That is one of the major reason that the 6x6 and 8x8 ATV industry has not taken hold and challenged the traditional 4 wheel ATV industry very affectively. The economy haas been very bad lately, and really has not bounced back yet, that could be a major factor for R.I. offering the new units on E-Bay. I do not aggree with them selling new units on E-Bay and going around their dealers. It would make more sense for them to pick a couple of dealers in each state, and have them list and sell discount units on E-Bay instead.

I do not think any dealer could survive and make any kind of a living on just offering and selling amphibious ATV units. They just do not seem to move very quickly like the 4 wheeler, and snow mobiles, etc. I for one would probably enjoy trying to make ago at offering specially customized Max units for sale in my area, on a part time basis, however, I am not interested in buying three machines up front, and then trying to sell them to get my cash back. Even though I could probably move them, it takes more time because they are higher priced. The way that R.I. and Argo are set up to market and sell units, they put the complete burden and risk on the dealers, and they force you to buy units up front. That would be ok if they provided even more substantial discounts to the dealers, who are taking all the risk and burden.

Another person mentioned the Orr's selling units directly in Indiana, and going around a couple of specific dealers. I like the Orr's, They are very good people, I met them probably more than ten years ago, they have been around a long time, like some of the max dealers have. They are only trying to do the right thing in my opinion, which is put a unit in some ones hands at a decent price, and continue to promote this sport. They did offer and tried to help me, many years ago, when our former Argo distributor was absolutely hosing every one, including the its dealers. The former distributor was marking up all of the Argo units a couple of thousand dollars over the suggested retail price, and selling the units to it s dealers at just about full suggested retail. I called and complained to O.D.G. several times about it, and I could not believe that the dealers were even going a long with it. I would have become a Argo dealer way back then, if it was not for our former distributor's business practices. The reality was that it turned me off so bad, I refused to even buy an Argo or any AATV until recently. Any way, I take my hat off to the Orr's, they did want to quietly help resolve the bad situation at that time. Today that former distributor is now gone, and has been replaced by a new one with much more intergrity. He did not offer me any kind of great discount, when I was again ready to buy a unit, however, he is a straight shooter.

I would still like to become a part time Max dealer and or Argo dealer today, and offer highly customized units to very specific customer, however, I am not willing to fork out my cash up front, and take on all the risks to do that.

Thanks
"bigredwolf"

By bigredwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon,

I know that you are contemplating taking on the Argo produst line, as well as continuing to carry and sell the Max product line. Here is my suggestion and opinion from a business stand point. Do not buy several units from the Argo distributor, and do not buy more units from R.I. to replenish your stock on hand any further. If they want you do continue being a dealer and sell for them, then let them carry the risk and burden for a while. Do not use your own cash, ask them to provide you one unit of each brand, for a demo unit, or you can buy one unit of each brand to keep on hand for demo purposes. Do not use your own cash any more than necessary! Doing it that way, you will limit your risk and exposure with you own cash. If you find that there is a enough good demand for units, then you can later consider buying a couple of more units to keep on hand and meet the demand. Other wise, try to make them use their cash and marketing as much as possible. Do what many of the other dealers do, when some one wants a unit, just order it from the factory, and have it drop shipped as needed.

"bigredwolf"

By bigredwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey Fred, and Brandon,

Just some thoughts and suggestions. During the past several weeks, I have been surfing the net and I have checked out so many web sites of Max dealers, that you would be amazed. Including R.I. web site. To my surprise, I have only found one dealers web site that has listed and talked about the latest factory rebates that has been going on the past couple of months. Brandon I know that your web site does say a couple of words about big discounts, however, the message in my opinion has really not gotten out very well. I have not even saw any real postings here on Route 6x6 talking about the latest great factory rebate deals going on. Man, you guys need to start waving banners or doing some thing more to let people know that right now is the time to buy the Max units. If you want to sell more units, now is the time to do it, do what ever you must do, to get the word out. Any one reading this posted message, get out there and start talking with these dealers, right now is your opportunity to buy a great unit, and get some really nice deals. You will feel great that you saved some substantial cash, and will get a very nice piece of equipment.

Of course I am assuming that the great rebate deals are still going on currently.

"bigredwolf"

By Richard Clark on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Bigredwolf and others:

We have a section on ROUTE6x6 called:
EVENTS & MESSGAES which is for events,
shows, news, messages ect. If any of the
manufacturing companies are interested in
posting news, events, shows, messages ect.
They are more than welcome to do so., All
the main companies have been invited to do
so.

ROUTE6x6 has received more than three
million user hits, many people would be able
to see this EVENTS section. There is nothing
I can do if nothing is sent for posting.

DEALERS : Get your manufacturing
companies to send the national specials,
rebates, deals, ect. in to ROUTE6x6 for
posting, for all to see.

Richard Clark
ROUTE6x6

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

bigredwolf, The reason I don't ever advertise special deals is that people will buy a max when they are "darn good and ready". If someone has made the purchase decision, a reduced price might move them to action, but I have found there is nothing you can do to speed up the sale and price is not the determining factor as long as they get a fair deal. Too often, by the time they have decide to buy, the special deal is off and they get mad at you because they don't believe you when you tell them you sell on dealer cost plus "x" dollars per machine.

I also don't push special deals because the price is usually less than the cost of the machines I have on hand. You don't stay in business very long selling for less than cost. To show you what a bad business man I am, I have several brand new, never driven 1995 and 1996 machines. These are my remaining stock of two 10 machine purchases (one late 1995 and one early 1996 when we had over a three month lag time in getting machines after the order) I made to get shipping costs down and to have machines in stock when the customer was ready to buy. Needless to say, I don't buy in bulk any more - when I have a buyer, I collect the money and make the order. I am slowly working my carry over stock down, but with the economy in Montana depression like, they aren't moving as fast as I would like. What is tough is when there is a special deal and I can order and sell a new machine for less money than what I have sitting here. I do it but I don't like it and true, if I charged more to start with, I could drop the price on what I have in stock. When the prices drop is when your stock really kills you.

I am considering getting a couple of current machines (Max II 850T and Max IV 950T) at the current special dealer price, but with the absence of traffic , I will probably stick with my 900T with tracks as the only current model to look at. You are right about a Max dealership not making enough money to live on. But as long as I am able, I will sell whatever I can and enjoy it. I think the Max is an exceptional vehicle and when one needs what it has to offer, there is no substitute. I just wish more people understood what they are all about.

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I'm glad everyone understands the problem here. RI needs to work toward sending customers to dealers and allowing a profit margin that is actually possible to achieve. No one with a large dealership cares to invest lots of cash to make $100 per vehicle and hope to sell three in a year. As I said before, I do this purely for fun as many 6x6 dealers do. I have sold all my current machines so that is not what I'm worried about. It disappoints me to see RI using such unprofessional and disparate business practices. I have over 13,000 reasons to be concerned about this, and they are all one dollar bills. The bills would be in the form of a check to RI on Monday if this had not happened. I just hope they have a real good reason for this.
I am considering Argo also but their business ways could be the same. I have always thought they have the business part figured out but how to build an off road vehicle still has them puzzled. I would like to hear from those who are Argo dealers or have experience with their business. My distributor is Gene Lintz and I've known him for years. Seems like a great guy to deal with. All suggestions are welcome.

By Mike Longest on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Fred and Brandon

First Fred:

You seem like a kind and nice guy, I thank you for all you input into this board over the many years. From waht you say, I think you have the best business plan. My hat goes off to you.

Second Brandon:

You have really seemed to come around, nice to see that. You questions "All suggestions are welcome" really is nice. I would suggest you read Freds message, which is above yours. Read it again and think about doing business the way Fred does.
Another thought, no slaming intented. But why should someone buy an ARGO from you when they can (and will) buy from Mr Lintz? Think about it? Many people will buy from the distributor, just thinking they are getting a better deal, the Argo mess will not stop untill the comany starts to protect and serve the dealer, not the distributor. Again I am not slamming you, just wanting to to think. Didn't you buy your first Max from Fred, I seem to remember that. If so please think about what he is saying.

Mike Longest

By bigredwolf on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Richard, Fred, Brandon,

It is very obvious, that all of you guys have been doing a great job promoting and supporting the AATV industry. This site, and also your personal dealership web sites are excellent. I am glad that I finally discovered most all of these web sites and forums, and I am glad that I finally changed my mind after many years, and finally decided to buy a new Max unit recently. All of you guys and many others out there are a major asset and the real reason that the AATV's continue to stay around.

Fred I feel for you, knowing that you still have unsold early model units still on hand after so long. Unfortunately you got caught up a huge ecominic down turn, that will take some more time to pull out of. That does not make you a bad business man! It is not possible to accurately predict or anticipate the future. I wish that I were able to pick up one of those early model units from you, however, I am not quite ready a the moment. It is good that you do let people know that you have those units available however, maybe it will help you to move them.

It it is very obvious to me that all of you guys are very good people, and very help full to most any one that needs assistance. Keep up the good work, and with some luck, this economy will get rolling again soon.

My local dealer up here in Michigan, had to resort to going back to driving a truck again, and had to quit being a Max dealer after about 8 years. You guys probably know him well. He still has his web site active, however, he closed up shop for now any way. You know even after he closed up his shop, he still made contact with me, from some where on the road, and still offered to help me in any way, if I needed it. I do hope to see him and his dealership return again some day.

Brandon, you a are a young smart individual, and becomming wiser by the day! Definately do limit your units kept on hand, and the amount of cash that you commit and put out. Badger your distributors and the manufacturers to do more local and national advertising also. They are not doing a very good job of that so far! If you guys are able to get the word out there about the latest R.I. factory rebates, I do think that it will make a difference in your new unit sales. I know that it does not help Fred's situation, however, that is what ultimately lured me in to buy a new unit.

Thanks Guys
"bigredwolf"

By argo dealers' wife on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Brandon,
dont think argo is any different than ri when it comes to being a dealer. and with argo you have a distributor to deal with who can also screw you, and unless you really enjoy it, dont do it, you wont make any money selling argos, you have a good chance though at loosing money.....
since you do not drive an argo, getting parts for dealer cost wouldn't benefit you either, you do not have much of a mark-up on those either. charging labor of 40 to 50 bucks an hour is the only way to clear some decent money, but when most of the machines you work on are for close friends, it is hard to charge that kind of money. My Husband is stocking up on parts and hitting the road in a few months, little profits, no help from the factory, and lots of taking it you know where from the top down has really taken the fun out of this hobby for my spouse and myself. I wouldn't piss around with odg and I would if I were you get a new max that you will want for a long time at dealer cost and hit the road, it isn't worth it, and nobody is gonna change it, more 1 year dealers come along everyday and move a couple machines for the factory, and keep them going, from RI to ODG. And for the orrs haters and lovers, I know the ORRS and bought my first machine from them, and they will be the only people in the midwest we will do business with when my husband is not a dealer anymore. they are the only ones that dont jack their prices. so what if they are the midwest distributor, they know their product, have parts for any model new or old always in stock, and are good people. Our last name is not orr and they are our compatition, and soon they will be our dealer,, again.

By Attex Bob on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Man, this is almost as good as the creeking thread!!!!!

From what I have seen in the business world, there is only two ways to sell goods. #1. Dealerships or #2 Direct marketing. Only one or the other. Period!!!

If you try to do both, you won't stay in business very long!!!! It pisses the dealers off, then they all quit. Then the factory has to sell all of their product. Not good either because you never grow. No growth = death.

Brandon, I heard Extreem Machine is looking for dealers!!!!!! Maybe you can write them a check for 13K??????? Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Thats my 2 cents.

By Jim Stiver - Western PA MAX Dealer (Viper) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

bigredwolf,

I have been a Max dealer for a year now and R.I. has only had one "Special Purchase" that I was able to advertise and that was just recently on overstocked Max IV 900T's. Most of the other "Specials" require the purchase of multiple units and unless a dealer plans on ordering additional stock or is able to package multiple sold orders, we are unable to take advantage of them and therefore do not advertise them. In defense of R.I., I do receive listings of anyone in my territory who has contacted the factory directly and I am given the opportunity to sell them. I have also been paid commissions from R.I. for customers that they have sent "Special Factory Pricing" and have purchased through me. (These units were actually sold below my dealer cost.) I now do not stock any units other than my demo unit and order from the factory when a sale is made. I do believe that this is the only way that I can stay profitable, due to the small margins made on the sale of new machines. I am now getting more involved in the restoration and sale of used machines due to the greater profit margins and higher demand for used machines.

Jim

By Fred Sowerwine, Montana's Max dealer (Fred4dot) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Mike L., Thanks for the nice words.

bigredwolf, Appreciate your comments, but don't feel sorry for me. The Max I hold are like money in the bank. They are paid for and are stored inside and except for the batteries are just as they came from the factory. When I get a buyer, I buy a new battery, fill them with fuel and they are a brand new machine. For those who can't swing a current model machine and want to save about $3000, they make Max ownership possible. I've sold about 65 machines since I began in 1994. Not a lot, but when I started there were a total of 18 Max machines in Montana. What I think is remarkable, is that out of all those machines, I only know of four people who have sold their machines and two of them re-bought. I have had two of my customers die and one of those machines (1995 Max IV 600T loaded with 36 hours and just like new) I purchased from the widow and have in inventory.

I'm semi-retired with a few health problems and the max dealership gives me something to do and a legitimate reason to go have fun. I have had very good treatment from RI and as much support as they can be expected to give. When customer service requires me to go the extra mile, RI has been at my side.

Life couldn't be better.

By Missouri's Max Dealer (Brandon_price) on Unrecorded Date: Edit

I will probably go ahead and order the machines as planned. I am concerned about their direct selling and will get an explaination, but I don't see their sales affecting mine. Like Fred says, RI always stands by the dealer. We are not left out in the cold in any way, and I didn't mean to give that impression.
I don't mind buying the machines up front. To me it is more fun that way. RI gives great prices when I do that so I can get people into the machines for a very low price and still make money from the investment. All businesses should be profitable and I hate to see some dealers having to sell at $50 over cost. If we could all make $2000 per sale, a lot more people would be interested in the Max.

I see a lot of people saying RI and ODG needs more advertisement. I would agree but have found out one important fact. 99% of my personal advertising dollars were a complete waste. I ran large picture ads, the one RI gives out that says "In Mud, In snow, In Water... Incredible" with a picture of the Maxs. A few calls from people in dreamland is all you get. I also spent five days at a fair and several hundred dollars. Nothing out of that and I think fairs attract the wrong crowd. Sure it is possible for either of these advertising ways to produce a sale, but dollar for dollar it isn't worth it. Television commercials is the only way I see to get good exposure. Of course then we are talking big bucks.
My web site has been a miracle maker for me. Very few dollars spent (although many hours of time) and it gets results. I think the best thing we can all do is get out there and promote the sport by riding. Gary (bigredwolf) has said how much people like to look at his machine on the trailer and talk to him about it whenever possible. The general public knows nothing of these machines and showing it to them is the best way to get more AATVs on the trail.

By Bud on Unrecorded Date: Edit

Hey, Brandon, have you considered printing up business cards to pass out when people inquire about your rig? If you have a few, drop me some in the mail and I will be glad to hand them out when I have the opportunity.

Business is a two way street; take care of customers like you do and we will be glad to refer business your way. I am sure that other AATV dealers could benefit from a similar strategy.

Bud